Paladin Raid Tanking

[erifwodahs]

Well, furry warr tanking brings dps while risking raid. Pala tank brings... risk and no dps? grp of friends? Fine. But trying to put 39 ppl under that... unless you want to create your own raid grp which would have that stated before joining.

[ovine]

A load of rubbish

It doesn't become true if you keep repeating it.

[Multitorix Davlen]

But you only need mitigation buffs as paladin...?

Why would u put on spell power buffs or whatever pala tanks do it will do nothing for you, just press kings again lol

I said same consumables as warrior, only difference is symbol. I dont know why you would bring up spell power into this if its obviously not part of the hypothetical.

[Unholyground]

If you have enough threat potions even Shaman can tank most raid fights post ZG ( mp5 is super important for Shaman tanking and a lot of mp5 mail gear drops there) so I cannot imagine a paladin would have trouble.

[Vilendor]

Yeah, because I'm sure guilds want to gear up a main tank that they can't even use in every fight

Are you dense? If paladins can handle tank swap mechanics on taunt immune bosses then why do you think guilds need another tank on tauntable bosses? LOL

[gaymer77]

you're creating over 3 times the amount of threat than the best Warrior threat generating move. That's per cast. Sunder Armor doesn't do an amazing amount of threat

So GBOK generates more threat than TAUNT does because that's the best warrior threat generating move.....something paladins lack the ability to do

If you cast GBoK on a class that has at least 14 people

So in order to gain the most TPS your raid has to stack the raid with 14 of a certain class since paladin blessings are limited to CLASS not GROUP when they buff with great blessings. Sounds pretty reasonable. I'm done arguing with you. You want to justify how a second rate tank should be able to main tank in vanilla and you can't comprehend the flaws a paladin tank has compared to the meta warrior tank for vanilla. Reply all you want, I'm done with this.

[Xalvia]

To be fair, the reason Warlocks can't tank as well is because they do too little threat while also taking a lot more damage. If GBoK really does 1k+ TPS under normal raid circumstances, you can easily gear a Paladin to be more sturdy (outside of cooldowns) than even a Prot Warrior, as even the Prot Warriors will want TPS gear. The big (BIG) problem is taunt, and no Shield Wall - but IF the GBoK spam really is viable then Paladins do theoretically have a useful spot in raids.

Mana isn't necessarily even an issue. Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Wisdom + fast weapon (since spell damage isn't necessary) will be enough mana for most fights that don't require taunt.

I don't disagree that a Warrior is absolutely a better overall tank - @Coldfrostzero isn't arguing that either - but this way Prot Paladins DO have a spot in raids. They'd just be geared after the main tank Warriors, but before the Fury Warriors.

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Point out what's wrong about it instead. Yeah, a tank Paladin under normal circumstances (not GBoK spam) is at best a niche tank for dungeons and some AoE fights if you don't want to spend a ton of gold just to do it a bit quicker - and they're basically just significantly worse at everything else than Warriors normally.

But if the GBoK spam really does generate 1k+ TPS, then Prot Paladins do have some potential relevance in raids. GBoK costs 150 mana which, while it isn't nothing, isn't insurmountable either.

EDIT: Another big issue is of course the gear - a ton of the Classic tank gear is locked to Warrior. There's a bit of leather tank gear since Druids were somewhat planned to tank, but there's very little that suits a Paladin from raids, at least those currently available. You'd basically have to be DPS/healer geared just out of lack of options.

It was pointed out multiple times in this thread but you're in complete denial and won't accept the facts buddy

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Up until post MC it's possible. At that point a lot of bosses require taunt off and taunt back mechanical reasons and Paladin suffers pretty badly because of not having a taunt. The gear gap also starts to widen as warriors get better and better itemized gear for tanking and Paladins really don't get a lot better.

[Segus1992]

It was pointed out multiple times in this thread but you're in complete denial and won't accept the facts buddy

Nice non-answer mate. Just because you have no knowledge doesn't mean I don't.

[Caperfin]

Up until post MC it's possible. At that point a lot of bosses require taunt off and taunt back mechanical reasons and Paladin suffers pretty badly because of not having a taunt. The gear gap also starts to widen as warriors get better and better itemized gear for tanking and Paladins really don't get a lot better.

Paladin tank is possible t'ill Naxx. Taunt isn't necessary to tank. This is and has been the case for many years.

Are warriors better? yes.

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mp5 is super important for Shaman tanking and a lot of mp5 mail gear drops there) so I cannot imagine a paladin would have trouble.

mp5 for a shaman tank? I've never heard of that as a defining stat to get.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Paladin tank is possible t'ill Naxx. Taunt isn't necessary to tank. This is and has been the case for many years.

