Heroic Il'gynoth MC Positioning

[Trend]

Curious to get some opinions. In a casual raid still working through Heroic (yeah I know) and Il'gynoth is killed regularly now without much issue but a disagreement came up in the last kill. After the kill, our asshole tank who isn't a raid leader or guild officer took it upon himself to call people out for positioning. The first thing he ranted about was positioning before the last MC. This is the moment right before that round of MC's go off:



I am far from perfect and I try to learn from each pull, but I don't think my positioning makes the top 5 list of things that can be cleaned up in this arrangement. For those who understand the encounter, in order of priority what issues here would you want to address to fix?

[Video Games]

You guys are spread out too much tbh. You want to be close enough to be ccd and trained asap. Youre also losing an enormous amount of dps by having melee go all the way to the back like that

[Colmadero]

We just started progression on this very same boss and what the poster above said is true. You are way too spread. You need to be (almost) hugging each other except about 5 seconds before the MCs go out. At that point, it's every man for himself and CC's need to go out.

[Trend]

We just started progression on this very same boss and what the poster above said is true. You are way too spread. You need to be (almost) hugging each other except about 5 seconds before the MCs go out. At that point, it's every man for himself and CC's need to go out.

To be clear, this is a fraction of a second before the MC cast completes. People were stacked 5 seconds before this.

[munkeyinorbit]

Your biggest issue is the tank. It will only get worse. Kick the tank and get someone else. Fit with guild is a lot more important than anything else. It's suppose to be fun right?

We were progressing on H Manarock or somethig and the tank was being a cock as usual. We had not looked like killing it previously. This was the begining of the night but we decided then and there we had enough. Kick. We got a dps to change spec and we killed the boss. It didn't matter that the new tank hadn't tanked the fight, the rest of the raid was just shit at it too (and the tank picked it up before we got the dps doing what they were suppose to). We killed it because people were free from the Dickery the tank brought and could play better.

Act like a leader and do what's best for the guild.

[Trend]

Your biggest issue is the tank. It will only get worse. Kick the tank and get someone else. Fit with guild is a lot more important than anything else. It's suppose to be fun right?

We were progressing on H Manarock or somethig and the tank was being a cock as usual. We had not looked like killing it previously. This was the begining of the night but we decided then and there we had enough. Kick. We got a dps to change spec and we killed the boss. It didn't matter that the new tank hadn't tanked the fight, the rest of the raid was just shit at it too (and the tank picked it up before we got the dps doing what they were suppose to). We killed it because people were free from the Dickery the tank brought and could play better.

Act like a leader and do what's best for the guild.

I'm not the leader or even an officer. I would have kicked his d'bag ass a while ago when he did the typical powertrip bullshit a lot of tanks do in wanting to have his opinion carry more weight since he's a tank ... as if that's hard to do in a raid.

I am just never going to group with him again because he is an asshole. But at the same time I am genuinely curious if there is something I am missing. He called out one specific player for their position at this very instance in time captured by the replay. I think he's an idiot but if other people see this and call out the same thing I would want to know that I was wrong.

[Vandamonia]

just because someone isnt a RL or officer dosnt mean they cant call people out rofl

[Trend]

just because someone isnt a RL or officer dosnt mean they cant call people out rofl

I guarantee you have what I would consider a shit and toxic raid if it is everyone's place to call people out lmao. All that leads to is a bunch of arguments and hard feeling because there is no authority behind it. Constructive discussion on what can be done better is quite a different story and it is great if all your raiders are participating in that.

[Kalcifur]

Not calling anything out, but the things that one player may call toxicity might be constructive discussion to another.

At a glance i can see a few massive problems. The moonkin ar the north end of the map is kiting his blood to russia, that's no good, those things should be mostly dead before mcs go out. Your healers are bashed into the walls, they should be telling the dps to get the heck out of the way so they can get into position to reach the raid. The rsham is doing his best but there's no way to get healing coverage in this huge spread.

The ranged dps should have surrounded the melee, and this position is closing in on that goal, more effort into the adds will go a long way to helping this. Lastly for the positioning stuff, if you are in a main phase of the fight there shouldnt be people in front of an unkilled organ. Dropping pools in that area will just punnish you later.

Idk who your tank was calling out, if it was the moonkin, he is correct. If it was the healers cuddling on the next organ he is also correct. That's all i can glean from a positioning ss though, take with a grain of salt. In almost all cases how feedback is portrayed matters far more than the actual content. The more you can tell us about your situation the better our feedback can be

[Vandamonia]

No, its called a functional raid, everyone understands that people will call them out on their shit if they repeatedly fuck up

[prwraith]

That is overkill regarding those MC's if I have ever seen it lol.

