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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Yes, there is
    Haha, love it!
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Let loot be loot.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickinator View Post
    You want people with the same mindset. Doesnt matter if its mythic or not.
    People can understand that.
    a guild wont survive long if people dont have the same mindset, sooner or later people leave and at some point not even recruitment will be enough to keep it together.
    This. It doesn’t matter whether your a casual, hardcore, world first, or just a bunch of friends, you want everyone on the same page .. and this goes for retail and classic

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    its not a "Mythic mindset" this is an athlete midset "to be the best"
    I have been doing bodybuilding for 11 years and have this attitude in everything i do and this attitude takes you very far in real life too

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Think of it like a sport.

    Some play sports to win.
    Exercise, eat healthily, get extra sleep be4 matches, watches professional players play and study what they do right/wrong, pays some extra money for the best/most fitting equipment, practice coordinated play and adapt to the role they have been assigned on the field.

    And then you have the other mindset of ppl who play sport for the fun. They dont do all the above side "chores", instead they mostly show up for practice because they know there will be beer and sauna afterwards. On the field they may decide to try hold on to the ball a little longer than they should. They dont optimize their days with the matches in mind but instead party as much as they like the day be4. They are there to have fun and share a laugh, winning is a secondary objective.
    exactly
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-02-18 at 01:53 PM.

  4. #24
    High Overlord LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    its not a "Mythic mindset" this is an athlete midset "to be the best"
    I have been doing bodybuilding for 11 years and have this attitude in everything i do and this attitude takes you very far in real life too

    exactly
    True but willpower is a real thing you can actually measure and need to manage.

    When i give it my all in my career and at the gym after that, i simply don't invest and care as much while relaxing in the evening hours with some WoW or whatever other game.
    And im pretty sure this is the common consensus.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    True but willpower is a real thing you can actually measure and need to manage.

    When i give it my all in my career and at the gym after that, i simply don't invest and care as much while relaxing in the evening hours with some WoW or whatever other game.
    And im pretty sure this is the common consensus.
    Well, when I'm done benching 450 pounds at the gym (people on WOW forums use the weirdest flexes), I DO want a challenge in my video games.

    And what do you mean by "manage willpower"? Are you referring to absconding from the grinds through "willpower", despite the fact that there are clear gains in character power to be made?

    Have you EVER met a WOW player besides yourself? You don't speak for the community and don't know what the "common consensus" is. When it was announced that Anima in ShadowLands wouldn't be infinitely grindable like AP, the crowd cheered more loudly than for anything else in the expansion reveal. That indicates to me that you're NOT in the consensus of the community nor Blizzard's realization that infinite grindability is disliked overall and also harmful to the game. I told them this same thing (along with many others) a month into Legion, but the Blizz dev team is fucking dumb so it takes them years to realize what is obvious to any long term player.

  6. #26
    Weeb Queen Video Games's Avatar
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    My mindset is just dont be bad so i can do the content i have to pay every month to even do.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    ...or why you can't handwave away endless grinds, RNG gearing and spec disparity as "it only matters for the top 0.1%".

    There is no "I" in team. If you're a mythic raider, you are playing for the team first and for yourself second. That means if you have spare time to play, you feel compelled to do the thing that will help your guild progress further rather than the thing that you find "fun". Why do pet battles when you can grind more AP for stronger essences? Why collect transmog when you can grind M+ to get optimum corruption set up? Why play a worse spec when you can play a superior-performing spec?

    Sure, you could technically succeed in mythic without the level of hyperoptimization explained above but let's be honest with ourselves. Is someone who plays for themselves alone going to scrub logs to correct every little mistake? Or be okay with being benched for progress? Or reroll when asked to? No, of course they won't.

    There is no difference between the top 10% and the top 0.1% as far as their mindset goes. It's the "mythic raider" mindset. The willingness to pursue every improvement you can to help your team progress further, no matter how small. The difference comes from technical skill and that improves with years and years of play.

    So the argument that "it matters only for the top 0.1%" is complete and utter BS because every mythic raider worth his/her salt is going to have the team first, me second mindset. And if you don't have that mindset, your guild won't make it far because the people that do have that mindset will eventually get fed up and quit for a better guild. Maybe minor improvements from optimizing corruptions and pushing neck levels don't really matter much for one particular boss. But when everyone in your guild has the correct mindset and keeps pursuing every little minor improvement, all of them together add up quickly and make for a strong raiding team. Endless AP grinds, RNG gearing and class / spec performance disparity affect all mythic raiders equally.
    I agree with you about the "team first" mindset. I would disagree with the 10% part. Maybe the top 10% of raiders have the "team first" mindset, but not 10% of the population that plays WoW. You can't forget- there are many people that don't raid at all. If you look at the raid completion numbers, I think they are close to 20% overall, and that's the easier difficulties included and far more players complete the lower difficulties than mythic.

