[TV] Neil Gaiman's The Sandman

[Endus]

? I am literally talking about color theory juxtaposition of black and white along with juxtaposing cheerfulness with death. Like I said even a white actress would basically need ghost makeup so maybe they do that but who knows.

Your argument is about an obscure metaphorical connection that isn't even true for the character in question, for whom there isn't any "juxtaposition" to be had; neither death nor Death is something to be feared or unhappy about, in the first place. Plus, all the Endless are that pale, which continues to not make any sense with your theory; by your argument, Delight (before she was Delirium) would have been pale to "juxtapose cheerfulness with delight", which is . . . metaphorically meaningless, practically tautological.

This really just is not a thing at all, with the Endless and how they're portrayed, let alone Death herself.

[Xath]

Your argument is about an obscure metaphorical connection that isn't even true for the character in question, for whom there isn't any "juxtaposition" to be had; neither death nor Death is something to be feared or unhappy about, in the first place. Plus, all the Endless are that pale, which continues to not make any sense with your theory; by your argument, Delight (before she was Delirium) would have been pale to "juxtapose cheerfulness with delight", which is . . . metaphorically meaningless, practically tautological.

This really just is not a thing at all, with the Endless and how they're portrayed, let alone Death herself.

Okay you are literally being contrary to be contrary now. Yes Death is absolutely something to be feared and be unhappy about even if you believe in the afterlife it's still an ending.

[SavoirFaire]

is every thread in this forum just the same few posters crying about black people existing in things that arent out yet lmao.

hey xath what do you think of denzel as macbeth?

If we didn’t have that this would be a one page thread just talking about news and updates on the show. Who wants that shit?

[Endus]

Okay you are literally being contrary to be contrary now. Yes Death is absolutely something to be feared and be unhappy about even if you believe in the afterlife it's still an ending.

I'm now doubting you've ever read Sandman, like, ever. The entire characterization of Death revolves around how she's a natural force, the inevitable ending of every beginning, that the ending of life is what gives life its value, that Death is there for everyone as they pass on, and that many people seek death, precisely because it can be a calming end, a passageway to the next stage of their lives. Those who rage against Death in the comics are presented as tragic figures who are largely broken by their futile efforts; that the hatred and fear of Death is unnatural and harmful to the one expressing it.

Particularly with phrases like "even if you believe in the afterlife", because in the comics, that's not up for debate.

And I'm the one "being contrary to be contrary"?

[eschatological]

? I am literally talking about color theory juxtaposition of black and white along with juxtaposing cheerfulness with death. Like I said even a white actress would basically need ghost makeup so maybe they do that but who knows.

Your argument is basically that black people can't be properly goth, or portray a cheerful-acting Death, because they can't pull off the contrast with black clothes well enough.

Which is, of course, fucking nonsense.

[Hansworst]

Your argument is basically that black people can't be properly goth, or portray a cheerful-acting Death, because they can't pull off the contrast with black clothes well enough.

Which is, of course, fucking nonsense.

It's not just nonsense, it's actually racist as fuck.

[Triceron]

Wheel already got displaced by Reacher which has maybe half the budget if that they aren't sharing and usually they share big budgets and basically no star power in terms of casting. It's almost like if you make a faithful adaptation of a beloved work it tends to do very well.

Wheel sucked while Reacher did not. Being a faithful adaptation has nothing to do with simply not sucking like WoT did.

Peacemeaker is better than both and isn't based on anything.

Book of Boba Fett sucked while Mandalorian was great, and both shows have the same creative team behind both shows. Same producers and writers. The difference is Mandalorian was written well and Book of Boba Fett was not.

You gotta look beyond the social issues if we're gonna legitimately talk about why shows did better than others. Race casting isn't the reason why things are great or why they suck.

Even in the LOTR thread, the LOTR movies were great, the Hobbit movies were not. Casting wasn't inclusive at all, and followed exactly the same formula as LOTR did. Movie still sucked.

[Ivanstone]

Peacemeaker is better than both and isn't based on anything.

ToiletSeatHeadMan is based off of a comic. It has the same origins as the Watchmen in fact (old Charlton characters). They just choose to take a more slapstick approach to the same idea.

