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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    At the time, I was raiding in a Mythic guild and didn't have much of a choice. I would've had to have done the content if I wanted to play the game at the level I felt comfortable.

    Now, you can point out that this was a me issue and not really a Blizzard issue and you'd be correct. But it still doesn't impact my opinion that Suramar was unfun content that I did not want to do again.
    I understand completely but for me it's just that timegating works well for narrative purposes. You can have a smoother story progression with a sense that tension is building and that those efforts take time using this weekly system. If the story isn't resonating with you, then it will be cumbersome though...

  2. #42
    Timegates aren't that big of a trouble for me IF there's a catch up mechanism after.

    Taking the example of BFA, the conquest points system is nice as you can grind the weeks you've been missing if you didnt play at the start of the season. On the contrary, the lucid dream essence grind is terrible as you can't do it faster than the dailies (I mean, you can grind the rares that drop rep tokens but it's so boring ans still timegated), and I feel, especially now in 8.3, that you should be able to do it all in a day if you have the time for it once the first 3 or 4 weeks of the 8.2 were out.

  3. #43
    The problem I have is the whole game has become one big timegate. I remember the fun of getting BIS on my main in old expansions and knowing that I could play alts more since I did not need anything on my main until the next raid came out.

    Now I need to keep playing my main forever it almost seems like because getting BIS is almost impossible. So the grind never really ends.

    I also do not like the M+ system. I preferred the old system that they had in the past where if you wanted to push harder dungeon content you did not get gear just cosmetics like transmog and mounts.

    I guess the game is just no longer one I care to play really. If they ever went back to the older style loot systems I would love it.

  4. #44
    Pandaren Monk Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Tiemgating isnt bad and is almost necessary due to the lengths some people go to get ahead. That said there are good and bad ways of doing it. If you can somewhat disguise it or give reason then it is not as bad. The AQ war effort was basically a disguised timegate, but it made player feels invested in it.

  5. #45
    I'm very split about timegating but leaning towards bad. It:
    A: Keeps me playing.
    B: Makes me don't want to play.

    It keeps me playing because I have to log on next week to finish Y but during the "wait time" I don't really want to play. That's the hard timegating, the soft one, like farming for vision keys is nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    If everything can be done as fast as you want in, say 8.3, how much fun would that really be? Grind one weekend of Visions to get rank 15 of the cloak. Grind one week Mobs for the currency to buy the entrance. Or get rid of the currency completly so you don't have to do content at all.
    So you are done with everything in two days tops.
    Farming Coalescing Visions is a soft timegate:
    1 massive income in invasion by the Black Empire.
    2 major income in other invasions.
    7 mini visions.
    minor income in form of quests.
    mini income in form of chests, loot etc.

    So you almost have a timegate in the form of limited resources but you can still, technically farm the living hell out of you by just killing mobbs. It's more like a ladder, the higher you go, the more exhausted you become and the slower you climb.

    Then there is the type of timegating where you hit a brick wall and Everything just goes from 100 to 0 in a heart beat.

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    You will force everyone who wants to stay in the game to do the same if they want to stay competitive at all. I honestly don't think that that would be good for the game as a whole.

    Or Suramar. All the story quests and unlocks at day one. Nothing to look forward to. Finished in a day or two.
    This is a delemma because maybe I can't play that much, so when I can, I really want to grind something out but I can't because of a freaking timegate. Take reputation as an example. In BFA you gain the majority of rep through world quests. That's fine if I can play every day but if I can only play some two days a week then I can't focus on farming rep to catch up because it's timegated behind world quest resets.

    It is a very difficult line to balance on but the above vision example is better while still having the WQ problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    The carrot on a stick is what keeps MMORPGS alive. They can't do content 24/7 like you are playing a single player game because you play these games waaaaaay more than SP Games.

    I think timegating keeps MMORPGS interesting over a longer period of time. Otherwise you would only have Raids/Mythic+/PVP to do every day and nothing else one week after a content patch dropped which also seems to be not enough for the people who don't like timegating.

    I son't want to insult anyone because i know poeple get really agitaited if you don't agree with them on this topic. Please tel me what kind of relevant content you want if there is nothing else to do after a week other then logging in twice a week to raid/do Mythics or PvP?
    I've highlighted "you would only have" because I think that's the real problem. Either it's a mentality thing where we're stuck in a behaviour that nothing is fun or worth if we don't get a reward. Though if Everything gave rewards you'd grind it out in no time.

    I think timegating is okay when done softly but the brickwall timegating should piss off. It doesn't make me play more, it only makes me take breaks because what I wanted to do can't be done until next week. So the reason to play is gone for the rest of the week.

    I also dissagree with a carrot on a stick. I think it's more of a mentality rather than an actual thing. Then again, having fun might also be a carrot

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    They obviously want different things. Which is fine and to be expected. Even from the only about 300 active user that MMO_C is down to now. Why do yo thing a simple thread with the question "Flying yes or no" gathered 1000+ pages? It is never the case of "can the community help Blizzard go in the right direction" as some qute, naive threads here have asked.