Are warriors better? yes.

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mp5 for a shaman tank? I've never heard of that as a defining stat to get.

So Paladins are just so powerful they tank straight though wing buffets? Are able to spike threat so hard 2-4 times a fight to turn a boss thier direction and then drop the threat the same amount of times on demand?

Learn something new everyday. People like you make WoW great again.

[Unholyground]

Paladin tank is possible t'ill Naxx. Taunt isn't necessary to tank. This is and has been the case for many years.

Are warriors better? yes.

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mp5 for a shaman tank? I've never heard of that as a defining stat to get.

Yes it is super important because while we get free shocks through clear casting and you can fish for clear casting with low rank earth shocks having the mp5 for your totems is super important since the best tank builds don't dip into resto. Also agility is our king stat since it gives lots of armor and dodge (my dodge is at 30% on my tank shaman). With chain lightning and rockbiter aggro is not an issue too which is nice.

[tikcol]

Agility and strength doesn't do much for Paladin anyway, but the rest about gear is true.

However, if GBoK spam is sustainable and remains as strong as it is, Paladin threat is actually the strongest of all tanks, while maintaining high survivability (like Feral Druids, but better). The (HUGE) caveat is the lack of Taunt, but they'd literally be the best tanks for fights that don't require Taunt or Shield Wall (again, assuming they don't oom).

Yes, they have limitations for sure, but getting past those limitations to get the highest TPS available could be worth it. It's the same situation as with Feral Druids - they have the best TPS scaling by far, eventually outpacing even Fury/Prot Warriors in terms of TPS - but they have the caveat of having less gear, no Shield Wall, and no ability to use items while tanking.

Even if they have the highest tps and be able to get the most survivability those aren't really anything of note. Because,

a) fury/prot warriors have more than enough tps coupled with high dps. In my guild we start every single pull with casters pre casting on the mob/boss. I actually never saw any of our tanks lose aggro

b) they don't die if they or the healers arent bad.

It all comes downs to fury/prot warriors actually doing damage and the fact that if things go wrong they can actually taunt

[potis]

10 page discussion about obvious things.

Yes, you can tank as a Paladin in Vanilla , until your group that has no clue gets a Warrior to tank and everything suddenly becomes easier.

Its the same with any sort of gameplay in WoW the last 15 years, you can do whatever you want if your environment is as clueless or as good as you.

Its the same with the newbies posting about threat, yeah its mostly a joke and irrelevant, until its Skittish week and you are playing with 90%+ percentile players or generally anyone pressing their buttons correctly once every now and then, in higher keys. where you have to actually be more versatile with some things and target switching.

But ye, M+5 experience is having an opinion.

[Coldfrostzero]

So GBOK generates more threat than TAUNT does because that's the best warrior threat generating move.....something paladins lack the ability to do



So in order to gain the most TPS your raid has to stack the raid with 14 of a certain class since paladin blessings are limited to CLASS not GROUP when they buff with great blessings. Sounds pretty reasonable. I'm done arguing with you. You want to justify how a second rate tank should be able to main tank in vanilla and you can't comprehend the flaws a paladin tank has compared to the meta warrior tank for vanilla. Reply all you want, I'm done with this.

Taunt doesn't generate threat. It put's you 110% above the highest person at that time, if you perform no threat generating actions afterwards, threat is lost. Again, if the boss is Taunt immune, what does Taunt even matter?

That was an example of how powerful TPS can be on a Paladin. GBoK causes 114 Threat per target. The highest Warrior threat spell is Revenge at 355. Casting GBoK on 4 people gives you more threat than the best a Warrior can do. Last time I checked, it's pretty damn easy to get 4 people playing a single class. My guild runs with 9 to 11 warriors a raid. You're acting like it's impossible to have a ton of people on the "better" classes.

If you actually read what I've said multiple times, you'd comprehend how threat works. You cannot spam Revenge and Heroic Strike is limited to having rage, being on "next attack" which makes it's threat not instant (only causes 175 anyway), and it can be dodged/parried even at hit cap. GBoK can never not land, period.

It's funny how paladin tanking makes people so mad, they can't actually think past their own bias.

[Thage]

My opinion: A paladin tank can work, but not as main tank for the raid, and on fights that need a taunt, you'll probably want to shift to buff duty while the fury warrior off-tanks. You'll certainly shine on add-heavy fights like Garr and Onyxia, however.

