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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    conflict and strife isnt that hard to get, blood of the enemy on the other hand is mega aids
    They’re both terrible.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    They’re both terrible.
    PvP is still a piece of current content at least though.

    Now... CLF on the other hand should at least have a different means of obtaining it, who's doing EP at the moment.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And when that goal is to get AP and you don't do that, then that player is not doing the AP grind. Doing dungeons to get gear repetitively is a grind, but then that player is not doing the AP-grind because that is not their goal(citation, your own link) But, in your case, everything in WoW is a grind. Is it not? And don't say no to that question, because then you are talking against your own point. According to you everything in WoW is a grind, so no one can actually complain about the grind because logging into WoW makes us automatically grinding.

    Context is king. When people are talking about a grind in WoW they talk about going out of their way to get something that takes both time and extra effort. So people who do the content like raiding twice a week or doing 5 dungeons a week are not grinding. Doing 50 islands a week and every AP WQ on the map is a grind. Doing 3 emissaries, and 30 WQs a week is NOT a grind. You should read that thing you linked again and think about what you are trying to push here.
    I'd accept the idea that everything in WoW is a grind, and I never said people should/shouldn't complain. This whole thing stems from me saying the AP grind was required, to which people suggested there was no grind.

    Context is important - but you're using to decide what is/ is not grinding. That's wrong. It doesn't matter if you do 5 islands or 50 - you're grinding either way. I'm not changing the definitions here, you are.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'd accept the idea that everything in WoW is a grind, and I never said people should/shouldn't complain. This whole thing stems from me saying the AP grind was required, to which people suggested there was no grind.

    Context is important - but you're using to decide what is/ is not grinding. That's wrong. It doesn't matter if you do 5 islands or 50 - you're grinding either way. I'm not changing the definitions here, you are.
    I think the thing is, people consider things a grind if they don't exactly enjoy what they have to do. I wouldn't consider 5 islands a grind cause I kind of like doing those 5 islands.

    Doing every AP WQ on the other hand... yea I consider that a grind. So really, what is considered a grind will vary from person to person.

    There's probably some crazy person out there who loves WQs so much that they don't consider them a grind.

  5. #205
    Grinds are fine if they're rewarding. These grinds, however, should not directly impact the overall power of a character the way they currently do. You shouldn't be at a severe disadvantage for weeks simply because you don't have level x of this, or you need to farm to catch up for that. You don't have decent powers, or abilities, or ranks, or this or that. That's not how you make content that people want to do.

    All of this also affects returning players from returning simply because there's so much shit all vomited all over the place without a clear purpose that, in the end, there's no real straightforward goal, either, and all of it is simply unrewarding in its own way.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Learn what? I know that definition. The problem comes with the nuances that seem rather lost on you. By your logic, i could grind an edge by drawing a steel bar across a rock once a week.

    Grinding isn't just any repeated action. It is repeating an action quickly for extended periods. Doing 3 islands a week isn't grinding.

    That's also why it's described as "repetitive" rather than just "repeating", by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    Grinds are fine if they're rewarding. These grinds, however, should not directly impact the overall power of a character the way they currently do. You shouldn't be at a severe disadvantage for weeks simply because you don't have level x of this, or you need to farm to catch up for that. You don't have decent powers, or abilities, or ranks, or this or that. That's not how you make content that people want to do.
    And they didn't. People just keep pretending they do. The disadvantage of being behind is actually much less than the effort required to get significantly ahead.

    If you don't have your heart at 75 by now, you aren't doing anything that would benefit significantly from that anyway.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I think the thing is, people consider things a grind if they don't exactly enjoy what they have to do. I wouldn't consider 5 islands a grind cause I kind of like doing those 5 islands.

    Doing every AP WQ on the other hand... yea I consider that a grind. So really, what is considered a grind will vary from person to person.

    There's probably some crazy person out there who loves WQs so much that they don't consider them a grind.
    I'd agree with you on that. Personally I find clearing the map of AP WQ's but that's just me personally - is a grind inherently unfun? Does something being unfun make it a grind? Or can you enjoy a grind but it's still a grind regardless - who knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Learn what? I know that definition. The problem comes with the nuances that seem rather lost on you. By your logic, i could grind an edge by drawing a steel bar across a rock once a week.

