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  1. #21
    Titan Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    He needs to loose lots of weight, dream needs to look very gaunt i thinks..
    They can do wonders with makeup and lighting. He's not exactly fat, as it stands.
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  2. #22
    Aubry Plaza for Death....because she's got the right amount of sass.

    Either that or some unknown who just completely nails the look.

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    They can do wonders with makeup and lighting. He's not exactly fat, as it stands.
    Babyfat on his cheeks

  4. #24
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Peter Stormare was great Lucifer for the Constantine movie, but he is not the Lucifer Morningstar from the Sandman Universe.
    Right. That's Tom Ellis, if this production has any connection whatsoever with that of the Lucifer TV show.

    As much as his take could be silly, the show took pains to make it clear over its run that it's all a facade, covering a pretty deep well of self-loathing and a deep current of anger. Tom Ellis in his more dramatic moments would be just fine, IMO. The biggest complaint you can make, really, is that he's not blonde like the comic iteration, but that's pretty minor.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Aubry Plaza for Death....because she's got the right amount of sass.

    Either that or some unknown who just completely nails the look.
    Not sure on Plaza. She's fantastic in Legion, but in a completely deranged sense. Death was always presented as fairly upbeat, but serious and collected. Not sure we've really seen that out of Plaza.

    Might be a good pick for Delirium, though, unless she's too old; the comics present Delirium as a young teenager. But she's an immortal incarnation of a concept, so that's up in the air a bit.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Babyfat on his cheeks
    Just saying... if "Chubby cheeks" is the only thing you have against him, that's pretty good.
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  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Just saying... if "Chubby cheeks" is the only thing you have against him, that's pretty good.
    He didn't start out great, liked voice towards the end when he got quieter..

    When he was loud, well..sounded like generic angry WoW raid boss...
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2020-04-29 at 02:48 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    No way. She doesn't look like Death at all.
    Sorry, I am pretty bad at photoshop, and this was a super rush attempt. I'm sure hollywood makeup and costume could do much better than me. That's not even a very good picture of Plaza.



    But you know, now that I think about it.... Given all the different art styles and such across all the Sandman graphic novels, I wouldn't be angry at all if they literally used a different actress every time.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Now that I see this image I'm not sure anymore on my opinion of her as Death. Could very well work.
    I think she's got the acting ability. Give her a goth makeup/costume and I bet she could knock it out of the park.

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Acting-wise? Have no opinion but Death is supposed to look like a goth teen...I say give some new kid a shot to play her

    Plaza is 35..

    Well, at least the human Death inhabits in her own comic book

    Seems same age-group as that goofy teen Sexton..



    - - - Updated - - -

    I wonder, all this Covid-19 pause of everything, at least it'll give better scripts with writers given more time..I mean it can't get worse than before, can it?



    https://neil-gaiman.tumblr.com/post/...or-the-sandman

    Neil Gaiman gives an update on Netflix’s The Sandman adaptation

    APRIL 22, 2020 BY RICKY CHURCH

    With film and TV productions having shut down or be delayed in the last few weeks, it should come as no surprise another series has added to the long list of halted productions. Author Neil Gaiman has revealed Netflix’s series adaptation of his Vertigo comic series The Sandman has been delayed due to the ongoing health crisis.

    Gaiman was asked by a fan over his Tumblr page the status of The Sandman, which has languished in various stages of Development Hell for years as others have sought to bring it to life on either television or as a feature film. Though it has been delayed, fans can rest assured that everything is otherwise on track as the first season has been completely written and casting was already underway.

    “It’s going really well, except it’s kind of hibernating right now until people start making TV again,” Gaiman said. “The scripts for the first season are written, casting had started, directors hired, sets were being built. Everything was ready to go into production, and then we moved into a pause. As soon as the world is ready to make TV drama, Sandman will move smoothly back into being made. In the meantime, we are taking the opportunity to get the scripts as good as we can.”

    Gaiman is executive producing the series alongside David Goyer (The Dark Knight) with Allan Heinberg (Wonder Woman) serving as showrunner. Though it has not been made official yet, Gaiman revealed late last year the trio are already planning a second season.
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2020-04-29 at 03:19 PM.