[gaymer77]

Taunt doesn't generate threat. It put's you 110% above the highest person at that time, if you perform no threat generating actions afterwards, threat is lost. Again, if the boss is Taunt immune, what does Taunt even matter?

That was an example of how powerful TPS can be on a Paladin. GBoK causes 114 Threat per target. The highest Warrior threat spell is Revenge at 355. Casting GBoK on 4 people gives you more threat than the best a Warrior can do. Last time I checked, it's pretty damn easy to get 4 people playing a single class. My guild runs with 9 to 11 warriors a raid. You're acting like it's impossible to have a ton of people on the "better" classes.

If you actually read what I've said multiple times, you'd comprehend how threat works. You cannot spam Revenge and Heroic Strike is limited to having rage, being on "next attack" which makes it's threat not instant (only causes 175 anyway), and it can be dodged/parried even at hit cap. GBoK can never not land, period.

It's funny how paladin tanking makes people so mad, they can't actually think past their own bias.

Seeing how I've had a tank since vanilla I'm well aware of tanking works. You say that taunt doesn't generate threat but you fail to see that if a warrior has 0 threat on a target and uses taunt that suddenly that warrior has generated A LOT of threat. You just want people to come in here and tell you "yes paladin tanking is viable for raids" because YOU are the one with the bias. You want people to enable you to tank as a paladin in a raid setting. You have been shown many times in these 10 pages of posts why paladin tanking isn't viable in a raid setting yet you continue to argue with people who show this to you. YOU are the one with the bias here not everyone else. You are looking for someone to come in here and tell you how its ok to tank as a paladin and that they are in fact viable tanks so you have some sort of proof to validate your bias towards having a paladin tank. Sorry dude but you're not going to get that because they aren't a viable tank in a raid setting for many reasons outside of the whole no taunt issue.

[arkanon]

It was clear right from the OP that they had no interest in an open discussion:

"mitigation be almost better? Or is the stigma going to forever be there? "

Almost better AKA not as good, this was OP's words, not mine. The next bit shows true colours - "if you dont agree with me, its because of the stigma!"

[Coldfrostzero]

Seeing how I've had a tank since vanilla I'm well aware of tanking works. You say that taunt doesn't generate threat but you fail to see that if a warrior has 0 threat on a target and uses taunt that suddenly that warrior has generated A LOT of threat. You just want people to come in here and tell you "yes paladin tanking is viable for raids" because YOU are the one with the bias. You want people to enable you to tank as a paladin in a raid setting. You have been shown many times in these 10 pages of posts why paladin tanking isn't viable in a raid setting yet you continue to argue with people who show this to you. YOU are the one with the bias here not everyone else. You are looking for someone to come in here and tell you how its ok to tank as a paladin and that they are in fact viable tanks so you have some sort of proof to validate your bias towards having a paladin tank. Sorry dude but you're not going to get that because they aren't a viable tank in a raid setting for many reasons outside of the whole no taunt issue.

I offer up a ton of reasons why it's viable and how tanking works today. You come in and just say "won't work because no taunt." Okay, a fight where taunt literally doesn't matter. "Nope, they can't taunt so they're bad."

The literal two things holding back paladin tanks in Classic is Taunt and Damage Done. Taunt doesn't matter on every fight and if nobody has to slow down ever on a fight, Damage Done becomes a lot less important as the DPS can open up earlier and go full tilt.

You're literally ignoring new evidence for your bias against Paladin tanks. If you're that close-minded this discussion isn't meant for you. I'm not trying to say Paladins will be the best tanks ever or that they should replace Warriors. Warriors will always be superior. The question is, the fact that threat is the most important part of tanking, that may make people rethink their place in raids. Coming in and saying "no lol" and then spouting off outdated information isn't a discussion. Even when someone in here explains why what you're saying isn't correct, you just resort to saying "no taunt = no tank."

[Caperfin]

Yes it is super important because while we get free shocks through clear casting and you can fish for clear casting with low rank earth shocks having the mp5 for your totems is super important since the best tank builds don't dip into resto. Also agility is our king stat since it gives lots of armor and dodge (my dodge is at 30% on my tank shaman). With chain lightning and rockbiter aggro is not an issue too which is nice.

The only totem we truly benefit the most from is Grace. And getting mp5 gear leave us statistically weak defensively. And mana isn't a big issue.

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So Paladins are just so powerful they tank straight though wing buffets? Are able to spike threat so hard 2-4 times a fight to turn a boss thier direction and then drop the threat the same amount of times on demand?

Learn something new everyday. People like you make WoW great again.

You're being sarcastic but yes...