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  1. #1

    Helping non-mythic raiders understand mythic raider mindset

    ...or why you can't handwave away endless grinds, RNG gearing and spec disparity as "it only matters for the top 0.1%".

    There is no "I" in team. If you're a mythic raider, you are playing for the team first and for yourself second. That means if you have spare time to play, you feel compelled to do the thing that will help your guild progress further rather than the thing that you find "fun". Why do pet battles when you can grind more AP for stronger essences? Why collect transmog when you can grind M+ to get optimum corruption set up? Why play a worse spec when you can play a superior-performing spec?

    Sure, you could technically succeed in mythic without the level of hyperoptimization explained above but let's be honest with ourselves. Is someone who plays for themselves alone going to scrub logs to correct every little mistake? Or be okay with being benched for progress? Or reroll when asked to? No, of course they won't.

    There is no difference between the top 10% and the top 0.1% as far as their mindset goes. It's the "mythic raider" mindset. The willingness to pursue every improvement you can to help your team progress further, no matter how small. The difference comes from technical skill and that improves with years and years of play.

    So the argument that "it matters only for the top 0.1%" is complete and utter BS because every mythic raider worth his/her salt is going to have the team first, me second mindset. And if you don't have that mindset, your guild won't make it far because the people that do have that mindset will eventually get fed up and quit for a better guild. Maybe minor improvements from optimizing corruptions and pushing neck levels don't really matter much for one particular boss. But when everyone in your guild has the correct mindset and keeps pursuing every little minor improvement, all of them together add up quickly and make for a strong raiding team. Endless AP grinds, RNG gearing and class / spec performance disparity affect all mythic raiders equally.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    The difference comes from technical skill and that improves with years and years of play.
    TLDR, your whole post is wrong, there is no Mythic mindset, there is just the mindset to actually not be shit at something you waste your time on.

    Major guild disbands and guild merges over the last 15 years have shown it, i could go in detail but no reason, your posts are the usual "good players bad, bad players good" as always.

    Also there is no Mythic mindset, you either want to improve at something or you dont, majority of humans is like this, always an excuse as to why they cant do something.

    There are situations even now at Top guilds, wait, didnt Wildstar gaming disband mid-progress in crucible last year because they were fed up with their GM?

    What mythic mindset was that exactly?

    There are players that started in BFA, playing better than people that have been playing for 15 years, and i have seen it multiple times with previous expansions also.

    Some people are simply better at doing some things than others, humans just hate being reminded they suck at one more thing in life so they defend themselves with whatever excuse they can find.

    Problem with Mythic raiding is that some people hit a skill ceiling much sooner than they believe, which they bruteforce with gear, some point the people that havent hit that ceiling yet, get burnt out when they reach a boss, where gear wont save the "Learn to fucking WASD out of fire".

    Which is your comparison as to someone jumps the guild, there is no mentality, there is burn out.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-02-18 at 10:20 AM.

  3. #3
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?

  4. #4
    You want people with the same mindset. Doesnt matter if its mythic or not.
    People can understand that.
    a guild wont survive long if people dont have the same mindset, sooner or later people leave and at some point not even recruitment will be enough to keep it together.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    Exactly. that is why being in a guid that clears like half of myhtic bosses are good enough for me. 5-6 bosses each raid is both challanging and fun enough to keep this as a game to have fun or spend your free time.

  6. #6
    The OP runs around in circles providing no real topic to debate or discuss other than pointing out the obvious.

    If your mindset is to do it for the team, and you're apart of said team.... then logically you're doing it for yourself.

    You remind me of Negan on Walking Dead teaching his followers they are him.

    You want a guild that works like a cult. We get it.

    And that is THEE difference between the 10% and the .1%.

  7. #7
    So, who asked for this thread?

  8. #8
    Mythic raider here and I don't have that pressure you describe. I do what I enjoy and I get powerful quite quickly without the need to do things I don't find enjoyable, which often is grinding. I've stopped doing islands since a few months back and still got neck lvl 75 within 2 weeks when I came back slightly before 8.3 dropped...

    Why is it that every thread you do you make a claim about what EVERYONE thinks instead of you and people you know share this view? Can't recall a single thread from you where you haven't done sweeping generalisations like this.

  9. #9
    What an inane thread.
    They always told me I would miss my family... but I never miss from close range.

  10. #10
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    There is no "I" in team.
    Yes, there is
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  11. #11
    so yeah OP you are wrong.... Mythic raiders can very much be casual and play for fun solo vs always grinding. That is the mindset of realm first/hall of fame chasing guilds. Sure all raiders do things to help the team, maybe run an instance they don't want, spend a bit more time farming etc.. but not to the extreme you are talking about.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    ...or why you can't handwave away endless grinds, RNG gearing and spec disparity as "it only matters for the top 0.1%".