Its also WOKE. AS. FUCK. Not only does it have an agenda, it smashes you in the face with it. I imagine Sandman or LOTR or whatever the Racist Clown Patrol whines about next will seem quaint in comparison.

[Xath]

Your argument is basically that black people can't be properly goth, or portray a cheerful-acting Death, because they can't pull off the contrast with black clothes well enough.

Which is, of course, fucking nonsense.

No it isn't holy crap. Death isn't Caucasian she is literally white as in the absence of any color contrasted with her clothing much like her personality is contrasted with the typical one we ascribe to death. You refuse to understand color theory. It has nothing to do with being goth I am talking about character design.

A white actress would still need ghost type makeup to fit but it's more likely to happen than a black actress using it because people like you would scream about racism.

[Ivanstone]

No it isn't holy crap. Death isn't Caucasian she is literally white as in the absence of any color contrasted with her clothing much like her personality is contrasted with the typical one we ascribe to death. You refuse to understand color theory. It has nothing to do with being goth I am talking about character design.

A white actress would still need ghost type makeup to fit but it's more likely to happen than a black actress using it because people like you would scream about racism.

Or The Endless change appearance depending on who's viewing the character at the time.


Looks very white?!?!?!

[Endus]

No it isn't holy crap. Death isn't Caucasian she is literally white as in the absence of any color contrasted with her clothing much like her personality is contrasted with the typical one we ascribe to death. You refuse to understand color theory. It has nothing to do with being goth I am talking about character design.

A white actress would still need ghost type makeup to fit but it's more likely to happen than a black actress using it because people like you would scream about racism.

Again, this "color theory" argument is entirely made-up in your own head and does not in any way reflect the actual content of the Endless comics; there is no supposed "juxtaposition" between their skin color and what they represent, as should be obvious given that they're incarnations of wildly disparate concepts (in the case of Delight/Delirium, a changing concept), and they all share the same pattern you're pointing to with Death, specifically, making any such claims of some unique metaphorical meaning completely ludicrous.

It's like trying to argue that Vader wears black because he's evil, and ignoring that Stormtroopers are in white, and Luke wears white or black pretty interchangeably.

[Xath]

Again, this "color theory" argument is entirely made-up in your own head and does not in any way reflect the actual content of the Endless comics; there is no supposed "juxtaposition" between their skin color and what they represent, as should be obvious given that they're incarnations of wildly disparate concepts (in the case of Delight/Delirium, a changing concept), and they all share the same pattern you're pointing to with Death, specifically, making any such claims of some unique metaphorical meaning completely ludicrous.

It's like trying to argue that Vader wears black because he's evil, and ignoring that Stormtroopers are in white, and Luke wears white or black pretty interchangeably.

I'm talking about why the character design is legitimately considered a top 20 character design. Which is the study in contrasts which is highlighted by the color scheme used.

[Endus]

I'm talking about why the character design is legitimately considered a top 20 character design. Which is the study in contrasts which is highlighted by the color scheme used.

Citing no sources, and introducing a metaphor that doesn't actually align with the text itself, somehow.

Edit: Also; black is not the color of death in every culture, even. In Chinese traditional culture, the color associated with death is white, not black. And plenty of other variations around the globe. You're literally making this association up, and neither the text nor global cultural standards agree with it.

[Xath]

I'm now doubting you've ever read Sandman, like, ever. The entire characterization of Death revolves around how she's a natural force, the inevitable ending of every beginning, that the ending of life is what gives life its value, that Death is there for everyone as they pass on, and that many people seek death, precisely because it can be a calming end, a passageway to the next stage of their lives. Those who rage against Death in the comics are presented as tragic figures who are largely broken by their futile efforts; that the hatred and fear of Death is unnatural and harmful to the one expressing it.

Particularly with phrases like "even if you believe in the afterlife", because in the comics, that's not up for debate.

And I'm the one "being contrary to be contrary"?

I am talking about in general as in for normal people Death is absolutely something to be feared, so is the uncertainty of an afterlife. I'm aware of the characterization in Sandman. I am talking about where her design and characteristics resonate with normal readers who shockingly enough do not live in the world of sandman she is study of opposites this is also included in her design.

