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  1. #41
    WoW is pretty easy if you follow these guidelines:

    1. Assemble a team of 5 people that want to push m+ keys.
    2. Push them hard the first couple of weeks m+ is available in the new raid tier until you outgear almost all the content.
    3. Coast from there because you will be ahead of about 95% of the playerbase for the rest of the patch.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    There is no difference between the top 10% and the top 0.1% as far as their mindset goes. It's the "mythic raider" mindset.


    It's an insult to say that the top 10% share the same mindset as the top 0.1%

  3. #43
    From what I read I am quite unsure to what kind of issue everyone refers as mythic raider mindset:

    a) Wasting extensive hours of lifetime on grindings reputation, items, gold, AP, ...
    b) Strieving to solve the hardest encounters / riddles ingame
    c) putting the groups need before yours

    All those apply to a lot of "casuals" as well. I have seen casuals handing out loot to others because the difference in item level was more helpful to those (thats a huge reason why people get back to classic cause you can use crap blues instead of epixxx). Half of the hidden/secret easteregg community is casual. And a lot of (unemployed) casuals waste a lot of time on grinds. Still most of them will never or don't want to ever raid Mythic or aiming for high mythic keys.

    The only real distinguishing element is the aim to strieve for perfection. Mythic+ raiders tend to spend enormous amounts of time to perfect a certain encounter or route through a dungeon or interaction with game elements or their character. The aim to get the best out of the character for one specific goal - which sometimes requires to do a certain grind as early as possible (because at that point half of the mechanics are still broken or allow clever use of game mechanics aka 15 warlocks on uunat). You could give a mythic+ raider a shitty toon character in fixed circumstances and he would still blast half the casual raid.
    But is within their mind that - when aiming for the maximum - they will reroll to certain classes if necessary or do a particular stupid game element over and over again.

    However there is a HUGE change in Mythic+ mindset within the last 3-4 years: I have never seen sooooo many raiders multiboxxing. Even the ones with only 3-4 toons (instead of 12) tend to have multiple accounts - due to the way the lootsystem works now. One could assume that half the MAU in WoW are multiboxed accounts if not more when you count for farm bots or m+ raiders.
    And: A lot of Mythic+ raiders have been very very vocal about the disappointment in raid fights especially repetitive elements or class stacking. I mean there was a lot of mumbling in WoD but the open discussion on Ny'alotha being the "worst raid tier ever" is quite... astounding.

    Regarding 0.1% vs 10%:
    Well there are alot of mythic raiders who won't go for blizzards shitty time waste grinds. half of my guild are not interested and we "casually" raid mythic (2days 3h). We killed Lady Ashvane in week 3 and are currently working on Ra-den.... None of us went for Echoing Void or other cheesy items. I guess it is not so much about the time you invest but rather the ability to adapt to a fight.
    Last edited by Alduin; 2020-02-19 at 03:39 AM.

  4. #44
    Change the mindset? are you a couch or something?

  5. #45
    Bloodsail Admiral rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    no, you're not alone in that mindset, and it's for that reason that you will never get a spot in a mythic raiding guild that clears the raid every tier, because unless you are willing to put the time in that is necessary to perform at the level required of you to clear that level of content while it's current, then you can forget about being taken seriously in a high end raiding guild, and sadly the majority of people share your mindset, which is the main reason that with the dwindling player population globally it's become harder and harder to recruit decent enough players to fill even a mid level raiding guild that can clear mythic before the tier ends.

    to answer the question the OP has asked:

    the 'mythic raider mindset' is this, you dedicate time to empower your main character to the highest it can be before raid night each week, so for this expansion that means neck level grinding, that also means getting a minimum M+ 15 per week for the weekly cache rewards, alongside that you have simmed your main character to get the best gear combination available to you at the time ready, and do all the above mentioned for any alts the guild may require you to have also, this is something that hasn't changed since the introduction of 'hardmode' raiding where the requirements were slightly different to fit the scope of the expansion therein but the mindset remained the same, you are expected to put in significantly more effort than average 'transmog jane' who only logs in to do the one thing she has logged in that day to do and nothing more, they killed 'raid logging' back in WoD, and nailed that coffin shut in legion, gone are the days you can get away with just turning up and raiding without any extra effort if you plan to clear any current level mythic content.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    they killed 'raid logging' back in WoD, and nailed that coffin shut in legion, gone are the days you can get away with just turning up and raiding without any extra effort if you plan to clear any current level mythic content.
    Usually there was a list of chores to do before raid in every expansion. The list before WoD however is simply incomparable to Legion or BfA. You might as well call everyone from before WoD transmog Jane if you compare it to Legion/BfA chores, even BC attunements. I, for one simply stopped raiding altogether, because this was not what I "agreed on" with this game when I started to play, and I refused to give more time into the same activity.

