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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    At this point, he is just harassing me. Constantly saying I'm a female (sexist remark?) and trying to derail the thread.
    How ironic. I genuinely believed you were a female, i must have confused you with someone else. Disagreeing with someone is not harassment, however, unfounded accusations are not welcomed here, so i would just leave that one alone.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-02-20 at 02:01 AM.

  2. #182
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    I tanked BWL Sunday, Onyxia and MC on Monday on my Warrior. I have played this game for 15 years, I've tanked on every class in various expansions and recently when I was still playing BFA, I was a Monk tank into a Warrior tank into a Bear tank. I tanked Mythic bosses as far as my guild could progress. My monk has 90th and higher percentiles on some Ulduar fights (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...9&difficulty=4) for Heroic and my lowest percentile was 79th. I switched to my Warrior after we downed the first boss in Mythic out of boredom for the Monk rotation.

    So please, try to tell me how I don't know how to tank a raid or play a tank optimally it's pretty amusing.
    You do realize that tank threat is a joke and has been for several expansions right? Tank threat in vanilla was more of an issue and for a class that can't taunt, that's a huge deal. Can a paladin sunder armor? Can a paladin AOE taunt? Can a paladin single target taunt? What happens if that mage gets lucky with some back to back to back crits? You just going to wipe the raid because the boss goes running towards the mage because you can't taunt it or will you rely on your fury/fury/prot warriors to taunt so the raid doesn't get smashed?

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    You do realize that tank threat is a joke and has been for several expansions right? Tank threat in vanilla was more of an issue and for a class that can't taunt, that's a huge deal. Can a paladin sunder armor? Can a paladin AOE taunt? Can a paladin single target taunt? What happens if that mage gets lucky with some back to back to back crits? You just going to wipe the raid because the boss goes running towards the mage because you can't taunt it or will you rely on your fury/fury/prot warriors to taunt so the raid doesn't get smashed?
    I am not talking about threat as far as being a Monk in Uldir. I am talking about how I know how to play the game as you accused me of not even being an actual tank. You don't hit 80-90th+ percentiles playing poorly and not knowing what to do. Do you know how to tank or do it actively in Classic? Or are you like Machismo and literally just talking out your ass because you "see a warrior in town."

    Do you know how threat works and how much threat per cast a spell generates on a Warrior? A paladin in 1 cast can generate enormous amounts of threat. If you cast GBoK on a class that has at least 14 people, you're creating over 3 times the amount of threat than the best Warrior threat generating move. That's per cast. Sunder Armor doesn't do an amazing amount of threat, and is only good when complimented with a Heroic Strike follow-up for maximum threat which caps at about ~700 threat in global (since HS is on your next Main Hand swing). That is if they have the rage, as it is very possible to become rage starved with slower swinging bosses or when you get a dodge/parry. The Paladin would still be creating over one and a half times more threat in a single cast on 10 players and isn't limited at the start of a fight to how they generate threat.

    Also, in most good guilds, the DPS warriors are also stacking Sunders so the Main Tank doesn't have to. You overestimate how good Sunder Armor is for threat. Again, raids also have more than 1 tank. There isn't a single boss fight I can think of where you need to AOE taunt unless things get so wildly out of hand on Nef or Razorgore which is probably going to be a wipe anyways. To answer your question about DPS warriors taunting on trash and bosses, the answer is absolutely yes. We had a very ugly Firemaw kill last night, nearly every single warrior had to taunt the Wing Buffet so the MT wouldn't lose his threat. If you're a DPS warrior and don't have a sword&board+taunt macro, you're not playing correctly. Also, fun fact you'll ignore, if a Paladin was MTing, a warrior taunted off and took the Wing Buffet while the Paladin resumes GBoK spamming, not only will the Wing Buffet lower their threat putting the Paladin on top again, the Paladin is also maximizing their threat, the same way a Fury Prot Warrior would be spamming Heroic Strike to continue get threat.

