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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Salystra View Post
    The problem with uniqueness is that some buffs as others have now said above is some are very impactful on your chance to succeed (spell power/spell damage/physical damage being the outliers)

    I would be more an advocate for uniqueness of a class BUT not at the expense of bringing a class just to fill a gap and that's the hardest part to get right.
    How about a multiplier? Get rid of all buffs. U doing party? 5% HP heal damage. Raid? 10%. For each full group added on, add 5%.

    Or maybe just get rid of all buffs, give hero to every dps spec and every healer gets battle Rez.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  2. #42
    Are people trying to homogenize what little class uniqueness is left in the interest of their min maxing? Yes? Oh ok.
    change can't wait.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    That one would be a stronger defensive buff than fortitude honestly. Think about all the fights that have unavoidable AoE damage.

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    12 classes, 5 spots. You're going to have some be preferred over others no matter what.

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    Too bad multistrike is gone or I would've given that to hunters. Bring back multistrike.
    No. Don't bring back crit but with extra steps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Are people trying to homogenize what little class uniqueness is left in the interest of their min maxing? Yes? Oh ok.
    No. People are sick of bringing shit people because they buff the rest. It's even worse when they can't even find those shit people because it's all hunters that night.

    Homogenize the buffs or get rid of them. Stop punishing casuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Are people trying to homogenize what little class uniqueness is left in the interest of their min maxing? Yes? Oh ok.
    It's about as unique as "every raid has a brewmaster and a havoc demon hunter, period". Gotta love suffocating roster variety by having "mandatory classes" as if melee and tank camps didn't already have multiple specs / classes that are unwanted and perma benched.

  5. #45
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    So, assuming we want to go back to a system of "Bring the Player, Not the Class" where classes have real value but you're not pigeonholed into, say, needing a demon hunter and a monk for your raid group, we probably want to have several different rules in place to try and prevent the system from getting out of hand. I propose the following:
    1) There needs to be at least six class buffs; enough so that every buff can appear on two different classes.
    2) The class buffs need to focus on effects that directly contribute to survivability and throughput (DPS/Healing).
    3) To avoid classes being in direct competition with each other, buffs should not appear on classes of the same "type". For example, having two cloth DPS classes share the Stamina Buff isn't ideal because it invites direct comparisons between those classes.

    So with that in mind, here's a list of suggested buffs:
    -- Armor
    -- Attack Power
    -- Critical Strike Chance
    -- Critical Strike Damage
    -- Haste
    -- Resource Regeneration (This buff would improve the rate at which characters recover a class resource; whatever Memory of Lucid Dreams affects in BFA.)
    -- Spell Power
    -- Stamina
    -- Versatility

    With this in mind, let's assign these buffs to classes. Some of them are obvious, based on existing options:
    -- Mage (Spell Power; Arcane Intellect)
    -- Priest (Stamina; Power Word: Fortitude)
    -- Warrior (Attack Power; Battle Shout)

    Now, to expand the list. Anything marked with an asterisk (*) is a new ability that I felt like naming.
    -- Death Knight (Stamina; Unholy Resolve*)
    -- Demon Hunter (Attack Power; Cry Havoc*)
    -- Druid (Versatility; Mark of the Wild)
    -- Monks (Monks have a fighting style option that gives them their choice of Haste [Tiger], Spell Power [Serpent], Stamina [Ox], or Resource Regeneration [Crane])
    -- Paladin (Paladins would have 3 auras that gave them their choice of Armor [Devotion Aura], Critical Strike Damage [Retribution Aura], or Resource Regeneration [Concentration Aura]. Paladins can swap auras at will, but only one can be active at a time.)
    -- Rogue (Critical Strike Damage; Hinder Foe*)
    -- Shaman (Shamans would have 3 water totems that gave them their choice of Critical Strike Chance, Spell Power, or Versatility. Shamans can swap between these totems at will, but only one can be active at a time.)
    -- Warlock (A Warlock's demon would provide a buff that's chosen by the warlock: Armor, Critical Strike Chance, or Haste. Warlocks can swap between these demonic buffs at will, but only one can be active at a time.)

