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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Aren't there any young black actresses that could have filled the role? This isn't a voice acting role..or she will play an adult role? That's like a brand new character..
    Death is not a teenager. She's nearly as old as the universe itself. She is Dreams older sister. It always was "an adult role". What she appeared as is immaterial.

    Once again you are taking the position that the the physical appearance of a character is the only important trait of the character. Which is silly even when the character cannot appear in any form she chooses.

    It is, as I have said before, like saying Hugh Jackman cannot be Wolverine because he is too tall.

  2. #202
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Endus...says Dream is shown in different appearances, but he doesn't mention how often n it is telling that he says he trusts the author rather than relying on a larger body of work... He could talk about the most common appearances of the characters n the stories that come with them, but no...
    Because it's irrelevant. We know that the incarnations of the Endless are based on the perception of the observer. That's shown directly in the comics. What Death was represented as there fundamentally doesn't matter to the concept which she incarnates, and it's pretty clear she hasn't always looked that way.

    Also, strongly disagree that Death is presented as a "teenager". 18 or 19, or anywhere in her 20s, maybe. She's pretty clearly an adult. The only one who presents as a teenager consistently in the comics is Delirium.

    Death is the most popular character in the sandman franchise, her stuff has been collected into an absolute edition book (absolute is basically Tintin sized comic books with hardcover) so instead of arguing about different appearances lets just browse through it n see how his arguments hold up..
    Why would that contradict anything I've said?

    What story is going to be used for the unexpected version of Death for this show? Make it all up? The actress in this show is not a teenager, she should have done this role in 2001, not 2021...is she supposed to play as a teenager black Death?
    Since we've already been over how Death is not a "teenager", I fail to see how her being black affects the character in any meaningful sense.

    I don't know your age, but I am not a teenager n certainly have put on more weight, which is very common as one grows older, harder to maintain weight. One generally was a lot skinnier...I could go through snacks like a lawn mover n not gain any weight.
    Aren't there any young black actresses that could have filled the role? This isn't a voice acting role..or she will play an adult role? That's like a brand new character..
    In what way?

    Your entire argument here boils down to race-baiting and fat-shaming, over factors that in no way would inform or affect the character. Arguing against the author, I might add.

    Let's also recall that Death is not just "not a teenager", but is actually billions of years old. She's existed since shortly after life first emerged in the Universe. Which is kind of why insisting she has to always look like a white teenage skinny goth girl is bananas. You're telling me she looked like that when our ancestors still hadn't worked out what a backbone was for?

    My main point, well, if one wants to do different versions, how fair is that one is in the comics and the other live-action show?
    It does not affect them in any way whatsoever. Why would it?


  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Death is not a teenager. She's nearly as old as the universe itself. She is Dreams older sister. It always was "an adult role". What she appeared as is immaterial.
    I did say she appears different n acts different. As Didi, that's a teen role, not adult. Death can be many kinds of roles, even in same scenes. So yes it matters that she acts like teen Didi with her teen friend Sexton for example. I thought that would be obvious.

    It is, as I have said before, like saying Hugh Jackman cannot be Wolverine because he is too tall.
    I admit I haven't followed this...hugh jackman take...but I feel it changes nothing with his height. But if Logan was a teen, it would change how the story would play out.
    Didi is a lot confused while being Death, and being the human dead girl Didi at the same time. It's intertwined. But a young Logan would be different story, he would be put in the kid team by prof X n hang out with kitty pryde n the other kids n have different experiences n stories.

    What age-group characters are put in, do matter, regardless of how timeless one could be.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    I did say she appears different n acts different. As Didi, that's a teen role, not adult. Death can be many kinds of roles, even in same scenes. So yes it matters that she acts like teen Didi with her teen friend Sexton for example. I thought that would be obvious.
    This isn't the story of Death's one day as a living person. This is Dream's story. "Didi" doesn't enter into it.

    And Didi is just one single aspect of the character...not the character itself.

    The point of the story is that, once every hundred years, Death spends a single day as a living person...so she can experience life and death. What age she is is not the important part. What's important is that she understands what it feels like when a life ends.

    I mean, you're pushing this agenda that the only "true" version of the character is the aspect that she portrayed for 1 single day over a "lifetime" of billions of years.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-07-04 at 10:57 PM.