    I think, when people post that 1% number- they are referring to overall population of the game. I am not sure what % of the total WoW population routinely completes Mythic- I have never seen any numbers on it. I think it is probably more than 1% but I don't think it would be 10% of the population. It's hard to tell because I think Blizz also plays games with the numbers so that the game shows higher numbers than the actual number of active players. So, it's hard to get an accurate count.

    Its also complicated by the fact that there are some players with that mind set that don't raid mythic because of circumstances in their life. Personally, I don't raid mythic but I think they should keep the endless grinds, rng gearing and spec disparity. Why not? Let the people that like that type of stuff do them and if its not your cup of tea- you can just do something else. I really don't think designing an "endless" grind or "rng gearing" take up a lot of dev time or resources. One of the things I like about this game is that there is a ton of stuff in it and different things for different people. I think that is why it is so successful, so they shouldn't do away with it.

  8. #28
    Look for people that set similiar limits to your own, problem solved.

    If you don't want to grind for AP, look for others that feel the same, it's just less likely to meet those people the higher you move up the ladder.
    At a certain point, you can't expect that people that have a more casual attitude somehow compensate this, it's a question of expectation of you want to play the game.
    You can't expect to give a pass on every potential advantage but then also expect to clear a raid within weeks (or within the first ~3 months) after release.

    Want to know why systems such as AP or corruption are a problem?
    They're not fun progression systems, it's that simple.

    It wasn't fun before 8.2 to regrind AP each patch via content that you've done multiple times before in order to unlock a slightly superior version of Azerite traits that you've previously had.
    Or to unlock some minor stats / damage boost via minor traits.

    Same goes for corruption, it's just not fun that a decent chunk of your character power simply lies outside of your control.

    A lot of these issues would disappear on their own if the overall acquisition of character power is more fun.

  9. #29
    High Overlord LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    Well, when I'm done benching 450 pounds at the gym (people on WOW forums use the weirdest flexes), I DO want a challenge in my video games.

    And what do you mean by "manage willpower"? Are you referring to absconding from the grinds through "willpower", despite the fact that there are clear gains in character power to be made?

    Have you EVER met a WOW player besides yourself? You don't speak for the community and don't know what the "common consensus" is. When it was announced that Anima in ShadowLands wouldn't be infinitely grindable like AP, the crowd cheered more loudly than for anything else in the expansion reveal. That indicates to me that you're NOT in the consensus of the community nor Blizzard's realization that infinite grindability is disliked overall and also harmful to the game. I told them this same thing (along with many others) a month into Legion, but the Blizz dev team is fucking dumb so it takes them years to realize what is obvious to any long term player.
    With that i mean that I, and most players of WoW are not as invested into the game as in their career/social life/etc, all of that takes energy away and wow/videogames might not be a priority here.
    Else there would be a lot more mythic raiders/keystone pushing players.

    Im pretty sure most players don't push themselves and just relax in video games, even super competitive games like League have a huge for fun and aram community.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If you're a mythic raider, you are playing for the team first and for yourself second.
    Is the team paying your sub? I bet they're not paying your sub!

    I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. I suppose I appreciate the perspective, but it always comes back to this. The game is subbed to one account at a time, and the high end raider *IS* an outlier perspective. It's just... it's the truth.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    And what do you mean by "manage willpower"? Are you referring to absconding from the grinds through "willpower", despite the fact that there are clear gains in character power to be made?

    Have you EVER met a WOW player besides yourself? You don't speak for the community and don't know what the "common consensus" is. When it was announced that Anima in ShadowLands wouldn't be infinitely grindable like AP, the crowd cheered more loudly than for anything else in the expansion reveal. That indicates to me that you're NOT in the consensus of the community nor Blizzard's realization that infinite grindability is disliked overall and also harmful to the game. I told them this same thing (along with many others) a month into Legion, but the Blizz dev team is fucking dumb so it takes them years to realize what is obvious to any long term player.
    To me, the Willpower is to accept that, while there are power gains, each gain is incredibly marginal, and thus not an OUTRIGHT necessity. Yes, you could grind non-stop, but how much do you have to do for an actual, truly noticeable change that will make a difference? Watching parts of the Method stream, it was evident that not every member of their group pushed the limits of AP grinding. Some got the essence slot, which is the main benefit, and that was it, while others continued grinding AP as much as they could.

    This extends to a lot more people than just Mythic raiders though. I know a player who raids normal who feel compelled to do a load of islands every week cause he "has to push his neck". Yes, each neck level makes him stronger by some amount, it's not deniable, but it's a matter of whether or not the levels actually translate to enough of an overall difference. If WF guilds are managing with core raiders (even if some choose to do so) not doing such things, then I wager no one else NEEDS to either. It's just a personal preference.