  10. #30
    I got news about a Radio adaption of The Sandman with James McAvoy playing Dream.
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...cBgF8uXGHO9-8g

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  11. #31
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    Damn, the audio drama cast is INSANE. If Netflix's version is even half that good, it'll be a surefire winner.
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  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Odd, I thought lgbtq liked his comics for years, will he sacrifice story for woke? On the other hand he seems to care a lot about his craft, he abandoned his wife n baby during corona outbreak so not to have...'distractions'..


    https://www.superherohype.com/tv/483...man-series/amp

    Neil Gaiman Teases Changes for Netflix’s Sandman Series.

    After decades of failed attempts to bring the Sandman saga to the big or small screen, Neil Gaiman sounds confident that the series will finally come to life on Netflix in the near future. But when the show finally premieres, fans might notice a few key differences. While speaking with ComicBook.com, Gaiman described how he and the series’ producers are approaching the story. Among other details, they’re rethinking how to portray certain characters.

    During the interview, Gaiman discussed both the upcoming Netflix series as well as the Sandman audiobook drama debuting next Wednesday. He explained that turning the story into an audiobook is easier, since it only requires actors to give a dramatic reading of the original comics. However, adapting the series for live-action presents its own set of challenges.

    “But the idea is that we tell the whole thing,” said Gaiman. “We also get to do something that I think is kind of special, which is treat it as an audiobook, because doing the Netflix TV series, we’re very much looking at that as going, ‘Okay, it is 2020, let’s say that I was doing Sandman starting in 2020, what would we do? How would we change things? What gender would this character be? Who would this person be? What would be happening?’”

    Honestly, this shouldn’t surprise anyone. Gender-swapping has become something of a norm in the realm of comic adaptations, especially those that make it to TV. We’ve seen it happen everywhere from The Walking Dead to The Boys and beyond. Not only does this make the show more inclusive, but it also subverts audience expectations and makes the story more exciting.

    The Sandman audiobook hits digital platforms on July 15. The Netflix series is still without a release date.

  13. #33
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    If you're concerned about changes to irrelevant details like a character's gender or ethnicity, if and when those never factored meaningfully into the story in the first place, you're not interested in the story or the character to begin with, and you are the one pushing an agenda, moreso than the author.

    You could make Spider-man a hispanic girl, and it's not an issue; the core parts of the character are that Parker is A> poor/lower middle class, B> youthful, C> a genius, and D> awkward and funny. That it's Peter and a dude really doesn't factor in; you could write Petra Parker who's torn romantically between Glen Stacy and Mark James Watson. Wouldn't change anything meaningful at all. And, arguably, is why Spider-Gwen is such a resounding success of a character, if we're honest.

    If Gaiman's going to tweak the Endless, there's only a few I think have real importance in those details;
    1> Desire. The genderfluidity and such is a core structure for the character. Locking them to a single "aspect" is a loss, IMO.
    2> Death. This was already a genderbend in the first place, and Death's one of the most iconic and beloved of the Endless; getting Death right so the fans like it is gonna be a massive challenge, more than Dream.
    3> Destruction, maybe. His character was a deliberate refutation of some toxic masculinity concepts, and I don't think it "works" without massive changes if you make Destruction a woman. You could theoretically make those changes, though, so I'm a lot less strong on this than the other two.

    And that's it. Despair could be male, easily. Destiny is practically genderless. And Delirium is a genderbend that could be really, really interesting, if you change basically nothing else about the character, and instead of a manic pixie dreamgirl, they're a manic pixie dreamboy. Dream's already passed the mantle to a new bearer in the comic, so flipping that around doesn't hurt anything at all.

    And that's just speaking to gender, I don't see how ethnicity is in any way relevant to the Endless in any respect whatsoever, nor sexual orientation (other than Desire, since "pansexual" is the only thing that makes sense for the concept).


  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    If its not clear, changes within comic should be followed as it was done years ago so as to focus on story for show, which will be difficult to adapt already on what we have.