    Grinding isn't just any repeated action. It is repeating an action quickly for extended periods. Doing 3 islands a week isn't grinding.

    That's also why it's described as "repetitive" rather than just "repeating", by the way.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And they didn't. People just keep pretending they do. The disadvantage of being behind is actually much less than the effort required to get significantly ahead.

    If you don't have your heart at 75 by now, you aren't doing anything that would benefit significantly from that anyway.
    Like I've said, I'm not the one changing what things mean. There is no nuance for me to miss

    Are you doing something repetitively for an end goal? Then you're grinding my friend, simple as that

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'd agree with you on that. Personally I find clearing the map of AP WQ's but that's just me personally - is a grind inherently unfun? Does something being unfun make it a grind? Or can you enjoy a grind but it's still a grind regardless - who knows
    Yea, it's like... there's a definition of grind (doing a task over and over to accomplish an end goal, grinding dungeons for gear, grinding quests for xp/rep, etc) but by the definition the whole game is a grind. What people generally CALL a grind is the parts of the game they don't particularly like or find interesting.

    Like, how often do you see people call raiding a grind? It really is, you do the same thing every week, but for the people who enjoy it they'll never label it that.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    You don't have to fucking farm anything. Stop acting like if you are not super up to date you'll be useless. You can easily blue parse with level 35 neck and no essences.

    Shit you're not limit or method. So stop acting like you have to be level 80 super hard core to get anywhere.
    Try playing arenas and then come tell us how you don't need essences and shit. Because yes, some people play this game for PvP and before you say old chestnut BS like "this is a pve game" or "nobody cares about arena", we pay exactly the same subscription fee as you do and we deserve to have our voice heard too.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    If you consider just playing the game to be a chore, that is fine - that is an opinion one can have. However - as to why you are playing a game you don't enjoy, that is a mystery.
    If you consider all forms of content in the game to be equally "playing the game" you're vastly mistaken. Imagine thinking "picking flowers" is on par with "flying a fighter jet in a dogfight scenario for the army."

    That is the difference between the type of content I want to be playing (anything on-par with heroic raid difficulty or higher, such as Mage Tower) and content the game is trying to entice me to partake in (world quests, islands, NJ dailies, etc).

    The basic combat loop of "spam buttons and things die" isn't in and of itself fun or rewarding, because until you start necessitating people hitting those buttons in proper order to succeed, "skill" doesn't matter in the outcome, and thus makes it seem inconsequential. Ergo, if this is all the game was, I would have dropped it a LONG LONG time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Like, how often do you see people call raiding a grind? It really is, you do the same thing every week, but for the people who enjoy it they'll never label it that.
    I don't speak for everyone else, and I've come across plenty of people of the opposite mindset, but my feeling is that I'd raid even without any reward. The novel experience of a first down on a boss is great. The continuing experience of refining your play and upping your damage/parse percentile is great. If they removed gear and we were all under stat templates, I would still get both of those experiences out of raids, and thus, I'd still do them.

    The gear is a means to an end (ensuring I'm on-par with everyone else so I can continue to be competitive). Not the reason or the goal.

    I think most people who full clear mythic would fall into the same boat, as well as a decent chunk of heroic raiders.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    You don't have to fucking farm anything. Stop acting like if you are not super up to date you'll be useless. You can easily blue parse with level 35 neck and no essences.

    Shit you're not limit or method. So stop acting like you have to be level 80 super hard core to get anywhere.
    Do you need an 80 neck? No.
    Do you need essences? Fuck yes you do, I just did a +10 UR and my essences overall were 35% of my damage

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    No, they showed the Soul-Link talent tree. They explicitly said there is no more AP grind.