  5. #205
    Banned Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    the book isn't just about didi, that was one example, there's historical examples too, that were in the book, n her as Death talking to Dream, like when he first comes back after breaking free, and it's not as Didi even though looks like her. Death even interacts with herself as Death that looks like Didi and Didi that is Death. It's weird. but point is, which u guys keep trying to avoid, is there isn't an infinite amount portrayals in the books, n those few in the books are sometimes very brief. We are talking about those that have been given room to be portrayed at length, do warrant live-action.

    Even when Death is being Death, while happening to look like Didi, n not being Didi at all, she still have people insert the punk/metal take on that version. It's a thread that keeps going through her different but similar versions of herself.

    This is why i brought up Yojimbo n Fistful of dollars. Each portrayal were given their place in the sun, live action movie.
    Both Sanjuro Kuwabatake & The man with no Name
    Both are adults, share the same story, but told differently n similarly, the difference is in portrayal. You can tell the same story a million times n always it will be different.

    Can't take people serious that defend torpedoing a portrayal, they themselves expected would happen prior to the casting.

    hell, if the writer tomorrow says he'll make it into a manga, that will be different portrayal.

    Doesn't change that one portrayal is responsible for him even having a career n this is how he treats his fans that put him where he is? Guy should go work for lucasfilm.
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2021-07-05 at 12:26 AM.

  6. #206
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    It's weird. but point is, which u guys keep trying to avoid, is there isn't an infinite amount portrayals in the books, n those few in the books are sometimes very brief.
    And? Nothing in the comics speaks against this characterization. That's entirely in your head.

    Even when Death is being Death, while happening to look like Didi, n not being Didi at all, she still have people insert the punk/metal take on that version. It's a thread that keeps going through her different but similar versions of herself.
    She's still got a goth look, here. Big chunky boots, black jeans and shirt, what I assume is a big silver ankh necklace.

    Your issue is just that the actress is black.

    Doesn't change that one portrayal is responsible for him even having a career n this is how he treats his fans that put him where he is? Guy should go work for lucasfilm.
    The character Death is not what made Gaiman's career. That's a flatly ridiculous statement.

    And don't pretend you respect the author or his work, since you're here disparaging both.


  7. #207
    Banned Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    This is like arguing Sanjuro would seem believable walking into san miguel or the man with no name walking into the japanese town..

    99.9999999999999999999% poc don't care at all about goth/punk/metal, poc will just see some dark outfit n think nothing of it, and not associate with it nor give it the meaning the Didi-looking Death gave readers. But you don't care about any of that, it's obvious with all the deflections n excuses. and lol I don't care about the work when I'm defending it? while you are defending portrayals nobody has even seen n try to pass it off as the same thing, with nothing to show for your defense "I trust him! just because! how dare you not trust something you have not even seen?" well, that is the answer right there. And even if it's good, my main point still stands, a fistful of dollars never made me say "that different take was good, that means yojimbo didn't need to have been made!"

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Doesn't change that one portrayal is responsible for him even having a career n this is how he treats his fans that put him where he is? Guy should go work for lucasfilm.
    Most of his fans are absolutely fine with how he "treats his fans". We aren't overly concerned that a character that can choose to look like whatever she wants to look like is not an exact copy of how the character is sometimes depicted. The character herself hates that people think she should look and act in a certain way.



    Death is a supporting character in the books. The books are about Morpheus. That's what "made his career". Death didn't even appear until 8 issues in...and even then it was only in the last pages.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    And even if it's good, my main point still stands, a fistful of dollars never made me say "that different take was good, that means yojimbo didn't need to have been made!"
    Absolutely no one is saying the comics should never have been made.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/aa/ca/e1aaca6002d17e0d1995f7fec57bcd08.jpg
    u shouldn't post pictures of death changing from one goth look to another goth look n say you have a point. I don't go around complaining she should have a hat on all the time. It's irrelevant as well, it's about how she has been basically portrayed that should reflected on live action.

    Death is a supporting character in the books. The books are about Morpheus. That's what "made his career". Death didn't even appear until 8 issues in...and even then it was only in the last pages.
    oh gee, I wonder why I wrote sandman n not death in the title of the thread, now I know, thx! I said she had 1 absolute book version, 1 out of many in the sandman franchise, those are kinda hard to miss in any comic book store, big black volumes (together with the hellboy ones). As for dream, he looks recognizable from the comic, I know the writer didn't change all the portrayals to unrecognizable and I don't buy his excuses or will ever trust him by rudely dismissing fans.

