Gotta admit, couldn't go through the comics with it's abundance of text and older art style. But looking forward to this show.
Gotta admit, couldn't go through the comics with it's abundance of text and older art style. But looking forward to this show.
Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.
People care that character look like they are shown in books/comics. Sometimes the actor is good enough to overcome that but sometimes a mediocre actor can still fit the role because they just look right. Lucifer is a great casting despite not being blond as an example. Who knows Death could be a great casting but stop just screaming racism because people want the appearances to match the comics the same people probably complained about white washing The Major and The Ancient One I certainly did.
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If you legitimately defended the trash heap that was the sequels I can only assume you did so for political based reasons.
If Gaiman is okay with the actors/actresses, then I don't think the fans have much right to complain.
So, matching the comics, like, say, this?
Cause that's Death, of the Endless, in The Dreaming: Waking Hours. And she's black in that incarnation.
Also, that the guy on the left here is Dream. And not a different person wearing the mantle; we know that Morpheus held the mantle from the beginnings of time until he chose to die and the mantle went to Daniel Hall. The Endless aren't people. They're incarnations of concepts. Their appearance is entirely malleable, and often seems dependent on whoever's present to see them.
All stuff people who are fans of the comics should be aware of.
At the time the backlash was going out (you folks are quoting me from 2021), literally all we knew was the actress cast. Not how her performance was, not her costuming, just the casting decision. So yeah; the backlash was entirely about race. And how she could portray a timeless incarnation of a concept that is not a person and predates humanity itself, predates life itself, and whose appearance is as malleable as she wants it to be.
You very well know that her most well known incarnation is what people are talking about. It would be interesting if they did have her change between multiple actresses throughout the show but I doubt they do that. Search Death Sandman and 90% of the page is the super pale almost ethereal version.
I wonder how these chuds are going to react to Desire, or A Game of You, if they get to that story arc.
Posting these cringe antiwoke takes about Gaiman material of all things is almost beyond parody. The stuff he was writing 30 years ago was more socially aware than a lot of the stuff being made now. Frankly, I'm doubtful they are fans of the work to begin with, because they'd have to intentionally be missing the point of most of his stuff to have these opinions in the first place.
The Endless aren't even Caucasian white, their skin is a ghostly, inhumanely, otherworldly white, with a hint of blue mixed in. To the extent that if I were to adapt their "true" forms in live action I'd probably make their skin translucent and emit light.
But as formless beings, they often shapeshift into whatever the viewer's conception of them would be. Death in particular constantly changes her appearance to comfort the souls she's guiding to the afterlife. There's a whole recurring story arc where Death and Dream are depicted as cats.
Last edited by Kathranis; 2022-02-17 at 04:31 AM.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Like I said it would be very cool if they had multiple actresses playing her but I doubt that will happen. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another on this particular casting my issue is more with endus instantly jumping down throats when people don't like changes from what is perceived as the most common appearance.
And? I don't care.
They don't have a valid point of view that doesn't boil down to "angry that a genderless, raceless, speciesless character is being played by a black woman".
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Yes, how dare I point out what their argument actually boils down to and leave it hanging there where it comes off really badly.
That's kinda not on me.
Or just spitting fire at a false equivocation like this. Race isn't RELEVANT to the Endless; it very much IS relevant to the Black Panther character.
If the entire character was written to be about being white, it'd be different; but it's not. Race is not only a purely cosmetic detail here, it's actually CANONICALLY irrelevant (as pointed out above). Whereas with someone like Black Panther it is neither purely cosmetic nor canonically irrelevant, but a fundamental part of the both the character's diegetic history and its design conception.
I have to wonder why you people who use black panther as an example don’t grab a different character? Like why not use blade or another back hero who isn’t literally all about being black?
Not being able to see the different between a character built all around there race and one where it’s never actually relevant doesn’t make a good point it just makes you look stupid every time you do it.
All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.
Nick Fury was white for the longest time, then was made black in the comics almost seemingly in SLJ's image, and then SLJ ended up playing him in the movies. I, for one, could not give a shit if they had cast Nick Fury as a white guy.
The people who always complain about this always bring out the same old, trope-y "What ifs:" A white man playing MLK, or a white man playing Black Panther. These are characters where race is integral to their identity. I'd have similar problems if a black man was portraying Hitler, for whom race was a defining characteristic of what he believed and the actions he took - if that portrayal was meant to be a historically accurate one. Or if a white man was portraying Charles Taylor, the Liberian dictator. However, we've seen even in shows like Hamilton that portraying historical figures with actors of different races can shed new perspective and provoke more stories, if done correctly. Hamilton doesn't pretend to be a historical musical - and thus it works.
Nevermind that blackness and whiteness are totally different things. Whiteness as a concept is exclusionary, and changes with the times to suit regional or national demographics.
Let's cut to the quick with a more telling hypothetical for these guys...
How would you feel if a half black guy got cast as Cyborg? How about if they got cast as a Superman?
That's only partially accurate. Nick Fury in the Ultimate Universe was black... and Nick even stated in those issues about how when they made the movie version of the Ultimates (The Avengers in all but name)...that he would be played by SLJ.
Also mentioned were Brad Pitt as Steve Rogers, Steve Buscemi as Bruce Banner, Johnny Depp as Tony Stark. Mathew McConnaghey as Hank Pym, and Lucy Liu as Janet Van Dyne.
There is a black Nick Fury in the main marvel universe now... but that's the original's son... Nicholas Joseph Fury, Jr.
“The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.
You mean the character that has actually BEEN a white guy in the comics?
I don't know if he'd spitfire about that. Its canon.
People keep bringing this up in threads this week (this one and the LOTR thread making the same point with the same movie role lol - maybe its the same poster) and it totally doesn't at all mean what they think it means, clearly.
Because Black Panther has been white in the comics. So there's no argument it should or should not be either color, because BP's been both. (or at least, no argument that stands up to the 'but that's not how the author/writer intended' that people like to try and throw around to justify why an actor's skin color matters when it really does not).
Last edited by Koriani; 2022-02-17 at 07:52 PM.
Koriani - Guardians of Forever - BM Huntard on TB; Kharmic - Worgen Druid - TB
Koriani - none - Dragon of Secret World
Karmic - Moirae - SWTOR
inactive: Frith-Rae - Horizons/Istaria; Koriani in multiple old MMOs. I been around a long time.