    Anima that you will grind to cap each week? Yes. Infinite grind? No.

    inb4 w-well they lie!!!!
    To be fair, we've heard this kind of thing from them before and it turned out to be a lie..so.... cant really blame people for being skeptical of what they say

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    You don't have to fucking farm anything. Stop acting like if you are not super up to date you'll be useless. You can easily blue parse with level 35 neck and no essences.
    Blue parse means I would KMS. I play this game to epeen flex. I don't give a damn about "helping the guild" or "downing the boss." That shit happens naturally. I care the most about feeling like I'm carrying the fuck out of my raid and also seeing nice orange numbers next to my profile on warcraft logs.

    Shit you're not limit or method. So stop acting like you have to be level 80 super hard core to get anywhere.
    Stop invalidating people's own artificially created goals. They're interested in what they're interested in, and there's a huge part of the community that could achieve their goals in the past that can no longer achieve those goals without immensely more chores associated.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    If you consider all forms of content in the game to be equally "playing the game" you're vastly mistaken. Imagine thinking "picking flowers" is on par with "flying a fighter jet in a dogfight scenario for the army."

    That is the difference between the type of content I want to be playing (anything on-par with heroic raid difficulty or higher, such as Mage Tower) and content the game is trying to entice me to partake in (world quests, islands, NJ dailies, etc).

    The basic combat loop of "spam buttons and things die" isn't in and of itself fun or rewarding, because until you start necessitating people hitting those buttons in proper order to succeed, "skill" doesn't matter in the outcome, and thus makes it seem inconsequential. Ergo, if this is all the game was, I would have dropped it a LONG LONG time ago.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't speak for everyone else, and I've come across plenty of people of the opposite mindset, but my feeling is that I'd raid even without any reward. The novel experience of a first down on a boss is great. The continuing experience of refining your play and upping your damage/parse percentile is great. If they removed gear and we were all under stat templates, I would still get both of those experiences out of raids, and thus, I'd still do them.

    The gear is a means to an end (ensuring I'm on-par with everyone else so I can continue to be competitive). Not the reason or the goal.

    I think most people who full clear mythic would fall into the same boat, as well as a decent chunk of heroic raiders.
    We really can't know either way but I have a feeling if they removed gear from raiding a lot more people would quit raiding than stay doing it, in my opinion. I know I would, raiding is a lot of headache, but when the rewards are nice it's worth it.

    My main goal in game is to progress my character, and gear is my favorite way of doing that (part of the reason I could never get into gw2)

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    My main goal in game is to progress my character, and gear is my favorite way of doing that (part of the reason I could never get into gw2)
    Progressing your character in a never-ending fashion, especially when enemies are keeping pace constantly to the point where your progression gets invalidated every tick of the clock hand, seems idiotic to me. You KNOW it's an artificial hamster wheel designed to feed on those types of people's emotions... so how can you reconcile getting targeted and having that emotional desire taken advantage of?

    I view games designed like that as drug dealers "First hit's free!" I'd hate myself if I ever gave into a scheme like that.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Progressing your character in a never-ending fashion, especially when enemies are keeping pace constantly to the point where your progression gets invalidated every tick of the clock hand, seems idiotic to me. You KNOW it's an artificial hamster wheel designed to feed on those types of people's emotions... so how can you reconcile getting targeted and having that emotional desire taken advantage of?

    I view games designed like that as drug dealers "First hit's free!" I'd hate myself if I ever gave into a scheme like that.
    I've played this game for 15 and raided all of them because I love the gear treadmill.

    I love that there's never an end (till the game shits down) and that I can keep getting better and new things.

    If I wanted anything else I'd go play a single player game with an end point

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'm not changing the definitions here, you are.
    That's exactly what you are trying to do. The definition of a grind is pretty much set in stone for WoW. You are trying to change that in this thread.
    It doesn't matter if you do 5 islands or 50 - you're grinding either way.
    Like here. That's not how it works. Read that link you read again. And no, the AP grind is not required seeing you get to 80 quite easily without "doing repetitive tasks within a game to unlock a particular game item or to build the experience needed to progress smoothly through the game". You can get that with doing stuff you like to do, and don't have to do repetitively to get there. If you don't agree you are straight up saying everything in the game is a grind. And you are not entirely wrong about that, but it's not a grind in the definition of the grind in World of Warcraft. So context is important. Try to stay on that particular context.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Let loot be loot.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    Except they already confirmed there isn't an artifact that you grind AP for, and that there's a weekly valor cap. There will PROBABLY be something akin to these old features but the entirety of the LITTLE they actually showed at Blizzcon was "it's not BFA"

