[TV] Neil Gaiman's The Sandman

[Ivanstone]

Peacemeaker is better than both and isn't based on anything.

ToiletSeatHeadMan is based off of a comic. It has the same origins as the Watchmen in fact (old Charlton characters). They just choose to take a more slapstick approach to the same idea.

Its also WOKE. AS. FUCK. Not only does it have an agenda, it smashes you in the face with it. I imagine Sandman or LOTR or whatever the Racist Clown Patrol whines about next will seem quaint in comparison.

[Xath]

Your argument is basically that black people can't be properly goth, or portray a cheerful-acting Death, because they can't pull off the contrast with black clothes well enough.

Which is, of course, fucking nonsense.

No it isn't holy crap. Death isn't Caucasian she is literally white as in the absence of any color contrasted with her clothing much like her personality is contrasted with the typical one we ascribe to death. You refuse to understand color theory. It has nothing to do with being goth I am talking about character design.

A white actress would still need ghost type makeup to fit but it's more likely to happen than a black actress using it because people like you would scream about racism.

[Ivanstone]

No it isn't holy crap. Death isn't Caucasian she is literally white as in the absence of any color contrasted with her clothing much like her personality is contrasted with the typical one we ascribe to death. You refuse to understand color theory. It has nothing to do with being goth I am talking about character design.

A white actress would still need ghost type makeup to fit but it's more likely to happen than a black actress using it because people like you would scream about racism.

Or The Endless change appearance depending on who's viewing the character at the time.


Looks very white?!?!?!

[Endus]

No it isn't holy crap. Death isn't Caucasian she is literally white as in the absence of any color contrasted with her clothing much like her personality is contrasted with the typical one we ascribe to death. You refuse to understand color theory. It has nothing to do with being goth I am talking about character design.

A white actress would still need ghost type makeup to fit but it's more likely to happen than a black actress using it because people like you would scream about racism.

Again, this "color theory" argument is entirely made-up in your own head and does not in any way reflect the actual content of the Endless comics; there is no supposed "juxtaposition" between their skin color and what they represent, as should be obvious given that they're incarnations of wildly disparate concepts (in the case of Delight/Delirium, a changing concept), and they all share the same pattern you're pointing to with Death, specifically, making any such claims of some unique metaphorical meaning completely ludicrous.

It's like trying to argue that Vader wears black because he's evil, and ignoring that Stormtroopers are in white, and Luke wears white or black pretty interchangeably.

[Xath]

Again, this "color theory" argument is entirely made-up in your own head and does not in any way reflect the actual content of the Endless comics; there is no supposed "juxtaposition" between their skin color and what they represent, as should be obvious given that they're incarnations of wildly disparate concepts (in the case of Delight/Delirium, a changing concept), and they all share the same pattern you're pointing to with Death, specifically, making any such claims of some unique metaphorical meaning completely ludicrous.

It's like trying to argue that Vader wears black because he's evil, and ignoring that Stormtroopers are in white, and Luke wears white or black pretty interchangeably.

I'm talking about why the character design is legitimately considered a top 20 character design. Which is the study in contrasts which is highlighted by the color scheme used.

[Endus]

I'm talking about why the character design is legitimately considered a top 20 character design. Which is the study in contrasts which is highlighted by the color scheme used.

Citing no sources, and introducing a metaphor that doesn't actually align with the text itself, somehow.

Edit: Also; black is not the color of death in every culture, even. In Chinese traditional culture, the color associated with death is white, not black. And plenty of other variations around the globe. You're literally making this association up, and neither the text nor global cultural standards agree with it.

[Xath]

I'm now doubting you've ever read Sandman, like, ever. The entire characterization of Death revolves around how she's a natural force, the inevitable ending of every beginning, that the ending of life is what gives life its value, that Death is there for everyone as they pass on, and that many people seek death, precisely because it can be a calming end, a passageway to the next stage of their lives. Those who rage against Death in the comics are presented as tragic figures who are largely broken by their futile efforts; that the hatred and fear of Death is unnatural and harmful to the one expressing it.

Particularly with phrases like "even if you believe in the afterlife", because in the comics, that's not up for debate.

And I'm the one "being contrary to be contrary"?

I am talking about in general as in for normal people Death is absolutely something to be feared, so is the uncertainty of an afterlife. I'm aware of the characterization in Sandman. I am talking about where her design and characteristics resonate with normal readers who shockingly enough do not live in the world of sandman she is study of opposites this is also included in her design.