    The "whatever it takes" mindset didn't change. The amount of stuff to call it "whatever" has changed drastically - and the circle-social pressure that came with it ("But the guild before us does this so should we!"). And then the "top" should decide already whether they like this or not. Bragging with "we do whatever it takes!" and then turn around and say "AND WE HATE IT!" is not gonna help them or anyone.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-02-19 at 05:52 AM.

  7. #47
    Isnt it interesting that some have decided there is no range for levels of mythic raiders.

    6/12 normal? all good, no rush, enjoy normal!
    6/12 heroic? all good, no rush, enjoy heroic!
    6/12 mythic? OMFG WHY DO YOU EVEN PLAY??!!!one!!!1!!!! IF YOU FARMED 10 HOURS A DAY YOU WOULD TOTALLY BE 12/12 YOU ARE PLAYING The GAME WRONG YOU SUCK!!!

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Usually there was a list of chores to do before raid in every expansion. The list before WoD however is simply incomparable to Legion or BfA. You might as well call everyone from before WoD transmog Jane if you compare it to Legion/BfA chores, even BC attunements. I, for one simply stopped raiding altogether, because this was not what I "agreed on" with this game when I started to play, and I refused to give more time into the same activity.

    The "whatever it takes" mindset didn't change. The amount of stuff to call it "whatever" has changed drastically - and the circle-social pressure that came with it ("But the guild before us does this so should we!"). And then the "top" should decide already whether they like this or not. Bragging with "we do whatever it takes!" and then turn around and say "AND WE HATE IT!" is not gonna help them or anyone.
    for the most part i agree with everything you say, however the attunements/food/world buffs of classic/TBC were barely anything i would consider as being extra, and it was blizzard that started the whole thing when they had such ludicrous 'limited attempts' bullshit in TOGC and then followed it up again in ICC which is when the current 'grind' for top end really started and it was paragon that set the standard at the time and it has simply followed on since then, in cata it was the 'archeology' grind getting the staff for casters and the sword for dps warriors/paladins along with all the profession crafted epics/consumables etc, in MoP it was getting every rep to exalted to buy the 'pre raid BiS' epics from the vendor and log in every day to do the mind numbing fucking dailies, dunno about WoD as i was out of the game at that point and then for legion it was getting to rank 51 artifact level before it got removed and replaced with a new paragon trait the next tier and so on, now we have the neck and everything else alongside that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Isnt it interesting that some have decided there is no range for levels of mythic raiders.

    6/12 normal? all good, no rush, enjoy normal!
    6/12 heroic? all good, no rush, enjoy heroic!
    6/12 mythic? OMFG WHY DO YOU EVEN PLAY??!!!one!!!1!!!! IF YOU FARMED 10 HOURS A DAY YOU WOULD TOTALLY BE 12/12 YOU ARE PLAYING The GAME WRONG YOU SUCK!!!
    there's the top end, which consistently get the 'hall of fame' spots every tier and have been around that level for many expansions.

    then there's the ones that clear the instance while current but rarely do so with enough time to farm it sufficiently for mounts/titles/gear etc/

    there's the ones that barely kill the last boss before the next tier/expansion releases.

    there's the ones that start the instance early hit the 'wall' boss and never get past it.

    there's the ones that kill the first couple of 'easy' bosses and think they are mythic raiders when in reality they are heroic mode raiders who are too powerful for heroic so need to step into mythic for gear/challenge.