    Did OP actually watch Blizzcon? I doubt it. Or maybe he did and still wanted to just bitch.
    Lol you still trust their word when they've outright lied so many times throughout BfA? Remember when Ion said he wanted people to know an item was an upgrade based on the ilvl, without having to sim it, and then lied and gave us Corruption gear?

    Why would you trust Blizzard and take them at their word after having lied all throughout BfA?

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    That's exactly what you are trying to do. The definition of a grind is pretty much set in stone for WoW. You are trying to change that in this thread.

    Like here. That's not how it works. Read that link you read again. And no, the AP grind is not required seeing you get to 80 quite easily without "doing repetitive tasks within a game to unlock a particular game item or to build the experience needed to progress smoothly through the game". You can get that with doing stuff you like to do, and don't have to do repetitively to get there. If you don't agree you are straight up saying everything in the game is a grind. And you are not entirely wrong about that, but it's not a grind in the definition of the grind in World of Warcraft. So context is important. Try to stay on that particular context.
    I don't agree. I would say leveling through quests isn't a grind, because you only can do those quests once - once you hit 120, you're pretty much always doing content you've already done. So yes, in my opinion nearly all of endgame wow content is grinding

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    Try playing arenas and then come tell us how you don't need essences and shit. Because yes, some people play this game for PvP and before you say old chestnut BS like "this is a pve game" or "nobody cares about arena", we pay exactly the same subscription fee as you do and we deserve to have our voice heard too.
    I think this perfectly highlights a running theme in this thread. People are assuming that their experiences have been the norm and refusing to look at the systems from another point of view.

    Those of you who have been playing throughout BFA almost uninterrupted are of the opinion that you can level the HOA up naturally through just doing what you do. It's easy to dismiss the HOA levels entirely when you're already where you should be without needing to make an intentional effort to level it up. I do see your points of view, and even agree with them, but your experiences don't align with everybody elses.

    The systems look very different if you're a returning player. An RL friend of mine jumped back in this weekend after not playing for about a year. His HOA was level 21 when he logged back in. Even with the quest to immediately bump it up to level 35, he's still got a ways to go before he can use all the traits on the ~iLevel 430 ish gear he's managed to cobble together over the weekend. And a hell of a lot more besides getting hold of all the required essences.

    It looks wildly different if you're a PvPer, who is forced to complete PvE reps, WQ's and such for the essences to be able to compete with players who do have that extra power.

    I usually manage to fit in ~6 or so hours of WoW in a week, and in that time I'd really like to get some raids done. I also frequently have to take time away due to RL matters. So I've got to constantly maximise any AP gains in order to be able to do that due to how little time I get to spend with the game relative to others, as well as find the time for Visions, Daily quests, Rep grinds, Essences and so on. To me, the systems are a constant obligation I need to meet in order to get the enjoyment I want out of the game. Honestly, it's all getting to be a little too much for me to be able to handle.

    So whilst some players have been able to keep their HOA up to date, collect essences and rep and so on through their regular play and do so at a pace that keeps their relative power level equal to the rest of the community at large, others have been left behind.

    While there is a catch up mechanism in place, it requires you to participate in content that is perhaps irrelevent to your in game goals and interests. In that situation it's easy to see why the players it affects would consider it to be a grind - It's an artificial time barrier that's keeping them away from doing the content they actually play the game for. It's fine saying "Just do 3 Islands a week". That may not be something that others have any interest in. It could well be somebody elses entire WoW Weekend just doing Islands.

    I'm not assuming that my points of view match up with others experiences. But I would like you to at least consider the fact that not everyone in the same situtation as you are, and that different players have different in game goals they want to achieve. A little bit of perspective would make this thread a much more constructive discussion.

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