    There is no "I" in team. If you're a mythic raider, you are playing for the team first and for yourself second. That means if you have spare time to play, you feel compelled to do the thing that will help your guild progress further rather than the thing that you find "fun". Why do pet battles when you can grind more AP for stronger essences? Why collect transmog when you can grind M+ to get optimum corruption set up? Why play a worse spec when you can play a superior-performing spec?

    Sure, you could technically succeed in mythic without the level of hyperoptimization explained above but let's be honest with ourselves. Is someone who plays for themselves alone going to scrub logs to correct every little mistake? Or be okay with being benched for progress? Or reroll when asked to? No, of course they won't.

    There is no difference between the top 10% and the top 0.1% as far as their mindset goes. It's the "mythic raider" mindset. The willingness to pursue every improvement you can to help your team progress further, no matter how small. The difference comes from technical skill and that improves with years and years of play.

    So the argument that "it matters only for the top 0.1%" is complete and utter BS because every mythic raider worth his/her salt is going to have the team first, me second mindset. And if you don't have that mindset, your guild won't make it far because the people that do have that mindset will eventually get fed up and quit for a better guild. Maybe minor improvements from optimizing corruptions and pushing neck levels don't really matter much for one particular boss. But when everyone in your guild has the correct mindset and keeps pursuing every little minor improvement, all of them together add up quickly and make for a strong raiding team. Endless AP grinds, RNG gearing and class / spec performance disparity affect all mythic raiders equally.
    what you describe is "Addiction"

    you are a free person chosing what is fun for you .

    if you choose to play with simingly addicted junkies you have only yourself to blame for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    so yeah OP you are wrong.... Mythic raiders can very much be casual and play for fun solo vs always grinding. That is the mindset of realm first/hall of fame chasing guilds. Sure all raiders do things to help the team, maybe run an instance they don't want, spend a bit more time farming etc.. but not to the extreme you are talking about.
    he is not wrong thought.

    in wow there was always abundance of guilds with players who had always have subpar skills and were hiding it behind gear. and it worked well for years untill Cata/MoP where some bosses started to appear which you simply couldnt overtake with depending on gear alone.

    im not pointing it at anyone special - im talking about guilds which usually are/were in world 2000-10000 range. before when they farmed enough gear they were just overpowering bosses with sheer numbers which still performing at 20-30th percentiles and failing at many mechanics.

    in MoP for example there was 1 boss which made it painfully clear that guild either had skills or would never progress any further - Siegecrafter Blackfuse. and some people never killed it even after 14 months long tier.

    i dont raid anymore but i doubt that anything changed. i bet that there are still many many guilds out there who are geared to the teeth and are stuck on 4th or 6th mythic boss and will never kill it even if they farm ap/essences 24/7 while performing at 20th to 30th percentiles still .

    those are the people who complain most about how "hardcore" grinding nowadays is.

  13. #13
    I hard disagree...

    As someone that has been a progression raider for the last decade I have been in more cutting edge guilds that don't scour logs than those that do, too many people try to make mythic raiding sound like this difficult hardcore thing (mostly nubs) that you can't just chill and have fun while clearing.

    From my experience the guilds that act out how you put it usually disband before clearing anything…

    I will also say that what you call a "mythic raider mindset" is not exclusive to mythic raiding or even gaming in general.

    Ngl i get the impression that you're a social friend of someone in a mythic guild and was taken to a raid and now feels like they must lecture all them nubs about it.

  14. #14
    I'm not understanding what you're saying. That all Mythic raiders should have that mindset or that this how it is? Who should understand this, those Mythic raiders with 3 kills or the heroic-only raiders who really don't and (arguably) shouldn't care?

    Every person has a goal in the game (that is usually what he enjoys doing). Guilds are formed, supposedly, from like-minded people. Therefore, you have the following guilds:
    - We are pushing to be in the top 100 leaderboard
    - We want to do Cutting Edge while content is current
    - We'll do some Mythic bosses but we probably won't do Cutting Edge in time
    - We're not doing any Mythic bosses
    etc

    For each type of guild, people usually want to reach the same goal. Those who want to kill a few bosses on their spare time and enjoy doing pvp or pet battles or whatever won't choose your top 100 guild, obviously. And there's nothing wrong with that.

    So yeah, there are some things that only affect some. Thinking that everyone is equally affected or pressured to grind no matter what their goal is (even just Mythic-wise), is pretty much wrong.
    And frankly not sure why you should care that others have a different goal or mindset nor why they should care about you.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2020-02-18 at 11:16 AM.

  15. #15
    Immortal Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    100% crap. I haven't been hardcore for quite a while, but even when I was there wasn't slavish devotion to endless grinds outside of raids.

    Everyone would pitch in their own consumables, which took maybe an hour two tops of farming each week. Anyone who had extra time threw stuff in the gbank, but it was not demanded of people. During Legion we had no requirement for raiders to grind AP.