[Alvito]

I guarantee you have what I would consider a shit and toxic raid if it is everyone's place to call people out lmao. All that leads to is a bunch of arguments and hard feeling because there is no authority behind it. Constructive discussion on what can be done better is quite a different story and it is great if all your raiders are participating in that.

There is a huge difference between calling a spade a spade and being a shithead about it. Nobody whatever their role in the raid should be a dick, the flipside is everybody to some degree should feel comfortable and be trusted enough to point out issues they see.

As far as that fight you don't need to be nearly that spread, now the on demand snap stuns, roots and slows might alter things. I know when we first started doing that fight our mages all went frost for the extra control and the ability to ice block every mc if they get it. We have had a pull where only mages and pallies were mc'd and they were all instantly immuned. With 3 mages, a boomkin, shammy and monk you should have no issue with mind controls. Also making the warriors and other melee go all the way to the back is silly. Now if 1 of your 3 mages went frost or even better 2 or 3 you would never have another mc issue.

[Ryuda]

Looking at it at a glance, gleaning as much as I can from a still screenshot:

The 3-4 people at the far north (Boomkin, Fire Mage, Spriest, and to a slightly lesser extent, Ele Sham) are way too far from others, if any one of them gets/got MC'd, it seems likely that they're going to spread it (especially the spriest, since they're the only on-demand decent duration Stun. It's also easy to picture a scenario where the Boomkin gets MC'd and runs over to the BrM, which is likely to cause a major headache, or even a wipe.) Even kiting a slime, there's no reason for those 3 or 4 people to be that far out.

As others mentioned, the weird clump of healers sitting nearly on top of each other at the next organ just seems to scream 'unawareness' to me. I see 10 people who are almost certainly out of range of any healer that isn't the RSham, and the BrM looks to be outranging everyone other than maybe the paladin, assuming their Rule of law is up. Healers definitely need to communicate more and figure out their general positioning.

The DH literally on top of the Fire Mage obviously wasn't paying attention to DBM timers, and I'm guessing panic Fel Rushed backwards. Hopefully one of them didn't get MC'd.

The UH DK at the top's positioning is just...odd. He ran so much further than he had to for such a low mobility class, and is almost right next to that lock, yet there's about a mile of open space between the boss and where he is.

Not sure if any of that is helpful, but yeah, the positioning I'm looking at is pretty bad. At least 9 people could easily improve their position/timing and make things a lot smoother.

[DazManianDevil]

You've gotten some good feedback so far, one thing I would add is the idea of add placement.
In my raid on Heroic kills the prio is, fixed by add you run into melee so it can be cleaved down. This will vary a bit based on comp, but why the boomkin is kiting his add to Africa makes 0 sense.
Why 4 ranged dps are that far north in general seems perplexing given you're going onto 3rd organ.

Your mileage may differ, without logs I can't see your kill times. In our group we skip the first set of MCs so our damage might be a bit higher than a normal group.

iirc I've always seen the organ die, and you get 5-15 seconds to dps the boss before the MC comes out, making the melee placement in your photo also odd but again, could be a timers issue.

Edit: 4 Warriors and only 1 BM Hunter. Manliest raid comp I've seen in a hot minute, I admire the hustle.

[munkeyinorbit]

just because someone isnt a RL or officer dosnt mean they cant call people out rofl

It does if it wrecks the vibe of the group. We are talking pretty casual play here where the majority of raiders are at. People who have not been assigned leadership roles should keep their mouth shut. Tank is not a leadership role. Tank should keep his whore mouth shut. It doesn't even matter if tank was right or wrong.

At this level people are pretty knowledgeable but are hardly pushing for hardcore progression. They are there for fun and killing bosses us fun. But when a douchebag decides that they know better than others and starts pointing fingers it disrupts the guild and the fun leaves.

[Trend]

Thank you for all the feedback. I agree with most everything said. The one real unfortunate thing with the playback is that it does not easily show where the pools get dropped and it's not worth the time to figure that out manually. I know it was a big issue with such a melee heavy group with the areas of the first two organs getting filled up with poop near the boss.

Anyway, I always think it's a great exercise to go back and watch a replay and I almost invariably ask why the hell I did certain things given the benefit of hindsight. Sometimes there is a partially legit reason, but a lot of times not. Realizing this helps up the play the next week.

- - - Updated - - -

It does if it wrecks the vibe of the group. We are talking pretty casual play here where the majority of raiders are at. People who have not been assigned leadership roles should keep their mouth shut. Tank is not a leadership role. Tank should keep his whore mouth shut. It doesn't even matter if tank was right or wrong.