    With this list, every buff is accounted for at least twice.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Considering that each class bought at least 2 buffs/debuffs, and a large number bought 3..

    And that there was 5 debuffs and 8 buffs...

    Then if you didn't have all the buffs AND debuffs covered, that was a failure on part of the raid leader. You could get them all covered in as few as 8 different classes/specs. Not to mention various prof items that would provide a somewhat weaker version of the buff.

    Now there would 7 buffs (No more Multistrike, so Stamina, Spellpower, Attack power, Crit, Haste, Versa, Stats). Could also just have 2 debuffs instead of 5 (Phys and Magic vulnerability).

    As it stands atm, 3 buffs, each coming from a specific class, and 2 debuffs, each ALSO coming from a specific class isn't much better, and is overall significantly worse imo - Instead of being able to mix/match various classes and specs to get your buffs/debuffs covered, you HAVE to have 1 monk, 1 DH, 1 Mage, 1 Priest, and 1 warrior in EVERY single raid.
    This was in WoD, iirc, where each Class only had one and some of them repeated, and we were still in a situation where we sometimes lacked a debuff or buff and the difference in difficulty was enormous.

    In Legion where they got rid of them completely had some of the most balanced raid encounters and really emphasised the "bring the player not the class" philosophy.

  7. #47
    I'm for get rid of raid/party buffs/debuffs for "bring player not the class"!

  8. #48
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    This was in WoD, iirc, where each Class only had one and some of them repeated, and we were still in a situation where we sometimes lacked a debuff or buff and the difference in difficulty was enormous.

    In Legion where they got rid of them completely had some of the most balanced raid encounters and really emphasised the "bring the player not the class" philosophy.
    Each class had at least 2 between Buffs and Debuffs, not a single class had only 1 buff or debuff. Even if a spec had only 1 buff, they also had a debuff available to them as well Some classes/specs (All 3 warlock specs for instance) had 3 buffs/debuff combinations.

    It's also STILL "Bring the class as long as the player is good". There are still sizable damage differences between classes, not even mentioning intra-class DPS differences. Especially acute in M+, though it likely will always be so since there are only 5 slots available among 35 different specs.

    In my eyes, it should either be NO buffs/debuffs available at all (Like Legion), or double up on WoD and give everybody 3-4 buffs/debuffs.
    Last edited by Raugnaut; 2020-02-29 at 06:02 PM.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  9. #49
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    Something id like to see as a MM hunter is just a unique lust spell for them. Back in WoD you could at least pick a bonus stat aura to provide withe Lone Wolf, kinda sucks that you are just pigeon holed into the defensive ability now.

  10. #50
    They should get rid of auto buffs and give every class the old druid ability Symbiosis, and let the chips fall where they may.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Are people trying to homogenize what little class uniqueness is left in the interest of their min maxing? Yes? Oh ok.
    Maybe it's just me, but those two effects just feel artificial.

    Take the DH debuff for example, we previously did have a similiar effect from Warlock, Curse of Elements / Shadows.
    Warlocks using curses to weaken their opponents mades sense, while it's a long shot from the Vanilla mechanic and variety of curses that Warlocks had, it still fit the overall class fantasy.

    Similiar to the Monk debuff, we previously had debuffs like Sunder Armor or Expose Armor.
    They both did have their place within a classes fantasy.

    The DH and Monk debuff are just straight out of nowhere and simply feel slapped onto the classes so that each class has a unique debuff, despite the fact that these effects quite clearly belonged to other classes previously.
    They feel more like a raid slot insurance than something that's part of the class identity.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Such powerful debuffs need to be given to 2 classes atleast.

    Just dh with magic debuff for example is just stupid, i mean give it to dk and lock aswell, it was their debuff to begin with.
    DH and monk received these because their utility is totally scant. Darkness was completely unreliable, and monk utility is even more pitiful.

    The problem with DK is they took their aoe stun and gorefiends for no reason whatsoever. They then nerfed the amount of ranged damage they could do to make up for their lack of mobility.

    Given all that pruning, DK should most definitely gain the 5% magic damage debuff. DK gets pull and st stun talent, DH and monk get aoe stun and talented ST CC.