    If I had an "agenda" I wouldn't have bothered with thread in the first place.

    When I say woke, I mean people sacrifice story for window dressing is what I don't like as that has become so common.
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2020-07-11 at 10:16 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you're concerned about changes to irrelevant details like a character's gender or ethnicity, if and when those never factored meaningfully into the story in the first place, you're not interested in the story or the character to begin with, and you are the one pushing an agenda, moreso than the author.

    You could make Spider-man a hispanic girl, and it's not an issue; the core parts of the character are that Parker is A> poor/lower middle class, B> youthful, C> a genius, and D> awkward and funny. That it's Peter and a dude really doesn't factor in; you could write Petra Parker who's torn romantically between Glen Stacy and Mark James Watson. Wouldn't change anything meaningful at all. And, arguably, is why Spider-Gwen is such a resounding success of a character, if we're honest.
    You seriously don't think the gender, race, sexuality of a character wouldn't change them? Is an Asian girl in an all black area going to have the exact same experience as a black girl? or a white boy? Black boy? Asian boy? Of course not. A poor black kid in the middle of a rural all white area is most likely going to have a different experience than a poor white kid. Sure both may get bullied from being poor, but its likely the black kid will be the only one to experience racism or possibly gain friends easier because they are seen as different and cool.

    Making Spiderman a lesbian requires more changes to the story. Flash Thompson suddenly becomes a bigot/sexist/racist/etc(depending on what you change) if Peter Parker is something else. Suddenly he's not just a dickhead bully but worse. So then you also change Flash into a woman but then she is seen as homophobic so then you have to make her a lesbian as well. Even if you try your damndest to make sure your readers/viewers know that she/he only hates Peter for X you will always have people that see it as bigotry and the character wont due as well. And then also do you then change her from being the star Football player?? Is she still one of the most popular people in school? If all the popular kids in the school are all gay now does that mean gay people don't experience any prejudice in this new universe or is this school somehow special? Does a young girl reading/seeing this then learn that people actually treat her differently because shes ugly and not really because she likes other girls because if you are pretty you can be a lesbian footballer and still be super popular?

  16. #36
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You seriously don't think the gender, race, sexuality of a character wouldn't change them?
    It will change how the story evolves, sure. But that's the reason to do it. It lets you explore new ground.

    It's only a problem if some part of what you changed is a core part of the character's primary arc. You couldn't make Solomon Northup in 12 Years a Slave a white man, because the entire story and his character is firmly defined in the framing of the slavery in the USA.

    You could make Captain Kirk in Star Trek into a Kurdish transgender lesbian and change exactly nothing about the character that matters in any way whatsoever. And given the supposed enlightened future of Star Trek, it shouldn't change how anyone reacts to Kirk, either, even.


  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Odd, I thought lgbtq liked his comics for years, will he sacrifice story for woke? On the other hand he seems to care a lot about his craft, he abandoned his wife n baby during corona outbreak so not to have...'distractions'...
    I think the whole messy divorce thing was the bigger reason for that.

    As for him changing stuff. I mean, we all saw that coming, right? It's my second favourite arc in the whole series, but I can't see a world where Netflix actually make "A Game Of You" exactly how it played out, in the comics. Wanda especially will need some tweaking, for 2020.

    and that's just the first part that comes to mind.

    Same thing for gender/race swapping. While I can't see them changing the gender of any of the Endless (except Desire, obviously) I can absolutely see them racebending a few of them. Destruction, Death and Delirium spring to mind.
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  18. #38
    Dreadlord Femininity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Babyfat on his cheeks
    That's not very inclusive.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It will change how the story evolves, sure. But that's the reason to do it. It lets you explore new ground.

    It's only a problem if some part of what you changed is a core part of the character's primary arc. You couldn't make Solomon Northup in 12 Years a Slave a white man, because the entire story and his character is firmly defined in the framing of the slavery in the USA.
    If you are changing the story to "explore new ground" why would you even use the original character? It either needs to be an alternate version or a new but similar character. Bryce Wayne and the rest of the Dark Knights are cool but they aren't the original Bruce Wayne/Batman.