  12. #32
    op is almost right about mindset expectation, but i dont think a full post was necessary.
    Mindset and dedication are still step 2 of a mythic raider, step 1 is pure skill.
    think about this: if you give at all player all the same top bis equip and stats, what % will complete a mythic raid?
    there is a lot of silled player that dont want to dedicate much time, and a lot of not so skilled always online.
    ppl are just ppl

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    ...or why you can't handwave away endless grinds, RNG gearing and spec disparity as "it only matters for the top 0.1%".

    There is no "I" in team. If you're a mythic raider, you are playing for the team first and for yourself second. That means if you have spare time to play, you feel compelled to do the thing that will help your guild progress further rather than the thing that you find "fun". Why do pet battles when you can grind more AP for stronger essences? Why collect transmog when you can grind M+ to get optimum corruption set up? Why play a worse spec when you can play a superior-performing spec?

    Sure, you could technically succeed in mythic without the level of hyperoptimization explained above but let's be honest with ourselves. Is someone who plays for themselves alone going to scrub logs to correct every little mistake? Or be okay with being benched for progress? Or reroll when asked to? No, of course they won't.

    There is no difference between the top 10% and the top 0.1% as far as their mindset goes. It's the "mythic raider" mindset. The willingness to pursue every improvement you can to help your team progress further, no matter how small. The difference comes from technical skill and that improves with years and years of play.

    So the argument that "it matters only for the top 0.1%" is complete and utter BS because every mythic raider worth his/her salt is going to have the team first, me second mindset. And if you don't have that mindset, your guild won't make it far because the people that do have that mindset will eventually get fed up and quit for a better guild. Maybe minor improvements from optimizing corruptions and pushing neck levels don't really matter much for one particular boss. But when everyone in your guild has the correct mindset and keeps pursuing every little minor improvement, all of them together add up quickly and make for a strong raiding team. Endless AP grinds, RNG gearing and class / spec performance disparity affect all mythic raiders equally.
    I raid Mythic, I play for me. If I'm not having fun, I'm not playing. If you're not in the world first guilds and you're playing for the team instead of yourself you're just being exploited tbh.

    The needs of the other 95% of the playerbase are going to come before us. We're not going anywhere unless some competition for Blizzard offers something on par with Mythic raiding (unlikely) we're not going anywhere and Blizzard can screw us over a bit for the greater good.

    Other people essentially aren't even playing the same game we are, so boning them to benefit us is pretty stupid, especially since we're such a small minority.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there?| FOR THE HORDE | I might make you angry but I'm right.

  14. #34
    About the "It's just top players' problems"
    I mean...
    Up until WoD being raid ready, doing the daily chores and pursuing the best gear was a cakewalk compared to what we have since. The only exra thing was to not leave your computer for 2 weeks when a new raid opened. Now it's EXPONENTIALLY more.
    But then we got Legion and now, BfA. And in my opinion "top players' problems" is just that: top players' problems. I stopped heroic/mythic raiding because of it, tops remained. They continue to play and bitch. The game is not getting better in this regard, if anything it gets worse and worse (more and more time consuming with less and less guaranteed results).

    And then let's think about it. What was WoW streaming before Legion "wq map clears on 3 alts", "pushing mythic 15", "farming maw for ap", "hc clears on 6 alts", "boosting people for gold"?

    I can't symphatize with this because no one else can stand up and say enough is enough, but them. Doing whatever the devs make them to do is not mythic mindset. It's social pressure if anything. (Like imagine trusting your future on today's blizz as a PvE esport player, ouch)
    What was the "mythic mindset" (heroic I suppose) in BC? WotLK? Cata? Compared to Legion/BfA? Top players used to have one or 2 alts. Maybe. The guild boosted these alts for guaranteed gear in the raids. Oh wow. I want those days back btw. But you can't have both "lol, streaming gives me money so I stream daily 6 hours" and "I want simple game back".
    Imagine your famous streaming daily life in WotLK. "Okay, I'm gonna do the argent tournament dailies for giggles, because we don't have raid tonight" 15 mins later -> "aaaaand it's done, stream is over, see you tomorrow!"

    You can't have infinite progression (m+, AP) without infinite progression. "Hardcores" were so in love with both of these systems. "AMG FINULLY HARD 5 MAN CONTENT FOR OP GEAR!" Until it turned out just how infinite it is...


    Imagine if in a dream the top 30-50 guild would stand up as one and said "fuck this, we're out till this nonsense is in the game!" It's not like the top 51th guild would suddenly clear it in 2 weeks. (esp without getting strats on a silver plate). The top could rise up, but they just don't, because "we do whatever it takes". Well then...