[Endus]

I am talking about in general as in for normal people

No, you mean for Westerners. Defining that as "normal people" is just fucking wow.

Death is absolutely something to be feared, so is the uncertainty of an afterlife.

There is literally zero uncertainty about the afterlife in the context of Sandman. There's whole issues where we see literal Hell, and chat with Lucifer, beyond all the commentary from Death herself.

I'm aware of the characterization in Sandman. I am talking about where her design and characteristics resonate with normal readers who shockingly enough do not live in the world of sandman she is study of opposites this is also included in her design.

And this is where you go back to making shit up and pretending that's relevant to the text.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I am talking about where her design and characteristics resonate with normal readers who shockingly enough do not live in the world of sandman she is study of opposites this is also included in her design.

Her design, in most of her appearances, is that of a young goth woman. Her skin colour is the same as the rest of the Endless...so it really isn't a specific element of her character design.

The "study of opposites", as you call it, is a matter of her personality contrasting with the dour nature that is stereotypical of how embodiments of Death are portrayed. There's nothing Grim about this Reaper. She doesn't need to be white for this contrast to be evident.

[Xath]

No, you mean for Westerners. Defining that as "normal people" is just fucking wow.



There is literally zero uncertainty about the afterlife in the context of Sandman. There's whole issues where we see literal Hell, and chat with Lucifer, beyond all the commentary from Death herself.



And this is where you go back to making shit up and pretending that's relevant to the text.

Dude in 90% of cultures or more death is mourned. Yes there is an uncertainty of an afterlife for humanity in general. I am not talking about for the inhabitants of the comic I'm talking about for people in general. We don't live in the Sandman universe I know you seem to have trouble with that simple concept but it's true.

[Endus]

Dude in 90% of cultures or more death is mourned.

Which doesn't support your "color theory" nonsense, and is an attempt to shift goalposts.

Yes there is an uncertainty of an afterlife for humanity in general.

Not in the context of the DC universe in general or the Endless comics in specific. Complete certainty. You keep ignoring the context with this argument.

I am not talking about for the inhabitants of the comic I'm talking about for people in general. We don't live in the Sandman universe I know you seem to have trouble with that simple concept but it's true.

I don't have trouble with that concept, it's just irrelevant to the context of the Sandman universe, and you're attempting to use real-world issues to argue that a portrayal of a comic book character who isn't even human needs to be by a white woman because . . . reasons?

You're trying to use her skin color in one interpretation as some kind of strong "color theory" argument, when that theory does not hold up to even the most basic of scrutiny. It doesn't make the least bit of sense, and in the end, you're just angry that what you see as a "white" character (when she's not even human) is being played by a non-white actress.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Dude in 90% of cultures or more death is mourned. Yes there is an uncertainty of an afterlife for humanity in general. I am not talking about for the inhabitants of the comic I'm talking about for people in general. We don't live in the Sandman universe I know you seem to have trouble with that simple concept but it's true.

I'm not really sure how any of this has any relevance to Death's skin colour or even the series as a whole. The majority of the characters we're going to be interacting with aren't going to fear Death...because she's just Dream's big sister. And for the people in that universe that do fear death...they're not really going to be terribly concerned about the skin tone of the individual they meet after they die.

And for people reading the series, any fears they have of death are like completely subverted in terms of their experience reading the comics...becase Death is just exactly the kind of person you'd want to escort you to whatever afterlife awaits you. Which, again, has nothing to do with her skin tone. It's the personality that matters.

[Endus]

I'm not really sure how any of this has any relevance to Death's skin colour or even the series as a whole. The majority of the characters we're going to be interacting with aren't going to fear Death...because she's just Dream's big sister. And for the people in that universe that do fear death...they're not really going to be terribly concerned about the skin tone of the individual they meet after they die.

Plus, the entire point of the character is that she's the one who assuages those fears as someone passes, and helps them along to the afterlife. The overwhelming majority of people she encounters find her a comforting factor. She's literally the incarnation of the concept of Death itself, and the series over and over shows people not being afraid of her when their time actually comes. She's the point where fear becomes nearly irrelevant. The worst has already happened. Now, you just have what's next.

That's the entire point of the character, and why I don't believe for a hot second he's that familiar with the works.

[Rennadrel]

Considering some of Netflix's other adaptations recently, I honestly am holding my reservations. It's already a niche brand of comics and the writing quality for a lot of Netflix shows recently has been awful, with a few exceptions. I don't expect this to be anywhere near as interesting as the comics were.