    Spider-Gwen is cool but she isn't Peter Parker. Even if you changed her name to peter parker she wouldnt be the same person. Sure they started with the same spiderbite but everything quickly changed because she is a different person with a different personality and body.

    You could make Solomon Northup white/mixed or even a woman in the film as both had also been kidnapped/slaves but it wouldn't have been the same character not just because Solomon Northup was an actual living person but because their experiences would be with white slaves being far less common and often times shanghaied not typically sold after battles between tribes/villages. Clairvius Narcisse supposedly had a similar experience of being drugged, kidnapped, and made a slave but because of several small changes to the setting and stuff they are completely different "characters" and stories. The core arcs of them being regular dudes who because of some assholes end up drugged, enslaved, and eventually freed with the criminals never being punished is all the same but the setting, and who they are(Clairvius being the brother of the man who allegedly had him taken, Solomon Northup being a free man who was tricked into going to a place where slavery was legal) completely changes the stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You could make Captain Kirk in Star Trek into a Kurdish transgender lesbian and change exactly nothing about the character that matters in any way whatsoever. And given the supposed enlightened future of Star Trek, it shouldn't change how anyone reacts to Kirk, either, even.
    To you. Just because you personally think Kirk could be a white computer nerd from space Tibet as long as he's still slinging puss and kicking ass doesn't mean hes the same character. They literally had to make an alternate timeline because the original actors were so iconic and the new ones wouldn't have been able to compete. That's not to say it would be a bad character it could very well be awesome it just wouldn't be the same character. You could make a white T'challa but it wouldn't be the same character either he would need to be adopted, Wakanda all whites, etc.... all of which would change the character and his story.

    Your personality, looks, abilities all effect who you are. To think X or Y are the only things that make up a character is just plain silly.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-07-12 at 01:15 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    If you are changing the story to "explore new ground" why would you even use the original character? It either needs to be an alternate version or a new but similar character. Bryce Wayne and the rest of the Dark Knights are cool but they aren't the original Bruce Wayne/Batman.

    Spider-Gwen is cool but she isn't Peter Parker. Even if you changed her name to peter parker she wouldnt be the same person. Sure they started with the same spiderbite but everything quickly changed because she is a different person with a different personality and body.

    You could make Solomon Northup white/mixed or even a woman in the film as both had also been kidnapped/slaves but it wouldn't have been the same character not just because Solomon Northup was an actual living person but because their experiences would be with white slaves being far less common and often times shanghaied not typically sold after battles between tribes/villages. Clairvius Narcisse supposedly had a similar experience of being drugged, kidnapped, and made a slave but because of several small changes to the setting and stuff they are completely different "characters" and stories. The core arcs of them being regular dudes who because of some assholes end up drugged, enslaved, and eventually freed with the criminals never being punished is all the same but the setting, and who they are(Clairvius being the brother of the man who allegedly had him taken, Solomon Northup being a free man who was tricked into going to a place where slavery was legal) completely changes the stories.


    To you. Just because you personally think Kirk could be a white computer nerd from space Tibet as long as he's still slinging puss and kicking ass doesn't mean hes the same character. They literally had to make an alternate timeline because the original actors were so iconic and the new ones wouldn't have been able to compete. That's not to say it would be a bad character it could very well be awesome it just wouldn't be the same character. You could make a white T'challa but it wouldn't be the same character either he would need to be adopted, Wakanda all whites, etc.... all of which would change the character and his story.

    Your personality, looks, abilities all effect who you are. To think X or Y are the only things that make up a character is just plain silly.


    The Endless aren't really human, they don't exactly have the same life experiences. And MOST of them are fairly arbitrary for visual characteristics. Some of them have reasons for why they look the way that they do, as Endus has pointed out, and those reasons are worth preserving. But the reason that Lucifer looks how he does in the comics? Because Neil Gaiman liked David Bowie. That's the reason. If you want to spin an entire tale for how looking like David Bowie is a character defining trait for Lucifer Morningstar, you can take a shot at it, but honestly I have more faith in Neil Gaiman's ability to decide what he considers to be actually important.

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