    Any yes / no question will also bet yes, but - n, but - mayve - I don't know - Blizzard needs to die for me to be happy etc etc etc answer.

    Just look at this thread, The usual suspects are not coming in to answer OP's question but to attack ppl who they disagree with as fanbois.
    Your wrong though! I have facts that can show you that I'm right and you're wrong. Like 76.4% of the playerbase do wan't the right thing so, you're outnumbered. Stop being so naive to think it's difficult for Blizz to do the right thing. There's no such thing as different ways, only mine… only the way of the majority, I mean!

    I'm 91% not pulling numbers out of my butt btw.

    You're quite right though. Only way of ever changing that mentality is to be a shining light and to not sink to that level.

    Have you notice how some topics more often than others derail though? Unsure why but I'm guessing that when you have personal opinions things tend to get heated quite fast.
    Last edited by Zephire; 2020-02-21 at 08:42 AM.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I understand completely but for me it's just that timegating works well for narrative purposes. You can have a smoother story progression with a sense that tension is building and that those efforts take time using this weekly system. If the story isn't resonating with you, then it will be cumbersome though...
    It wasn't the story that didn't resonate with me. It was just...the quests themselves. There was just too much. ._.

    I wouldn't have minded as much if all of Suramar's rewards remained 100% optional; but we both know that Blizzard isn't about to add a 100+-quest chain into the game and not tie it into some system which compels players to complete the content.

  7. #47
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    if they timegate stuff, people complain about it and accuse Blizzard of timegating so they can keep subs going.

    if they don't timegate stuff, people complain about it and accuse Blizzard of not having enough content for them to do.

    Blizzard cannot win.
    Pretty much on the mark.

    The combination of timegates and a lot of RNG is pretty poisonous though. Gated content is easier to deal with if you know what's involved and what the reward will eventually be. It's a hard thing to get right. Gated rewards should feel good when you get them. Being relieved that it's over is too much.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    There really isn't much *meaningful* timegating in 8.3.

    You could assemble a team of dedicated players and plow high m+ keys of 14 or higher for tons of hours and get everyone geared up with 465 gear. Everything else is kinda secondary. Even just plowing m+11s for 460 gear drops is gonna get you way ahead of 99% of everyone else.

    Almost forgot your free 475 item from professions like engineering which gives 475 hat.
    maybe im missing something because i didn't play for most of the bfa but how exactly is engi hat free? especially the 475 one? im literally spending thousands of gold right now to get enough expulsom just to be able to get the 1st one 445ilvl and i stil don't have it
    Last edited by Finear; 2020-02-21 at 09:06 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Is see so many complains in the forums (only forums, never ingame) about timegates. But i don't really get why.

    Set asside the quality of the content for the sake of discussion.

    If everything can be done as fast as you want in, say 8.3, how much fun would that really be? Grind one weekend of Visions to get rank 15 of the cloak. Grind one week Mobs for the currency to buy the entrance. Or get rid of the currency completly so you don't have to do content at all.
    So you are done with everything in two days tops.

    You will force everyone who wants to stay in the game to do the same if they want to stay competitive at all. I honestly don't think that that would be good for the game as a whole.

    Or Suramar. All the story quests and unlocks at day one. Nothing to look forward to. Finished in a day or two.

    The carrot on a stick is what keeps MMORPGS alive. They can't do content 24/7 like you are playing a single player game because you play these games waaaaaay more than SP Games.

    I think timegating keeps MMORPGS interesting over a longer period of time. Otherwise you would only have Raids/Mythic+/PVP to do every day and nothing else one week after a content patch dropped which also seems to be not enough for the people who don't like timegating.

    I son't want to insult anyone because i know poeple get really agitaited if you don't agree with them on this topic. Please tel me what kind of relevant content you want if there is nothing else to do after a week other then logging in twice a week to raid/do Mythics or PvP?
    Time-gating wouldn't be bad, if one content/reward wouldn't be time-gated behind other one. I.e., let's say, Suramar lore is time-gated behind rep grind. Ok. Nothing bad. I can do it with slow pace instead of rushing. But there are other things, that are time-gated behind Suramar rep grind. Like Class Hall set piece, Pathfinder achievement, etc. I.e. it's actually standard "mandatory vs optional" problem. If I want to do X and I have to do Y to unlock X, then time-gating Y is extremely bad. Also, time gating is alt-unfriendly. Time-gating wouldn't be so bad, if it would be account-wide. When it's not, it really looks like artificial slowing us down.

    Also. It really looks like greedy cash-grab tactic. May be time-gating wouldn't look so bad, if this game wouldn't have sub fee.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2020-02-21 at 09:13 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    This isn't even remotely true. It's because the content Blizzard currently designs has no legs. It has no staying power. It's low effort garbage. This is the only reason they time-gate things. Because they know people won't stick around anymore.
    They have literally been time gating stuff in WoW since 2004. What the hell are you talking about acting like it's a recent thing? LOL

  11. #51
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    I don't mind the timegates that are there to set the pace of the front runners while not limiting the pace the rest. As Dakara wrote earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    For example, in PvP, every 500 Conquest you get a reward, which is capped at once per week... however, it accumulates, so if you miss a week, you can make it up the next week and grind out both rewards.
    That also means I don't mind the weekly unlocked quests. However, they annoy me when there is not enough unlocked each week. 1 quest each week on the Broken Shore was just bad game design.