    Finally, if you create a threat ceiling so unbelievably high quickly, you literally have no risk of "a mage getting super lucky back to back crits that pulls threat" because they couldn't generate that much threat if they wanted to. GBoK cannot be dodge/blocked/parried/miss/resisted/glancing blow. The literal only way GBoK gets worse if people are playing so unbelievably bad that they are dying early to something like Firemaw's stacking debuff and suddenly you have less targets to bless which is probably a wipe anyways as you're healers are going to gas out trying to save people.

  4. #184
    Well, furry warr tanking brings dps while risking raid. Pala tank brings... risk and no dps? grp of friends? Fine. But trying to put 39 ppl under that... unless you want to create your own raid grp which would have that stated before joining.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    A load of rubbish
    It doesn't become true if you keep repeating it.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    But you only need mitigation buffs as paladin...?

    Why would u put on spell power buffs or whatever pala tanks do it will do nothing for you, just press kings again lol
    I said same consumables as warrior, only difference is symbol. I dont know why you would bring up spell power into this if its obviously not part of the hypothetical.
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

  7. #187
    If you have enough threat potions even Shaman can tank most raid fights post ZG ( mp5 is super important for Shaman tanking and a lot of mp5 mail gear drops there) so I cannot imagine a paladin would have trouble.
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  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Yeah, because I'm sure guilds want to gear up a main tank that they can't even use in every fight
    Are you dense? If paladins can handle tank swap mechanics on taunt immune bosses then why do you think guilds need another tank on tauntable bosses? LOL

  9. #189
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    you're creating over 3 times the amount of threat than the best Warrior threat generating move. That's per cast. Sunder Armor doesn't do an amazing amount of threat
    So GBOK generates more threat than TAUNT does because that's the best warrior threat generating move.....something paladins lack the ability to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    If you cast GBoK on a class that has at least 14 people
    So in order to gain the most TPS your raid has to stack the raid with 14 of a certain class since paladin blessings are limited to CLASS not GROUP when they buff with great blessings. Sounds pretty reasonable. I'm done arguing with you. You want to justify how a second rate tank should be able to main tank in vanilla and you can't comprehend the flaws a paladin tank has compared to the meta warrior tank for vanilla. Reply all you want, I'm done with this.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    To be fair, the reason Warlocks can't tank as well is because they do too little threat while also taking a lot more damage. If GBoK really does 1k+ TPS under normal raid circumstances, you can easily gear a Paladin to be more sturdy (outside of cooldowns) than even a Prot Warrior, as even the Prot Warriors will want TPS gear. The big (BIG) problem is taunt, and no Shield Wall - but IF the GBoK spam really is viable then Paladins do theoretically have a useful spot in raids.

    Mana isn't necessarily even an issue. Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Wisdom + fast weapon (since spell damage isn't necessary) will be enough mana for most fights that don't require taunt.

    I don't disagree that a Warrior is absolutely a better overall tank - @Coldfrostzero isn't arguing that either - but this way Prot Paladins DO have a spot in raids. They'd just be geared after the main tank Warriors, but before the Fury Warriors.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Point out what's wrong about it instead. Yeah, a tank Paladin under normal circumstances (not GBoK spam) is at best a niche tank for dungeons and some AoE fights if you don't want to spend a ton of gold just to do it a bit quicker - and they're basically just significantly worse at everything else than Warriors normally.

    But if the GBoK spam really does generate 1k+ TPS, then Prot Paladins do have some potential relevance in raids. GBoK costs 150 mana which, while it isn't nothing, isn't insurmountable either.