    Absolutely no one is saying the comics should never have been made.
    Comics aren't comparable to live action. That is a step up, and not given to the portrayal we all expected n deserved to see on the screen. That is disrespectful.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    u shouldn't post pictures of death changing from one goth look to another goth look n say you have a point. I don't go around complaining she should have a hat on all the time. It's irrelevant as well, it's about how she has been basically portrayed that should reflected on live action.
    She's got a goth look in the TV series too...so... I guess showing her having differnt goth looks kinda makes my point.



    oh gee, I wonder why I wrote sandman n not death in the title of the thread, now I know, thx!
    This is what you said:
    Doesn't change that one portrayal is responsible for him even having a career
    So, were you or were you not talking about Death?

    I know the writer didn't change all the portrayals to unrecognizable and I don't buy his excuses or will ever trust him by rudely dismissing fans.
    He never rudely dismissed his fans. His "fans" rudely told him that he didn't give a shit about his work and he responded accordingly.

  11. #211
    One must accept that all film adaptations of comics, stories or novels will only ever be adaptations. Being faithful to the source material is not the goal of an adaptation, and shouldn't really be a factor in the enjoyment of an adaptation.

    Game of Thrones completely fucked up the literal Dragons of the series. They're not dragons at all, they're wyverns. Not 4-legged beasts with wings, just 2-legged. Yet it doesn't get in the way of enjoying an adaptation unless you choose to have it affect your enjoyment of it. It's not in the interest of the show creators to have everything be 1:1 faithfully recreated, because the TV show is and always would be just an adaptation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #212
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    This is like arguing Sanjuro would seem believable walking into san miguel or the man with no name walking into the japanese town..

    99.9999999999999999999% poc don't care at all about goth/punk/metal, poc will just see some dark outfit n think nothing of it, and not associate with it nor give it the meaning the Didi-looking Death gave readers.
    I mean, this is just prejudice. There's no argument here. You're telling people a black character can't be goth because she's black and goth is, to you, a white thing.

    That's prejudiced garbage and has no basis in fact.

    But you don't care about any of that, it's obvious with all the deflections n excuses. and lol I don't care about the work when I'm defending it? while you are defending portrayals nobody has even seen n try to pass it off as the same thing, with nothing to show for your defense "I trust him! just because! how dare you not trust something you have not even seen?" well, that is the answer right there. And even if it's good, my main point still stands, a fistful of dollars never made me say "that different take was good, that means yojimbo didn't need to have been made!"
    To be clear; I'm ignoring your comparison of samurai films and westerns because that's about loose genre tropes in the first place, and your position on them directly contradicts the conclusion you draw from it anyway.

    Your position is like condemning Fistful of Dollars because Clint Eastwood isn't Japanese. Which is why your argument here is baffling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    u shouldn't post pictures of death changing from one goth look to another goth look n say you have a point. I don't go around complaining she should have a hat on all the time. It's irrelevant as well, it's about how she has been basically portrayed that should reflected on live action.
    You apparently missed that there are three looks for Death in that page, and the first of them is decidedly not "goth" in any sense of the word. The one in the painting, with the hat. Not goth in the least. I'm not a fashion historian, but it looks like it's from somewhen in the late 19th/early 20th, and that's just pretty standard dress for the era.

    I know the writer didn't change all the portrayals to unrecognizable and I don't buy his excuses or will ever trust him by rudely dismissing fans.
    What "excuses"? He hasn't made any excuses.

    And the only people he's "dismissed" are racists.

    Comics aren't comparable to live action. That is a step up, and not given to the portrayal we all expected n deserved to see on the screen. That is disrespectful.
    Literally the only way to see this as "disrespectful" is if you think a black actress playing the character is itself a step down, which means you're basing this on a racist attitude.

    The original author is entirely supportive of the casting, based on her audition. Racist fans who demand a white actress are not in any way "owed" the author's subservience on that issue.

    As Gaiman has said; your protests and whines are empty, as you are only complaining about her skin color, and not her ability to portray the character's personality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Game of Thrones completely fucked up the literal Dragons of the series. They're not dragons at all, they're wyverns. Not 4-legged beasts with wings, just 2-legged. Yet it doesn't get in the way of enjoying an adaptation unless you choose to have it affect your enjoyment of it. It's not in the interest of the show creators to have everything be 1:1 faithfully recreated, because the TV show is and always would be just an adaptation.
    This is off-topic, but this taxonomy of dragons is completely ahistorical in terms of how the words have been used; it's something invented wholesale by a handful of fantasy authors and fans in just the last few decades.

