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  1. #261
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Gotta admit, couldn't go through the comics with it's abundance of text and older art style. But looking forward to this show.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yeah, we're the ones fighting the "ideological battle", not the ones pushing a race-based agenda. Sure, Jan.
    It's amazing how strong of projection those folks do. The only things they are capable of talking about are race, gender, etc. and then they accuse everyone else of being hung up on those things.
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  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And your position on her "iconic look" starts and ends, for you, with the question "is she white enough?"

    You don't care about her costuming.
    You don't care about the actress' capability to express the character.
    You don't care about the writing.

    You care whether she's "white enough" for you.
    People care that character look like they are shown in books/comics. Sometimes the actor is good enough to overcome that but sometimes a mediocre actor can still fit the role because they just look right. Lucifer is a great casting despite not being blond as an example. Who knows Death could be a great casting but stop just screaming racism because people want the appearances to match the comics the same people probably complained about white washing The Major and The Ancient One I certainly did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yeah, we're the ones fighting the "ideological battle", not the ones pushing a race-based agenda. Sure, Jan.
    If you legitimately defended the trash heap that was the sequels I can only assume you did so for political based reasons.

  4. #264
    If Gaiman is okay with the actors/actresses, then I don't think the fans have much right to complain.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    If Gaiman is okay with the actors/actresses, then I don't think the fans have much right to complain.
    You're right.

    Not that that's gonna stop them from complaining anyway

  6. #266
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    People care that character look like they are shown in books/comics. Sometimes the actor is good enough to overcome that but sometimes a mediocre actor can still fit the role because they just look right. Lucifer is a great casting despite not being blond as an example. Who knows Death could be a great casting but stop just screaming racism because people want the appearances to match the comics the same people probably complained about white washing The Major and The Ancient One I certainly did.
    So, matching the comics, like, say, this?



    Cause that's Death, of the Endless, in The Dreaming: Waking Hours. And she's black in that incarnation.



    Also, that the guy on the left here is Dream. And not a different person wearing the mantle; we know that Morpheus held the mantle from the beginnings of time until he chose to die and the mantle went to Daniel Hall. The Endless aren't people. They're incarnations of concepts. Their appearance is entirely malleable, and often seems dependent on whoever's present to see them.

    All stuff people who are fans of the comics should be aware of.

    At the time the backlash was going out (you folks are quoting me from 2021), literally all we knew was the actress cast. Not how her performance was, not her costuming, just the casting decision. So yeah; the backlash was entirely about race. And how she could portray a timeless incarnation of a concept that is not a person and predates humanity itself, predates life itself, and whose appearance is as malleable as she wants it to be.


  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So, matching the comics, like, say, this?



    Cause that's Death, of the Endless, in The Dreaming: Waking Hours. And she's black in that incarnation.



    Also, that the guy on the left here is Dream. And not a different person wearing the mantle; we know that Morpheus held the mantle from the beginnings of time until he chose to die and the mantle went to Daniel Hall. The Endless aren't people. They're incarnations of concepts. Their appearance is entirely malleable, and often seems dependent on whoever's present to see them.

    All stuff people who are fans of the comics should be aware of.

    At the time the backlash was going out (you folks are quoting me from 2021), literally all we knew was the actress cast. Not how her performance was, not her costuming, just the casting decision. So yeah; the backlash was entirely about race. And how she could portray a timeless incarnation of a concept that is not a person and predates humanity itself, predates life itself, and whose appearance is as malleable as she wants it to be.
    You very well know that her most well known incarnation is what people are talking about. It would be interesting if they did have her change between multiple actresses throughout the show but I doubt they do that. Search Death Sandman and 90% of the page is the super pale almost ethereal version.

  8. #268
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    I wonder how these chuds are going to react to Desire, or A Game of You, if they get to that story arc.