At this level people are pretty knowledgeable but are hardly pushing for hardcore progression. They are there for fun and killing bosses us fun. But when a douchebag decides that they know better than others and starts pointing fingers it disrupts the guild and the fun leaves.

This exactly. And I would add that someone with a track record of being nice and helpful has a lot more natural latitude to be pointed in comments. Someone who is consistently selfish and/or abrasive is more likely to just cause disharmony.

[munkeyinorbit]

Thank you for all the feedback. I agree with most everything said. The one real unfortunate thing with the playback is that it does not easily show where the pools get dropped and it's not worth the time to figure that out manually. I know it was a big issue with such a melee heavy group with the areas of the first two organs getting filled up with poop near the boss.

Anyway, I always think it's a great exercise to go back and watch a replay and I almost invariably ask why the hell I did certain things given the benefit of hindsight. Sometimes there is a partially legit reason, but a lot of times not. Realizing this helps up the play the next week.

- - - Updated - - -



This exactly. And I would add that someone with a track record of being nice and helpful has a lot more natural latitude to be pointed in comments. Someone who is consistently selfish and/or abrasive is more likely to just cause disharmony.

I agree. I think I am too selfish a lot of times and I don't like people doing things in ways that I don't agree with. Angry old man syndrome. But one thing wow has taught me whether it's server first type content or family and friends level, guild harmony is preferable to being the best. A guild that enjoys raiding together is usually better than one that doesn't.

In my heyday where I was in server first guilds (world top 50) we were ruled by an iron fist. If you didn't tow the guild line (basically the GM) then you were out. It needed like minded individuals willing to buy into one vision. It worked and generally we were successful. It fell apart when the vision became diluted with other voices that we couldn't remove because "that guys dps is amazing" or "he's out main tank".

Now I am in a family and friends guild and personally I prefer that because of the lols. When people fuck up and do something really stupid it can lead to the funniest moments. Especially when they used to be considered best players of that class on a server. We work best when we have the one voice guiding us through. We haven't been afraid to remove dick heads as ultimately it proves to be beneficial to the guild. We have fluctuated between 6 and 20 raiders but we keep on killing bosses.

This has taught me that even though I'm a fucking dick, setting my selfish thoughts aside generally leads to better results.

[Kluian05]

Everyone needs to be in the same quadrant, after the 2nd beam targets, there will be an MC coming out ~5 seconds. Then everyone needs to just make sure they are 5+ yards apart so initial MC's don't spread. We were running 2/2/8, so only had 2 MC's to deal with. Our bookin would aoe root the melee for instant CC and priority would be range/healer target first, then break melee out. Make sure all MC's are slowed if not CC'd!

[Huzzaa]

Most of your issues were already pointed out.

You speak of callouts though and if or not he was wrong or something.

Who was the tank, who did he call out?

Who are you?

This is lackluster information here.

The only thing we can tell you is.

The raid positioning is indeed trash, the tank is right in that regard, whoever he is. And we can't really tell you much about where to move or who could've improved other than what was already said earlier.

You should technically all be near to the next organ about to be killed, loosely spread before the MC, ready to nuke them down.

My guess is, the reason you're so atrociously spread is because people have failed on saving space with the patches, OR they are desperately trying to dps the bloods as soon as they pop out of their holes. Which, really shouldn't be so that half the raid is practically between 2 dead organs. My 2cents.

Apologies ahead of time if I come across harsh, but well, here you go...

[Trend]

This is lackluster information here.

I was intentionally vague because I did not want to bias feedback and I don't think you understood the premise of my query. While the general feedback has been interesting, that's really not what the question was for a couple of reasons:
- You can always find improvements and much of what has been offered that is realistic (i.e., getting a 24 man raid spread for MC in a single quadrant is not realistic) is something immediately obvious just by looking at the replay
- It is an easy fight and the incident in question occurred on a routine kill ... the context is not that I am struggling to figure out how to beat this

I will put what the question is in another way: is the positioning at the exact point in time provided (immediately before MC's go out) such that one specific player is so unreasonably out of position for the MC pop that it would be rational to make a personalized attack against that specific player for their gross individually specific failure?

Even given the fact that melee was very sloppy with dropping pools, the team could have been clustered in a little tighter. Interestingly, however, none of the actual causes of any of our wipes in the past would be improved by being packed in tighter for MC's. And I would dispute your opinion that the "raid positioning is indeed trash". While there are some things to improve, the raid is positioned for consistent easy kills and even in a worst case RNG scenario there would not have been a wipe from MC cascading or taking too long to be broken. I'm guessing that since I posted a question you figured you need some condescension in order to reply since I'm just a little noob that needs your help.

In any case, thanks for the feedback but my question has already been answered by not being answered.