    Do a quick Google image search for "Saint George and the Dragon"; it's a hugely popular story from the medieval era, and there are a lot of images from that time depicting the struggle. A lot have four legs. Some have two. Some have none, and the dragon's serpentine. They're all "dragons".


  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Ah...I'm posting just assuming people know the comics...my fault..

    Death in the comics almost exclusively appears as a teenager, not as a woman. While Death at times is her own persona, much is as the teenage girl Didi n her teenage adventures, she embodies punk/metal genre, she even brings up issues like aids, which wasn't talked much about back in the day to young people..(honestly it almost never gets mentioned nowadays now that I think about it.
    I’m reading your replies here, and your problem seems to be less about her not being a teenager, and more about her not being white and anorexic looking.

    It’s pretty damn stupid.
    Fairy tales are more than true–not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I’m reading your replies here, and your problem seems to be less about her not being a teenager, and more about her not being white and anorexic looking.

    It’s pretty damn stupid.
    Who said she should be anorexic looking? I think you are still missunderstanding what I'm trying to say...

    I said one needs to be believable in a role..ok here's an example, Leonardo Dicaprio



    Could Dicaprio when he played in The Beach or Gilbert Grape have been right also for the roles in The wolf of wall street? or Once upon a time in hollywood?
    Also could current day Dicaprio be in the Beach? I'm not talking about anorexia, I simply mean you put on bulk as you age and your face changes to be less child-like.
    Nobody will think the actress for Death will look like a teen. If I had been asked what role she would play in the series if I didn't know, it would this woman, mrs. Robbins



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    One must accept that all film adaptations of comics, stories or novels will only ever be adaptations. Being faithful to the source material is not the goal of an adaptation, and shouldn't really be a factor in the enjoyment of an adaptation.

    Game of Thrones completely fucked up the literal Dragons of the series. They're not dragons at all, they're wyverns. Not 4-legged beasts with wings, just 2-legged. Yet it doesn't get in the way of enjoying an adaptation unless you choose to have it affect your enjoyment of it. It's not in the interest of the show creators to have everything be 1:1 faithfully recreated, because the TV show is and always would be just an adaptation.
    That has more to do with cgi cost, 4 legs is way more animation involved. This is why the budget increases in the later seasons when show has picked up a large audience n is low in the first ones cuz it just got started. We didn't even get to see battles in first seasons, like when the Starks captured Jaimie Lannister, or when Tyrion was going into battle with the 'Wildlings' n his father's army, we see him getting knocked out n the aftermath
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2021-07-05 at 10:59 AM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    I think you are still missunderstanding what I'm trying to say...
    No one is misunderstanding you.

    You started with "She should be white"

    When you got called on that you switched to

    "She should be Goth"

    Now you're trying to lean on "She should be a teen"

    We all understand your problem.


    That has more to do with cgi cost, 4 legs is way more animation involved. This is why the budget increases in the later seasons when show has picked up a large audience n is low in the first ones cuz it just got started. We didn't even get to see battles in first seasons, like when the Starks captured Jaimie Lannister, or when Tyrion was going into battle with the 'Wildlings' n his father's army, we see him getting knocked out n the aftermath
    Tell me you haven't read A Song of Ice and Fire without actually saying those words....

  16. #216
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    TV adaptations of existing works need to not try and subvert expectations of what people know about the franchise. Admittey I've never read the Endless comics so I'm not familiar with the works, so it'll be interesting to see how this show plays out. Hopefully it's actually good and doesn't stray too far from the source material for ideas, whereas shows like Lovecraft Country basically used nothing relating to Lovecraft's cosmic horror genre and it bombed because of it, to the point where it got cancelled after one season. Hollywood is straying into niche parts of nerd culture and they need to stick to making a good show here for it to survive.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    whereas shows like Lovecraft Country basically used nothing relating to Lovecraft's cosmic horror genre
    Probably because its based on a book that came out like 5/6 years ago, not an actual Lovecraft novel. It wasn't even really about the entire Lovecraft mythos.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    One must accept that all film adaptations of comics, stories or novels will only ever be adaptations. Being faithful to the source material is not the goal of an adaptation, and shouldn't really be a factor in the enjoyment of an adaptation.
    i entirely disagree with that, being faithful partake A HUGE role in the adaption and to the enjoyment of people watching. Of course they can't be 100% faithful, but that should be the goal.