    Edit: oh and then not to forget how you have basically 2 horses in the top race, who have the time and willingness to do whatever it takes, they have all the gold in the world to buy up boe gear in the whole region, they have fans who donate everything and anything. So I don't even know what the other guilds are doing or hoping for. If anyone would tell me to do the same whatever the top 2 does in Legion/Bfa but without even having the slightest chance to be on that level unless I get recruited by them, I'd say lol, no thank you.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-02-19 at 05:11 AM.

  15. #35
    You didn't actually demonstrate why that claim is wrong though. You just demonstrated it. Your claim is basically, " 'it only matters for the top 0.1%' is completely accurate, but we should change the game for them anyway."

    We've seen what that mindset does without any such mechanics in classic: They beat Molten Core within a week. And then what? Wait around for the next raid tier where they do the exact same thing.

    For the more average player, everything you mentioned gives them more to do. I loved the Legion "horrible endless AP grind" because when I wanted to stop grinding, I stopped grinding. I didn't grind myself into dust and misery out of some obsession with maximum efficiency. Because I knew how exponential curves worked.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-02-19 at 02:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    you don't get it

    Beating the hardest content the game has to offer is fun
    Getting challenged is fun
    Playing as a team with people who trust you and you know you can trust is very fun
    Aiming towards a common goal with likeminded people is fun

    So yes,it means we have to keep ourselves up to a certain standard and go through tedious stuff in order to do so,but the enjoyment payout is well worth it in the end

  17. #37
    That... Is horribly wrong. What you described is the type of player that's in a "Must clear as fast as possible" mythic guild, which is farrrrr less than 10% of the player base. The majority of guilds that clear mythic, my own included, are far more relaxed than that. You can clear mythic raids before the next comes out without getting every little upgrade as fast as possible. I used to raid, now I don't, so I get both sides of the coin. It is fun to be challenged and work as a team to beat the hardest content, but equally, it's extremely draining. I'm now at the point where that play style doesn't interest me at all, I'm far more casual these days and honestly, looking at what some people do put in at the top levels, just baffles me how it can be enjoyable. Sure beating the content is satisfying, but honestly the more grinds and things they put in, the less and less the reward seems to overcome the prep work people feel the need to put in.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    But you can't have both "lol, streaming gives me money so I stream daily 6 hours" and "I want simple game back".
    I wish they would stop making game for "steamers" "e-sport players" "world first racers" and all that 0.1%. Normal people don't have time nor interest to sink 40h a week into 1 game. There are hundreds of other games and there are hundreds of other hobbies and past times to do except gaming. You shouldn't be forced to choose between forsaking all your interests outside of wow and participating in non-trashy content. 90% of wow content is trash but vast majority of it is tied to progression systems that non-trash content is tuned around players having.

  19. #39
    This thread reads like a guy hard stuck in mid-Silver on League of Legends trying to explain the "Diamond/Challenger mentality" to his fellow hard stuck Silver players.

    There is no "Mythic raider mindset," only labels you place on other people so you can feel better about the way you play the game vs. the way other people play the game. It's okay, man. I used to be like that, too. I looked down on the peons who didn't give a shit about Purple/Orange parses on WCL. I tried to help them. I'd straight up evacuate players from my groups mid-pull if they failed mechanics. I'd laugh at the angry message I'd inevitably get for being an insufferable douche. It was fun. But then... I just stopped caring. And I became the very thing I used to revile. Now, as a casual shitlord I see the game through an entirely different lens. It's still fun to pretend, but it's grossly arrogant to assume that just because somebody isn't actively trying to be a DPS/tanking/healing God that they're somehow a lesser species.

    WoW is many different things to many different people. I think, ultimately, we're all looking to get the same sense of satisfaction from the game. We can all coexist without sectioning ourselves from one another.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2020-02-19 at 03:34 AM.

  20. #40
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    I don't want to understand it. I just want things to go back to how they were in Wrath with raids. Is that really asking too much?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    This is like a guy hard stuck in mid-Silver on League of Legends trying to explain the "Diamond/Challenger mentality" to his fellow hard stuck silver players.

    There is no "Mythic raider mindset," only labels you place on other people so you can feel better about the way you play the game vs. the way other people play the game. It's okay, man. I used to be like that, too. I looked down on the peons who didn't give a shit about Purple/Orange parses on WCL. I tried to help them. I'd straight up evacuate players from my groups mid-pull if they failed mechanics. I'd laugh at the angry message I'd inevitably get for being an insufferable douche. It was fun. But then... I just stopped caring. And I became the very thing I used to revile. Now, as a casual shitlord I see the game through an entirely different lens. It's still fun to pretend, but it's grossly arrogant to assume that just because somebody isn't actively trying to be a DPS God that they're somehow a lesser species.
    I like you, seem to be a good human being. Congratulations!

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