    So we would spend most of our outside raid time just doing whatever we felt like. I liked to put in warm-up and cool-down time before and after raids to whack a dummy for 10-15 minutes to practise and perfect my openers and rotations, but again that's not a huge amount of time. We didn't bother going through logs really, we just turned up and killed bosses.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    I mean I get where he’s coming from but all in all the mythic raider mindset is just logging on and doing as much as the other group it doesn’t require you to have three old characters so you can do split runs 24 seven and still end up world 2000

    It’s not about running mythic dungeons all day every day in the hope that you get that one good corruption

    Sure those things help but they won’t help the guild in the end because people will burn out and even some top world guilds at the end of the last Raid said hey guys if you need to take a break take a break and now mythic guilds are saying hey if you have a character that you wanna level up in gear go ahead and bring it progression is done for the expansion play what you want

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean the world first guilds are allowing people to play what they want now and some world 200 guilds are just now recovering from Bernau and they took a break at the end of the last Raiden didn’t require people to do farm it’s fine you are from the try hard mindset

    I actually want to see your logs because I have a few questions specifically about who recently told you they did not want to grind islands all day just to push for that 3% extra stamina

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin the Manslayer View Post
    I hard disagree...

    As someone that has been a progression raider for the last decade I have been in more cutting edge guilds that don't scour logs than those that do, too many people try to make mythic raiding sound like this difficult hardcore thing (mostly nubs) that you can't just chill and have fun while clearing.

    From my experience the guilds that act out how you put it usually disband before clearing anything…

    I will also say that what you call a "mythic raider mindset" is not exclusive to mythic raiding or even gaming in general.

    Ngl i get the impression that you're a social friend of someone in a mythic guild and was taken to a raid and now feels like they must lecture all them nubs about it.
    Drama Friday has many videos with many stories about guilds filled with people like this guy

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    you either want to improve at something or you dont
    What boggles my mind is when people ask me for help on how to improve, I tell them, then watch them play and they don't do anything I told them to do lol Why even bother asking me if you aren't going to actually do what I suggest?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    So you assume that people who play like the OP says don't enjoy it?
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  18. #18
    This is the perfect example of a "failed" mythic raider. People who don't make it far in mythic raids are the people who are obsessed with numbers, with gear, with azerite power, with fotm. People who focus on these things to make up for the fact that they're simply trash at the game. For the average mythic guild, the numbers rarely make or break progress. I have been in world 2000 mythic guilds and I have been in world 200. Very rarely do guilds at this level wipe on bosses because the numbers aren't enough, guilds wipe because people fail to play the mechanics of the fight properly.

    I have collected a fair amount of CEs while maintaining a marriage, a full time job and basically only logging in to raid and to run 1 m+ per week. What OP describes only applies to world first racers, and anyone below that who maintains such a mindset are the kind of people who bounce between guilds because they're so toxic no one wants to play with them. And based on OPs posting history, it's not difficult to guess whether or not OP belongs to this category or not.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what you describe is "Addiction"
    Everyone says that about anyone that puts a great amount of effort into playing lol

    in MoP for example there was 1 boss which made it painfully clear that guild either had skills or would never progress any further - Siegecrafter Blackfuse.
    Heroic(Mythic) Blackfuse was one of my favorite fights :}


    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    So, who asked for this thread?
    Me
    Last edited by Drusin; 2020-02-18 at 11:57 AM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by qactuar View Post
    So...your belief is that the 'mythic raider mindset' is that WoW turns into a job, rather than a game? Because that's what your description sounds like. Why would I take on a second job that not only doesn't pay me, but has a subscription fee instead? I prefer playing WoW to have fun, not work. I'm not alone in that, am I?
    Think of it like a sport.

    Some play sports to win.
    Exercise, eat healthily, get extra sleep be4 matches, watches professional players play and study what they do right/wrong, pays some extra money for the best/most fitting equipment, practice coordinated play and adapt to the role they have been assigned on the field.

    And then you have the other mindset of ppl who play sport for the fun. They dont do all the above side "chores", instead they mostly show up for practice because they know there will be beer and sauna afterwards. On the field they may decide to try hold on to the ball a little longer than they should. They dont optimize their days with the matches in mind but instead party as much as they like the day be4. They are there to have fun and share a laugh, winning is a secondary objective.

    As long as you play with likeminded people, its great. When these two mindsets mix thou your gonna have conflicts, as nether is very compatible with the other.


    So the best advice to a player asking what to play is probobly to ask him what mindset he has.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what you describe is "Addiction"
    Not really, pretty much every aspect of raiding can be compared to any teambased sport. And i wouldnt call people who aspire to go professional in any sport addicts.
    Raiding for ranks, is a competition. And competition will bring competetive behaviour, wich is what op is refering to.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

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