    and finally there's the ones that have no clue what mythic is and will never have any idea because they barely know how to play the game well enough to really get invited anyway.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    for the most part i agree with everything you say, however the attunements/food/world buffs of classic/TBC were barely anything i would consider as being extra, and it was blizzard that started the whole thing when they had such ludicrous 'limited attempts' bullshit in TOGC and then followed it up again in ICC which is when the current 'grind' for top end really started and it was paragon that set the standard at the time and it has simply followed on since then, in cata it was the 'archeology' grind getting the staff for casters and the sword for dps warriors/paladins along with all the profession crafted epics/consumables etc, in MoP it was getting every rep to exalted to buy the 'pre raid BiS' epics from the vendor and log in every day to do the mind numbing fucking dailies, dunno about WoD as i was out of the game at that point and then for legion it was getting to rank 51 artifact level before it got removed and replaced with a new paragon trait the next tier and so on, now we have the neck and everything else alongside that.
    TBC attunements were a thing afaik. Reps were a thing for profession patterns (bop crafted gear) and rep vendor gear and shoulder enchants in TBC, which required players to engage with the world, not to mention ingredients farming to be able to craft those. Daily heroics for various reasons was a thing in TBC. Mop's "fucking dailies" was the peak for me. It was a step up from before, but nothing new, really (Cata had many starter factions with just as many dailies and I kinda remember having to pick from the starter factions because of the 25 daily limit? Maybe I misremember).
    Yeah WoD dropped the ball on basically every non-raid-y front.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-02-19 at 07:23 AM.

  10. #50
    My head hurts.

    If you are rush to the top mythic guild your worry is hardcore players (they will push for optimization themselves)
    if you are rush to get achievement guild your worry is people actually showing up in Thursday on-time for your 3 hours raid.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    I wish they would stop making game for "steamers" "e-sport players" "world first racers" and all that 0.1%. Normal people don't have time nor interest to sink 40h a week into 1 game. There are hundreds of other games and there are hundreds of other hobbies and past times to do except gaming. You shouldn't be forced to choose between forsaking all your interests outside of wow and participating in non-trashy content. 90% of wow content is trash but vast majority of it is tied to progression systems that non-trash content is tuned around players having.
    So how exactly do you suggest they do that? World First Race is not an official Blizzard event, it's something created by the players and only since BFA. The fact that it exists didn't change anything in the design - not only because it was never officially supported, but also because it's far too recent to have impact on developers' decisions.

    The game works as it always did - the top players put insane amount of hours into raiding and finish the hardest boss within two weeks. Everyone else takes proportionally longer, including people who never get Cutting Edge. This was always the case and nothing changed. If anything, it's become more accessible than ever, with numerous catchup mechanics, non raid content offering good rewards, multiple difficulty levels. For the vast majority of people, WFR doesn't matter and they don't even know it exists.

  12. #52
    mythic raider mindset : wasting your life taking seriously something not important.

  13. #53
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnacheV View Post
    mythic raider mindset : wasting your life taking seriously something not important.
    Well, we can't all be curing cancer, solving world hunger and posting on video game forums like you do.

  14. #54
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Reading through this i really wonder how Blizzard determines the amount of work/chores you should optimally do for a mythic guild that is able to clear the raid before the next one.
    Same for the difficulty and amount of players that "should" be done with mythic before the next raid, so a question of how accessible it should be in their eyes.

    I wonder that because i had no problems clearing mythic in WoD in a good time but don't even care to raid heroic or normal now because of the amount of chores.
    After all, Mythic might be the hardest mmorpg pve endcontent out there right now but it's still not on the level of high mmr chess, sc2 or dota/lol.

    Then again an rpg should also reward time invested and not only pure skill and mastery of your character and the fight... i would just love to know how these things are set by the devs.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    Then again an rpg should also reward time invested and not only pure skill and mastery of your character and the fight... i would just love to know how these things are set by the devs.
    The time investment to level your character, gear them up through dungeons, then maintain them weekly (fill your weekly badge quota, for example) was PLENTY for me. I would say it was PLENTY for probably 80-90% of the playerbase. Unfortunately the "THERE'S NOTHING TO DO!!" no lifers who hadn't even cleared the current heroic raid (bc frankly they weren't that skilled) were VERY vocal.

    We have seen the result of designing for these types of players in both Legion and BFA. The result isn't good in my eyes. Should we be surprised Blizzard has decided to significantly dial back the effect of RNG heavy gear distribution along with ending infinite grindability for end game progression? The shocking part to me is that some people still defend Legion and BFA systems design.

    TLDR - Time investment has ALWAYS been a thing. That DOES NOT mean the amount of time investment required to maintain a raid ready character has not changed. It HAS CHANGED... and IT HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY. The degree of time investment is the question. Not whether it should be or has always been there.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    The time investment to level your character, gear them up through dungeons, then maintain them weekly (fill your weekly badge quota, for example) was PLENTY for me. I would say it was PLENTY for probably 80-90% of the playerbase. Unfortunately the "THERE'S NOTHING TO DO!!" no lifers who hadn't even cleared the current heroic raid (bc frankly they weren't that skilled) were VERY vocal.