    EDIT: Another big issue is of course the gear - a ton of the Classic tank gear is locked to Warrior. There's a bit of leather tank gear since Druids were somewhat planned to tank, but there's very little that suits a Paladin from raids, at least those currently available. You'd basically have to be DPS/healer geared just out of lack of options.
    It was pointed out multiple times in this thread but you're in complete denial and won't accept the facts buddy

  11. #191
    Up until post MC it's possible. At that point a lot of bosses require taunt off and taunt back mechanical reasons and Paladin suffers pretty badly because of not having a taunt. The gear gap also starts to widen as warriors get better and better itemized gear for tanking and Paladins really don't get a lot better.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Xalvia View Post
    It was pointed out multiple times in this thread but you're in complete denial and won't accept the facts buddy
    Nice non-answer mate. Just because you have no knowledge doesn't mean I don't.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Up until post MC it's possible. At that point a lot of bosses require taunt off and taunt back mechanical reasons and Paladin suffers pretty badly because of not having a taunt. The gear gap also starts to widen as warriors get better and better itemized gear for tanking and Paladins really don't get a lot better.
    Paladin tank is possible t'ill Naxx. Taunt isn't necessary to tank. This is and has been the case for many years.

    Are warriors better? yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    mp5 is super important for Shaman tanking and a lot of mp5 mail gear drops there) so I cannot imagine a paladin would have trouble.
    mp5 for a shaman tank? I've never heard of that as a defining stat to get.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Caperfin View Post
    Paladin tank is possible t'ill Naxx. Taunt isn't necessary to tank. This is and has been the case for many years.

    Are warriors better? yes.

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    mp5 for a shaman tank? I've never heard of that as a defining stat to get.
    So Paladins are just so powerful they tank straight though wing buffets? Are able to spike threat so hard 2-4 times a fight to turn a boss thier direction and then drop the threat the same amount of times on demand?

    Learn something new everyday. People like you make WoW great again.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Caperfin View Post
    Paladin tank is possible t'ill Naxx. Taunt isn't necessary to tank. This is and has been the case for many years.

    Are warriors better? yes.

    - - - Updated - - -



    mp5 for a shaman tank? I've never heard of that as a defining stat to get.
    Yes it is super important because while we get free shocks through clear casting and you can fish for clear casting with low rank earth shocks having the mp5 for your totems is super important since the best tank builds don't dip into resto. Also agility is our king stat since it gives lots of armor and dodge (my dodge is at 30% on my tank shaman). With chain lightning and rockbiter aggro is not an issue too which is nice.
    Last edited by Unholyground; 2020-02-21 at 02:25 PM.
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  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Agility and strength doesn't do much for Paladin anyway, but the rest about gear is true.

    However, if GBoK spam is sustainable and remains as strong as it is, Paladin threat is actually the strongest of all tanks, while maintaining high survivability (like Feral Druids, but better). The (HUGE) caveat is the lack of Taunt, but they'd literally be the best tanks for fights that don't require Taunt or Shield Wall (again, assuming they don't oom).

    Yes, they have limitations for sure, but getting past those limitations to get the highest TPS available could be worth it.
    It's the same situation as with Feral Druids - they have the best TPS scaling by far, eventually outpacing even Fury/Prot Warriors in terms of TPS - but they have the caveat of having less gear, no Shield Wall, and no ability to use items while tanking.
    Even if they have the highest tps and be able to get the most survivability those aren't really anything of note. Because,

    a) fury/prot warriors have more than enough tps coupled with high dps. In my guild we start every single pull with casters pre casting on the mob/boss. I actually never saw any of our tanks lose aggro

    b) they don't die if they or the healers arent bad.

    It all comes downs to fury/prot warriors actually doing damage and the fact that if things go wrong they can actually taunt
    Last edited by tikcol; 2020-02-21 at 02:52 PM.

  17. #197
    10 page discussion about obvious things.

    Yes, you can tank as a Paladin in Vanilla , until your group that has no clue gets a Warrior to tank and everything suddenly becomes easier.

    Its the same with any sort of gameplay in WoW the last 15 years, you can do whatever you want if your environment is as clueless or as good as you.