    Posting these cringe antiwoke takes about Gaiman material of all things is almost beyond parody. The stuff he was writing 30 years ago was more socially aware than a lot of the stuff being made now. Frankly, I'm doubtful they are fans of the work to begin with, because they'd have to intentionally be missing the point of most of his stuff to have these opinions in the first place.

    The Endless aren't even Caucasian white, their skin is a ghostly, inhumanely, otherworldly white, with a hint of blue mixed in. To the extent that if I were to adapt their "true" forms in live action I'd probably make their skin translucent and emit light.

    But as formless beings, they often shapeshift into whatever the viewer's conception of them would be. Death in particular constantly changes her appearance to comfort the souls she's guiding to the afterlife. There's a whole recurring story arc where Death and Dream are depicted as cats.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2022-02-17 at 04:31 AM.

  9. #269
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You very well know that her most well known incarnation is what people are talking about. It would be interesting if they did have her change between multiple actresses throughout the show but I doubt they do that. Search Death Sandman and 90% of the page is the super pale almost ethereal version.
    Canon is canon though, regardless of what is "most popular" - if they're going with an established character design there's no reasonable argument to make against it.
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    Because fuck you, that's why.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I wonder how these chuds are going to react to Desire, or A Game of You, if they get to that story arc.

    Posting these cringe antiwoke takes about Gaiman material of all things is almost beyond parody. The stuff he was writing 30 years ago was more socially aware than a lot of the stuff being made now. Frankly, I'm doubtful they are fans of the work to begin with, because they'd have to intentionally be missing the point of most of his stuff to have these opinions in the first place.

    The Endless aren't even Caucasian white, their skin is a ghostly, inhumanely, otherworldly white, with a hint of blue mixed in. To the extent that if I were to adapt their "true" forms in live action I'd probably make their skin translucent and emit light.

    But as formless beings, they often shapeshift into whatever the viewer's conception of them would be. Death in particular constantly changes her appearance to comfort the souls she's guiding to the afterlife. There's a whole recurring story arc where Death and Dream are depicted as cats.
    Like I said it would be very cool if they had multiple actresses playing her but I doubt that will happen. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another on this particular casting my issue is more with endus instantly jumping down throats when people don't like changes from what is perceived as the most common appearance.

  11. #271
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You very well know that her most well known incarnation is what people are talking about.
    And? I don't care.

    They don't have a valid point of view that doesn't boil down to "angry that a genderless, raceless, speciesless character is being played by a black woman".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    my issue is more with endus instantly jumping down throats when people don't like changes from what is perceived as the most common appearance.
    Yes, how dare I point out what their argument actually boils down to and leave it hanging there where it comes off really badly.

    That's kinda not on me.


  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And? I don't care.

    They don't have a valid point of view that doesn't boil down to "angry that a genderless, raceless, speciesless character is being played by a black woman".

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, how dare I point out what their argument actually boils down to and leave it hanging there where it comes off really badly.

    That's kinda not on me.
    Except it doesn't and you know this. You literally only defend stuff pushing politics you agree with. You would be spiting fire if the next black panther was made white.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You would be spiting fire if the next black panther was made white.
    Or just spitting fire at a false equivocation like this. Race isn't RELEVANT to the Endless; it very much IS relevant to the Black Panther character.

    If the entire character was written to be about being white, it'd be different; but it's not. Race is not only a purely cosmetic detail here, it's actually CANONICALLY irrelevant (as pointed out above). Whereas with someone like Black Panther it is neither purely cosmetic nor canonically irrelevant, but a fundamental part of the both the character's diegetic history and its design conception.

  14. #274
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Except it doesn't and you know this. You literally only defend stuff pushing politics you agree with. You would be spiting fire if the next black panther was made white.
    I have to wonder why you people who use black panther as an example don’t grab a different character? Like why not use blade or another back hero who isn’t literally all about being black?