[Endus]

Considering some of Netflix's other adaptations recently, I honestly am holding my reservations. It's already a niche brand of comics and the writing quality for a lot of Netflix shows recently has been awful, with a few exceptions. I don't expect this to be anywhere near as interesting as the comics were.

I mean, Gaiman himself's been involved in the production from the beginning. If you're expecting a 1:1 translation from comic page to screen, though, you should check those expectations; Gaiman's the kind of author who'll freely change and modify elements to adapt to different media or because it tells a slightly different story he wants to explore.

[Biomega]

It's looking good so far. It's not like Netflix kills EVERYTHING it touches - they have good stuff, too. This might well be that. Guess we'll have to wait and see!

[Infinity Cubed]

I have high hopes for the show even if I'm not crazy about some of the casting choices. I'm just not crazy about changing things for the sake of changing them. But Neil Gaiman has won a lot of good will with me, so I'm willing to give it a shot and I just hope they cast people for their talent rather than their appearance/to meet a diversity quota (aka "the bad form of diversity").

[Demeia]

Nothing about this casting "shreds" the character. You're just reacting badly because a black actor was cast. Your only issue is that Death won't be "caucasian enough" for you, and it doesn't go any deeper than that for you; that's the only thing you care about with regards to the character or the casting.

Because you're sure not reacting against Howell-Baptiste's portrayal of the character or even her look, since we've had nothing but the casting announcement.

I'm not especially comfortable with this because Gaiman had a chance in the original comic to give his characters more racial diversity. He chose not to. The artist chose not to. I can't believe a DC editor said to Gaiman, "don't make death black, the audience won't like it!" He can say he wants to change the casting, that's fine, but he can't complain that people are saying, "Dude, this isn't even remotely like the way the characters were drawn in the comics." He has to take on board the complaints and admit this may be jarring to some fans.

And then, you know, if he wants to write racially diverse characters he should consider doing that in the first place.

[Endus]

I'm not especially comfortable with this because Gaiman had a chance in the original comic to give his characters more racial diversity. He chose not to. The artist chose not to. I can't believe a DC editor said to Gaiman, "don't make death black, the audience won't like it!" He can say he wants to change the casting, that's fine, but he can't complain that people are saying, "Dude, this isn't even remotely like the way the characters were drawn in the comics." He has to take on board the complaints and admit this may be jarring to some fans.

And then, you know, if he wants to write racially diverse characters he should consider doing that in the first place.

Tell me you've never read the comics, without telling me you've never read the comics, I guess.

[Xath]

Which doesn't support your "color theory" nonsense, and is an attempt to shift goalposts.



Not in the context of the DC universe in general or the Endless comics in specific. Complete certainty. You keep ignoring the context with this argument.



I don't have trouble with that concept, it's just irrelevant to the context of the Sandman universe, and you're attempting to use real-world issues to argue that a portrayal of a comic book character who isn't even human needs to be by a white woman because . . . reasons?

You're trying to use her skin color in one interpretation as some kind of strong "color theory" argument, when that theory does not hold up to even the most basic of scrutiny. It doesn't make the least bit of sense, and in the end, you're just angry that what you see as a "white" character (when she's not even human) is being played by a non-white actress.

I really really hate your dishonest crap. I explained my issue with it the character is a study in opposites she isn't Caucasian she is literally the absence of color wearing the amalgamation of all colors. If you insist on making her black then she should be wearing white which she obviously won't be. For an example of swapping that was actually done correctly even if I would prefer just matching the comics is Domino in Deadpool 2 they didn't just keep the black coloration when they decided to cast a black actress they changed it to white essentially inverting the color scheme of the character.

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Plus, the entire point of the character is that she's the one who assuages those fears as someone passes, and helps them along to the afterlife. The overwhelming majority of people she encounters find her a comforting factor. She's literally the incarnation of the concept of Death itself, and the series over and over shows people not being afraid of her when their time actually comes. She's the point where fear becomes nearly irrelevant. The worst has already happened. Now, you just have what's next.

That's the entire point of the character, and why I don't believe for a hot second he's that familiar with the works.

Can you be any more dishonest? Seriously I'm asking. I am not talking about her perception I am talking about how people in general perceive death and why she is a study in opposites which is what makes her comforting. Also death isn't the worst thing that can happen it's seen as the end but sometimes the end is merciful however it's still something to be feared.