    Its the same with the newbies posting about threat, yeah its mostly a joke and irrelevant, until its Skittish week and you are playing with 90%+ percentile players or generally anyone pressing their buttons correctly once every now and then, in higher keys. where you have to actually be more versatile with some things and target switching.

    But ye, M+5 experience is having an opinion.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-02-21 at 02:57 PM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    So GBOK generates more threat than TAUNT does because that's the best warrior threat generating move.....something paladins lack the ability to do



    So in order to gain the most TPS your raid has to stack the raid with 14 of a certain class since paladin blessings are limited to CLASS not GROUP when they buff with great blessings. Sounds pretty reasonable. I'm done arguing with you. You want to justify how a second rate tank should be able to main tank in vanilla and you can't comprehend the flaws a paladin tank has compared to the meta warrior tank for vanilla. Reply all you want, I'm done with this.
    Taunt doesn't generate threat. It put's you 110% above the highest person at that time, if you perform no threat generating actions afterwards, threat is lost. Again, if the boss is Taunt immune, what does Taunt even matter?

    That was an example of how powerful TPS can be on a Paladin. GBoK causes 114 Threat per target. The highest Warrior threat spell is Revenge at 355. Casting GBoK on 4 people gives you more threat than the best a Warrior can do. Last time I checked, it's pretty damn easy to get 4 people playing a single class. My guild runs with 9 to 11 warriors a raid. You're acting like it's impossible to have a ton of people on the "better" classes.

    If you actually read what I've said multiple times, you'd comprehend how threat works. You cannot spam Revenge and Heroic Strike is limited to having rage, being on "next attack" which makes it's threat not instant (only causes 175 anyway), and it can be dodged/parried even at hit cap. GBoK can never not land, period.

    It's funny how paladin tanking makes people so mad, they can't actually think past their own bias.
    Last edited by Coldfrostzero; 2020-02-24 at 03:35 PM.

  19. #199
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    My opinion: A paladin tank can work, but not as main tank for the raid, and on fights that need a taunt, you'll probably want to shift to buff duty while the fury warrior off-tanks. You'll certainly shine on add-heavy fights like Garr and Onyxia, however.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  20. #200
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Taunt doesn't generate threat. It put's you 110% above the highest person at that time, if you perform no threat generating actions afterwards, threat is lost. Again, if the boss is Taunt immune, what does Taunt even matter?

    That was an example of how powerful TPS can be on a Paladin. GBoK causes 114 Threat per target. The highest Warrior threat spell is Revenge at 355. Casting GBoK on 4 people gives you more threat than the best a Warrior can do. Last time I checked, it's pretty damn easy to get 4 people playing a single class. My guild runs with 9 to 11 warriors a raid. You're acting like it's impossible to have a ton of people on the "better" classes.

    If you actually read what I've said multiple times, you'd comprehend how threat works. You cannot spam Revenge and Heroic Strike is limited to having rage, being on "next attack" which makes it's threat not instant (only causes 175 anyway), and it can be dodged/parried even at hit cap. GBoK can never not land, period.

    It's funny how paladin tanking makes people so mad, they can't actually think past their own bias.
    Seeing how I've had a tank since vanilla I'm well aware of tanking works. You say that taunt doesn't generate threat but you fail to see that if a warrior has 0 threat on a target and uses taunt that suddenly that warrior has generated A LOT of threat. You just want people to come in here and tell you "yes paladin tanking is viable for raids" because YOU are the one with the bias. You want people to enable you to tank as a paladin in a raid setting. You have been shown many times in these 10 pages of posts why paladin tanking isn't viable in a raid setting yet you continue to argue with people who show this to you. YOU are the one with the bias here not everyone else. You are looking for someone to come in here and tell you how its ok to tank as a paladin and that they are in fact viable tanks so you have some sort of proof to validate your bias towards having a paladin tank. Sorry dude but you're not going to get that because they aren't a viable tank in a raid setting for many reasons outside of the whole no taunt issue.

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