    But the spec in the most desperate need of utility by far is feral druid. They need to be given back in form brez AND leader of the pack as a 5% crit buff with procced %hp heals. A mirror for that could be monk or hunter (forget the 5% physical damage debuff, it's too niche).

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    It isn’t required though. You don’t have to have it to kill a boss. It’s a benefit.
    I dare you to find a first kill on anything past 3/12M that was not done without both a monk and a dh. When talking about whether or not something is required we should understand if the conversation is theoretical or practical. This is the same thing as when people were saying you did not have to have at least 2 warlocks on G'huun when 100% of the kills had at least two and the vast majority had more.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I dare you to find a first kill on anything past 3/12M that was not done without both a monk and a dh. When talking about whether or not something is required we should understand if the conversation is theoretical or practical. This is the same thing as when people were saying you did not have to have at least 2 warlocks on G'huun when 100% of the kills had at least two and the vast majority had more.
    lol so in your mind it’s required if the first kill has it? Come on now. You know blizzard does not design these fights for the first guilds clearing them. Anything can be killed without having every single buff or debuff. Of course people will take something if it can help. That is the point. That’s how it should be. You aren’t forced to do it though, but it makes you feel better when you can.

    I remember how nice it was in WotLK when we’d have someone with replenishment show up. It sucked without it, but damn it felt awesome when it was there. If everyone could bring it then it may as well not even exist and there goes yet another RPG element. This is the problem.

  15. #55
    Have MoP buffs where some class buffs overlapped so you didn't necessarily need every class/spec. Can just have the professions give a weaker version of it if you don't have the buff naturally.

  16. #56
    They could just stop worrying about all classes being balanced since it makes the game less fun overall and actually give people real build choice instead of here are 3 talent points and everyone is going to choose the best one always.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    lol so in your mind it’s required if the first kill has it? Come on now. You know blizzard does not design these fights for the first guilds clearing them. Anything can be killed without having every single buff or debuff. Of course people will take something if it can help. That is the point. That’s how it should be. You aren’t forced to do it though, but it makes you feel better when you can.
    No, you don't understand. Not the first world kill, any raid's first kill. Go ahead and link a raid that is past 3/12M and does not have both a dh and a monk. It's possible there are a few ... I am almost certain you won't find any raids progressed 8/12 or better without both though. The reason I said first kill is that once you have something on farm you have a lot more leeway and it's much more feasible to pass on the free damage if you just happen to have your dh out sick or something.

    So you can continue to say a dh and monk aren't required, but it's not very compelling when nobody is doing it. Because why would you? 5% physical and 5% magical damage debuffs are enormous in a raid setting? I could be total shit at dh and still provide more value for my raid than if I played a class I was great at if it was the difference between the raid having a dh and not having a dh.

    Lastly, honest question ... do you really think Blizzard has tuned the fights for not having both debuffs? To me it seems like that should be a rhetorical question but I think you may really believe that is the case.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Every class should have a single unique buff.

    DK - vers
    DH - 5% magic debuff
    Druid - avoidance
    Hunter - speed
    mage - spell power
    monk - 5% physical debuff
    paladin - mastery
    priest - stamina
    rogue - crit
    shaman - haste
    warlock - leech
    warrior - attack power
    I don't like that.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    It isn’t required though. You don’t have to have it to kill a boss. It’s a benefit.
    This is such a stupid argument. 5% damage for each raid member? Yeah that's what every sane person would call pretty mandatory.

    That's like saying, "well, you don't have to bring a flask or eat any food". Blah blah blah it's "technically" true () but you'd be stupid not to do it because it's only going to make things harder for your raid. Rather than calling it a benefit, it's more like not having it is a massive hindrance. Any raid group with a brain is going to try to bring it.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Are people trying to homogenize what little class uniqueness is left in the interest of their min maxing? Yes? Oh ok.
    I think people want uniqueness left in classes but not with boring mandatory stuff like 5% flat damage increases. Things like a DK's grip , Monks ring of peace or Priests Mind control can all be very interesting and very useful in fights while been unique but aren't completely game breaking like a flat 5% damage increase is. And they're also a lot more interesting imo

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