    One of the reasons lord of the rings and harry potter made a huge success is because they tried to be as faithful they could to the books, in other hand, things like Eragon and Percy jackson sucked ass and their tentative of adaptation ruined the opportunity to a series of movies.

    Game of Thrones completely fucked up the literal Dragons of the series. They're not dragons at all, they're wyverns. Not 4-legged beasts with wings, just 2-legged. Yet it doesn't get in the way of enjoying an adaptation unless you choose to have it affect your enjoyment of it. It's not in the interest of the show creators to have everything be 1:1 faithfully recreated, because the TV show is and always would be just an adaptation.
    Being offtopic here but, Wyverns are dragons.

    One of the modern things is how people want to claim what is a dragon what is not(kinda weird wanting to claim wyverns aren't dragon because one less pair of legs, while chinese-japanese dragons get a free pass even when they don't look at all like the 4-legged ones) Dragons are a thing in many different cultures and every one of then have their own name/terminology, but what they agree is how dragons are just reptile monsters.

    Wyvern means viper/vipera, basically a venomous snake and dragon draco/draconen is just huge snake

  19. #219
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i entirely disagree with that, being faithful partake A HUGE role in the adaption and to the enjoyment of people watching. Of course they can't be 100% faithful, but that should be the goal.

    One of the reasons lord of the rings and harry potter made a huge success is because they tried to be as faithful they could to the books, in other hand, things like Eragon and Percy jackson sucked ass and their tentative of adaptation ruined the opportunity to a series of movies.
    I’m not a big lotr buff but wouldn’t that be a bad example given that they left out things like the burning of the shire or saruman‘s death unless you have an uncut version and completely changed the tone of some characters like Gimli and to a lesser extent aragorn?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    That has more to do with cgi cost, 4 legs is way more animation involved.
    Nope. It does not.

    It has to do with the creators not wanting a 4-legged 2-winged Dragon depiction in ASOIAF.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i entirely disagree with that, being faithful partake A HUGE role in the adaption and to the enjoyment of people watching. Of course they can't be 100% faithful, but that should be the goal.
    That can never be 100% faithfully created. Adaptations are always their own thing.

    Even something as glorious as the LOTR movies are just adaptations that has to make changes in order to suit the film visual medium. There are plenty of things changed for better or for worse, but whether it is enjoyable or not to people watching is not based on whether it is faithful, but whether the material itself is enjoyable.

    Do you watch LOTR and think it less enjoyable because it doesn't have Tom Bombadil and the creators chose to give some of his lines to Treebeard? To some people this will be a problem, to most of us who recognize an adaptation as an adaptation will forgoe the change for the sake of enjoying the movie adaptation as its own thing. At the end of the day, as faithful or unfaithful an adaptation is, it will never be a true comparison to any original source. The books will always be books. I personally think a movie should be judged for being a movie, rather than whether it is 'like the book'.

    There's plenty of reasons why a movie would succeed or fail despite how faithful of an adaptation they were trying to be. Airbender was terrible, and a lot of it could be pointed at the lack of direction, the bad pacing and the overall bad acting involved. Bladerunner was a fantastic movie, even though it's only loosely based on its source material. We'd all like to dismiss certain movies being bad because they weren't 'faithful to the source', but just as well we have great movies that don't adhere to the source material at all, even though they are still considered adaptations.

    One of the reasons lord of the rings and harry potter made a huge success is because they tried to be as faithful they could to the books, in other hand, things like Eragon and Percy jackson sucked ass and their tentative of adaptation ruined the opportunity to a series of movies.
    What they did right was capturing the spirit of the books, which the Eragon and Percy Jackson movies did not. It's not purely about being faithful to the source, but whether they are able to adapt the same magic that made the books popular.

    Sometimes that does include being more faithful to the source, like comparing the 90's Judge Dredd movie to the more recent Dredd movie. The 90's version was a total miss because it did nothing to adapt the spirit of the Judge Dredd character or graphic novels. Yet an adaptation like Hellboy movies which Guillermo Del Toro took and made his own were way more popular than the recent film which was supposedly 'more faithful to the source material' but was arguably still a worse movie for it. Popularity and enjoyment of a movie adaptation is more than just about being faithful to the source.

    Even a movie like Starship Troopers is an adaptation that is completely unfaithful to the books, but still a fun movie to watch. Being unfaithful to the books is only a problem if you choose it to be one.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-07-05 at 04:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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