    Not being able to see the different between a character built all around there race and one where it’s never actually relevant doesn’t make a good point it just makes you look stupid every time you do it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I have to wonder why you people who use black panther as an example don’t grab a different character? Like why not use blade or another back hero who isn’t literally all about being black?
    To be fair to them, they don't have many to choose from when it comes to that. And Black Panther is the most relevant one at the moment. Which, you think, might give them pause to reconsider their dumbass position, but it never does.

  16. #276
    Nick Fury was white for the longest time, then was made black in the comics almost seemingly in SLJ's image, and then SLJ ended up playing him in the movies. I, for one, could not give a shit if they had cast Nick Fury as a white guy.

    The people who always complain about this always bring out the same old, trope-y "What ifs:" A white man playing MLK, or a white man playing Black Panther. These are characters where race is integral to their identity. I'd have similar problems if a black man was portraying Hitler, for whom race was a defining characteristic of what he believed and the actions he took - if that portrayal was meant to be a historically accurate one. Or if a white man was portraying Charles Taylor, the Liberian dictator. However, we've seen even in shows like Hamilton that portraying historical figures with actors of different races can shed new perspective and provoke more stories, if done correctly. Hamilton doesn't pretend to be a historical musical - and thus it works.

  17. #277
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I have to wonder why you people who use black panther as an example don’t grab a different character? Like why not use blade or another back hero who isn’t literally all about being black?

    Not being able to see the different between a character built all around there race and one where it’s never actually relevant doesn’t make a good point it just makes you look stupid every time you do it.
    Nevermind that blackness and whiteness are totally different things. Whiteness as a concept is exclusionary, and changes with the times to suit regional or national demographics.

    Let's cut to the quick with a more telling hypothetical for these guys...

    How would you feel if a half black guy got cast as Cyborg? How about if they got cast as a Superman?

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Nick Fury was white for the longest time, then was made black in the comics almost seemingly in SLJ's image, and then SLJ ended up playing him in the movies. I, for one, could not give a shit if they had cast Nick Fury as a white guy.
    That's only partially accurate. Nick Fury in the Ultimate Universe was black... and Nick even stated in those issues about how when they made the movie version of the Ultimates (The Avengers in all but name)...that he would be played by SLJ.



    Also mentioned were Brad Pitt as Steve Rogers, Steve Buscemi as Bruce Banner, Johnny Depp as Tony Stark. Mathew McConnaghey as Hank Pym, and Lucy Liu as Janet Van Dyne.

    There is a black Nick Fury in the main marvel universe now... but that's the original's son... Nicholas Joseph Fury, Jr.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Except it doesn't and you know this. You literally only defend stuff pushing politics you agree with. You would be spiting fire if the next black panther was made white.
    You mean the character that has actually BEEN a white guy in the comics?

    I don't know if he'd spitfire about that. Its canon.

    People keep bringing this up in threads this week (this one and the LOTR thread making the same point with the same movie role lol - maybe its the same poster) and it totally doesn't at all mean what they think it means, clearly.

    Because Black Panther has been white in the comics. So there's no argument it should or should not be either color, because BP's been both. (or at least, no argument that stands up to the 'but that's not how the author/writer intended' that people like to try and throw around to justify why an actor's skin color matters when it really does not).
    Last edited by Koriani; 2022-02-17 at 07:52 PM.
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  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    You mean the character that has actually BEEN a white guy in the comics?

    I don't know if he'd spitfire about that. Its canon.

    People keep bringing this up in threads this week (this one and the LOTR thread making the same point with the same movie role lol - maybe its the same poster) and it totally doesn't at all mean what they think it means, clearly.

    Because Black Panther has been white in the comics. So there's no argument it should or should not be either color, because BP's been both. (or at least, no argument that stands up to the 'but that's not how the author/writer intended' that people like to try and throw around to justify why an actor's skin color matters when it really does not).
    You are thinking of white wolf I'm talking about making the exact aame character black much like people ignored that miles morales existed and pushed to change Peter's race instead

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