    We have seen the result of designing for these types of players in both Legion and BFA. The result isn't good in my eyes. Should we be surprised Blizzard has decided to significantly dial back the effect of RNG heavy gear distribution along with ending infinite grindability for end game progression? The shocking part to me is that some people still defend Legion and BFA systems design.

    TLDR - Time investment has ALWAYS been a thing. That DOES NOT mean the amount of time investment required to maintain a raid ready character has not changed. It HAS CHANGED... and IT HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY. The degree of time investment is the question. Not whether it should be or has always been there.
    I don't disagree with the jist of what you're saying, I would gladly go back to reasonable amount of daily activities, but why do you think this is because of "nothing to do"-ers? I mean come on. This, what we have now since Legion is directly profitable for blizzard. In WoD, they came out and said "yeah we're not gonna report subscribers anymore because there is a more important metric: MAU". And then we got Legion and then, BfA. What a coincidence.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I don't disagree with the jist of what you're saying, I would gladly go back to reasonable amount of daily activities, but why do you think this is because of "nothing to do"-ers? I mean come on. This, what we have now since Legion is directly profitable for blizzard. In WoD, they came out and said "yeah we're not gonna report subscribers anymore because there is a more important metric: MAU". And then we got Legion and then, BfA. What a coincidence.
    If BFA and Legion systems design was so successful, how do you explain the 180 degree pivot for ShadowLands?

    Do you know that they specifically stated that they didn't like RNG distribution of Legiondaries and are moving to a deterministic system for SL and that they are also doing away with infinitely grindable systems like AP? How can those things be both successful for Blizz yet be put in the trash bin by Blizz?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    If BFA and Legion systems design was so successful, how do you explain the 180 degree pivot for ShadowLands?

    Do you know that they specifically stated that they didn't like RNG distribution of Legiondaries and are moving to a deterministic system for SL and that they are also doing away with infinitely grindable systems like AP? How can those things be both successful for Blizz yet be put in the trash bin by Blizz?
    I don't remember them saying they didn't like the RNG legiondaries. otherwise it wouldn't have been the way to get them until the last patch.
    If they didn't like the inifinte AP grind, why force it for 2 expansions?
    You are smarter than this. The playerbase has a fatigue with systems like infinite AP grind. Which we don't even know too much about regards SL. We only know promises. Promises like "fine, no more titanforging nonsense, here's corruption gear that's so much less rng!". Right? Come on.
    BfA has flopped big time. They are forced to do something else. If they'd say: hey, shadowlands gonna have the same AP grind as BfA or Legion, people would run away in masses probably.
    No need to frame the players for this. This is all business perspective.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I don't remember them saying they didn't like the RNG legiondaries. otherwise it wouldn't have been the way to get them until the last patch.
    If they didn't like the inifinte AP grind, why force it for 2 expansions?
    You are smarter than this. The playerbase has a fatigue with systems like infinite AP grind. Which we don't even know too much about regards SL. We only know promises. Promises like "fine, no more titanforging nonsense, here's corruption gear that's so much less rng!". Right? Come on.
    BfA has flopped big time. They are forced to do something else. If they'd say: hey, shadowlands gonna have the same AP grind as BfA or Legion, people would run away in masses probably.
    No need to frame the players for this. This is all business perspective.
    You make zero sense so I'm ending with this:

    The blizz dev team is stupid, slow to change, and solicits zero feedback from the community (alpha and betas are for marketing and free testing from their community, but they have no interest in feedback about systems design). That's why it takes two expansions for them to realize something any somewhat intelligent person can see from the announcement of the idea.

    Read the ShadowLands features announcement where they specifically say they didn't like Legiondary distribution (and btw, Ion said it wasn't a problem in Legion, lol, stupid leading stupid). Read where they say Anima won't be infinitely grindable. How you think these systems are good and liked yet so cancerous to the future of ShadowLands that they had to get rid of them is truly mind boggling. Your justification skills are impressive but easy to see through for anyone with an IQ above 80.

  20. #60
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Dude, there is no difference between normal and mythic raiders. They are the same people, it is all a matter of time investment.

    Been there, done that. Now, after 15 years playing, I don´t feel like wow should be a 2 hours per day grinding job, so I chill out on HC raiding. You can not do that on mythic, you have to grind everything cause that 1% makes a difference.

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