    I guess I really just want the ability to farm myself back to the rest of the people and I can't see any gameplay reason why that should not be the norm. It will probably even result in the same amount of actual game time, just focused up instead of spread out over longer.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I'm very split about timegating but leaning towards bad. It:
    A: Keeps me playing.
    B: Makes me don't want to play.

    It keeps me playing because I have to log on next week to finish Y but during the "wait time" I don't really want to play. That's the hard timegating, the soft one, like farming for vision keys is nice.

    Farming Coalescing Visions is a soft timegate:
    1 massive income in invasion by the Black Empire.
    2 major income in other invasions.
    7 mini visions.
    minor income in form of quests.
    mini income in form of chests, loot etc.

    So you almost have a timegate in the form of limited resources but you can still, technically farm the living hell out of you by just killing mobbs. It's more like a ladder, the higher you go, the more exhausted you become and the slower you climb.

    Then there is the type of timegating where you hit a brick wall and Everything just goes from 100 to 0 in a heart beat.
    It's funny that you use that particular example, because in this case, the soft timegating basically informs the hard one.

    Cloak upgrades being capped would be a hard timegate, naturally. But if that timegate wasn't there, then the soft one would become problematic. People would see that they could technically farm vessels and therefore cloak upgrades in an unlimited fashion - and therefore feel that they need to do so asap. Because that's how a lot of players approach these things. That's why people complain about the AP grind so much. Guilds would require their members to get to cloak lvl X on week one or be benched, etc.

    As someone who never really gave into the farming pressure since I don't have the time to hardcore raid anymore, I personally can live with this sort of time-gating. Though I would like more vessels available to do more visions when I do have the time.

  13. #53
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    I think a healthy balance is needed. IMO it's fine to have a patch play out at pace with various story or power gates weekly.

    IMO, Story-wise the best would be around a month for decent sized content patch. Power-wise it's OK that you don't peak for 2 months as long as you unlock let's say 70% in first month. Suramar is a great example where story pacing, IMO, was really good. It was huge and good questine and it made sense why it took all that time.

    I do think that once patch is over, gates should be cut to a minimum, maybe even just one reset to catch up. TBH it would not make me cry myself to sleep if all essences introduced in previous patches could be attained at rank 3 in one reset or 2 resets top without going crazy grinding.

    Honestly, I think essenses should be account-wide too half-way. As in rank 2 unlocked. So that these alts still have something to work towards, but not having to redo the whole bloody thing from scratch.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by alduron View Post
    The only timegate I had a real problem with was the original battle for hyjal one in tbc, which required 25 kael and 25 vashj kills, at a minimum.
    Wait... you personally did not need to kill Vashj 25 times. Everyone in the Raid had to kill either 1 time. in an 25 (!!) man Raid

  15. #55
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Wait... you personally did not need to kill Vashj 25 times. Everyone in the Raid had to kill either 1 time. in an 25 (!!) man Raid
    True dat, but as a guy who was raiding back then, I am sure glad this shit is no longer a thing.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    True dat, but as a guy who was raiding back then, I am sure glad this shit is no longer a thing.
    Well yeah. Attunements where fun at first but they should have opened it up after BT was opened.
    I remember having to run the old raids every week just to get the new recruits attuned.

    But i still think they are kinda fun. Immersion and stuff.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshingo View Post
    This is the laziest strawman imaginable.

    ~~~~~~~

    Yes, timegates are bad.
    Calls someone lazy, then proceeds to make the laziest contribution to the topic yet....

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    FFXIV has virtually zero timegating outside of gear and some things and its still flourishing.


    Why?

    Because the rest of the game is compelling enough to where once you get BiS you can enjoy the fruits of your labor because there's a lot of vanity stuff to do.



    WoW suffers when there's no timegating because they devote very little of the game to vanity, it makes sense why they have to timegate everything, because if that weren't the case people would quit or get bored, I agree with this.



    The solution is just to make the rest of the non-gear ladder oriented parts of the game fun to do.
    I have to agree with this one.

    When I have my BiS list in final, I have tons to do alone with crafting and housing. In wow, I just roll, yeah another twink probably
    (but you probably have to differentiate between them a little because you can do everything on one character)

    Currently doing my third cloak questline in wow, can't bear too see those scenarios again..


    And before someone jumps at me, I'm playing both games actively.

  19. #59
    yes it really bad. Nothing is Worse then when you really into playing something and you hit a hard limit of "now wait 1 week" it really kills your drive and the fun of it.

  20. #60
    When its stuff like the legendary cloak being restricting to one rank per week, I don't think its bad.. If you could just turbo nerd it from rank 1-15, then people would bitch that feel "forced" to grind coalescing visions day out and day in to reach rank 15 for when the raid opened.

    But too much timegating is bad definitely.

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