[Endus]

I am talking about in general as in for normal people

No, you mean for Westerners. Defining that as "normal people" is just fucking wow.

Death is absolutely something to be feared, so is the uncertainty of an afterlife.

There is literally zero uncertainty about the afterlife in the context of Sandman. There's whole issues where we see literal Hell, and chat with Lucifer, beyond all the commentary from Death herself.

I'm aware of the characterization in Sandman. I am talking about where her design and characteristics resonate with normal readers who shockingly enough do not live in the world of sandman she is study of opposites this is also included in her design.

And this is where you go back to making shit up and pretending that's relevant to the text.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I am talking about where her design and characteristics resonate with normal readers who shockingly enough do not live in the world of sandman she is study of opposites this is also included in her design.

Her design, in most of her appearances, is that of a young goth woman. Her skin colour is the same as the rest of the Endless...so it really isn't a specific element of her character design.

The "study of opposites", as you call it, is a matter of her personality contrasting with the dour nature that is stereotypical of how embodiments of Death are portrayed. There's nothing Grim about this Reaper. She doesn't need to be white for this contrast to be evident.

[Xath]

No, you mean for Westerners. Defining that as "normal people" is just fucking wow.



There is literally zero uncertainty about the afterlife in the context of Sandman. There's whole issues where we see literal Hell, and chat with Lucifer, beyond all the commentary from Death herself.



And this is where you go back to making shit up and pretending that's relevant to the text.

Dude in 90% of cultures or more death is mourned. Yes there is an uncertainty of an afterlife for humanity in general. I am not talking about for the inhabitants of the comic I'm talking about for people in general. We don't live in the Sandman universe I know you seem to have trouble with that simple concept but it's true.

[Endus]

Dude in 90% of cultures or more death is mourned.

Which doesn't support your "color theory" nonsense, and is an attempt to shift goalposts.

Yes there is an uncertainty of an afterlife for humanity in general.

Not in the context of the DC universe in general or the Endless comics in specific. Complete certainty. You keep ignoring the context with this argument.

I am not talking about for the inhabitants of the comic I'm talking about for people in general. We don't live in the Sandman universe I know you seem to have trouble with that simple concept but it's true.

I don't have trouble with that concept, it's just irrelevant to the context of the Sandman universe, and you're attempting to use real-world issues to argue that a portrayal of a comic book character who isn't even human needs to be by a white woman because . . . reasons?

You're trying to use her skin color in one interpretation as some kind of strong "color theory" argument, when that theory does not hold up to even the most basic of scrutiny. It doesn't make the least bit of sense, and in the end, you're just angry that what you see as a "white" character (when she's not even human) is being played by a non-white actress.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Dude in 90% of cultures or more death is mourned. Yes there is an uncertainty of an afterlife for humanity in general. I am not talking about for the inhabitants of the comic I'm talking about for people in general. We don't live in the Sandman universe I know you seem to have trouble with that simple concept but it's true.

I'm not really sure how any of this has any relevance to Death's skin colour or even the series as a whole. The majority of the characters we're going to be interacting with aren't going to fear Death...because she's just Dream's big sister. And for the people in that universe that do fear death...they're not really going to be terribly concerned about the skin tone of the individual they meet after they die.

And for people reading the series, any fears they have of death are like completely subverted in terms of their experience reading the comics...becase Death is just exactly the kind of person you'd want to escort you to whatever afterlife awaits you. Which, again, has nothing to do with her skin tone. It's the personality that matters.

[Endus]

I'm not really sure how any of this has any relevance to Death's skin colour or even the series as a whole. The majority of the characters we're going to be interacting with aren't going to fear Death...because she's just Dream's big sister. And for the people in that universe that do fear death...they're not really going to be terribly concerned about the skin tone of the individual they meet after they die.

Plus, the entire point of the character is that she's the one who assuages those fears as someone passes, and helps them along to the afterlife. The overwhelming majority of people she encounters find her a comforting factor. She's literally the incarnation of the concept of Death itself, and the series over and over shows people not being afraid of her when their time actually comes. She's the point where fear becomes nearly irrelevant. The worst has already happened. Now, you just have what's next.

That's the entire point of the character, and why I don't believe for a hot second he's that familiar with the works.