Dh and Monk debuff overhaul

[Dioporco]

The issue is that blizzard cannot balance classes right now and when they add " utility " some classes ( DH ) became mandatory.


If blizzard decide to make let's say, Elemental Shaman bring a debuff that increase Spell Critical DMG, you can bet you ass they will start to appears in raid.


I would bring back some utility buff/debuffs from TBC for specific spec and other from MoP/WoD

[Ezyah]

Remove them so instead of bringing a monk u can stack a 6th fire mage

[Salystra]

Archaic my balls.


TBC class-spec specific debuffs and buffs were the best thing ever they added

We had Skull Banner not so long ago and was a nice buff.



They could just gather all the " buff debuff " they added in TBC and MOP and come up again with something interesting.

TBC debuff/buffs have a place but it is archaic as in its moved on, there should be uniqueness of a class BUT that uniqueness shouldn't be at the expense of major raid detriment by not having it, THATS the issue and that is what is archaic in nature.

In TBC you didn't bring a shaman you were quite frankly screwed on progress until point of overgearing for example and now you don't bring one that brings +magic +physical your whole raid suffers, its the same issue and they haven't learnt.


If you want some uniqueness you have to look at it from the point of multi across classes ie Melee put their own physical up, Casters put theirs etc BUT at that point why bother..... just buff the classes by x value...

Lust is well covered by hunter/drums/sham/mage but even with 3 classes people resort to the 4th.

Its a minefield and im rambling.

[Quaade]

Just bring us back to WoD buffs and debuffs - Everybody brings at least 1 buff or debuff, some ppl bring 2, and a few bring 3.

That would be horrible. I remember how horrible raids were back then because if you lacked a buff/debuff then the raid was harder than it should be and appropriately easy when you had them.

[G3 Ghost]

I'd want to see it tied to spells again (CoE for locks, totems for shimmies, etc...).

Edit: And bring back the specific judgements for paladins.

[Vilendor]

Every class should have a single unique buff.

DK - vers
DH - 5% magic debuff
Druid - avoidance
Hunter - speed
mage - spell power
monk - 5% physical debuff
paladin - mastery
priest - stamina
rogue - crit
shaman - haste
warlock - leech
warrior - attack power

When you think feral druids can't be more useless and unwanted someone always proves you wrong.

[cparle87]

They aren't they are a archaic remnant of TBC style debuffs that were brought back in to try to make them more widely played or something..... (usual reason I cant see it being this main reason though)

Damage should not be reliant wholely on whether you have certain classes within the raid setup especially in regards to on target 100% uptime debuffs.

Ugh. Please don't bring me back to the days of being the mangle slave if we didn't have an arms warrior.

[Raugnaut]

That would be horrible. I remember how horrible raids were back then because if you lacked a buff/debuff then the raid was harder than it should be and appropriately easy when you had them.

Considering that each class bought at least 2 buffs/debuffs, and a large number bought 3..

And that there was 5 debuffs and 8 buffs...

Then if you didn't have all the buffs AND debuffs covered, that was a failure on part of the raid leader. You could get them all covered in as few as 8 different classes/specs. Not to mention various prof items that would provide a somewhat weaker version of the buff.

Now there would 7 buffs (No more Multistrike, so Stamina, Spellpower, Attack power, Crit, Haste, Versa, Stats). Could also just have 2 debuffs instead of 5 (Phys and Magic vulnerability).

As it stands atm, 3 buffs, each coming from a specific class, and 2 debuffs, each ALSO coming from a specific class isn't much better, and is overall significantly worse imo - Instead of being able to mix/match various classes and specs to get your buffs/debuffs covered, you HAVE to have 1 monk, 1 DH, 1 Mage, 1 Priest, and 1 warrior in EVERY single raid.

[Smeeh]

Every class should have a single unique buff.

DK - vers
DH - 5% magic debuff
Druid - avoidance
Hunter - speed
mage - spell power
monk - 5% physical debuff
paladin - mastery
priest - stamina
rogue - crit
shaman - haste
warlock - leech
warrior - attack power

"We can bring 3 dps to this m+, lets get speed, avoidance and leech" said no one ever.

[Dioporco]

"We can bring 3 dps to this m+, lets get speed, avoidance and leech" said no one ever.

Hunter - Speed


Rogue - Crit



Ye because Rogues need another mandatory utility buffs

[Hellobolis]

i just don't get why they limited them to 1 class only.

theres 3 classes with bloodlust, 3 with combat ress. but somehow these buffs are 1 each.

and a second class that has summons wouldn't hurt either.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Buffs that are always active and change nothing in the way you play should just be gone. I've hated nothing more in this expansion than crafting scrolls in m+, the process alone takes an hour per week. It was really odd to have some classes also have these buffs where you had to have one of them in a mythic raiding group while other classes don't have em.

I much prefer class utility like heroism, warrior shouts and healthstones (i know they aren't equal) where you choose when you use them. Rather than having 3 different types of dps potions i'd just remove them all, then give demon hunters the ability to give the group demon testicles that you can pop once in a fight to gain 15% crit buff for 10 seconds or something. It's silly that a demon hunter does 5% of your damage passively. On top of that demon hunters always have the 5% amp themselves, meaning to balance them for raiding they have 5% more chaos damage solo. Same with windwalkers (quite a funny comparison on how both classes were balanced i admit).

There's so many things that could be done instead of just having a monk do 5% of your damage, or a warrior 10%. I'm supposed to be happy to see a warrior or monk in my group like this? Or are they supposed to be happy for helping by doing absolutely nothing.

[exochaft]

It would be nice to have the relevant buffs in M+ but I don't think this would be necessary.

I'd be a fan of bringing back the old CM model where you were automatically buffed with the standard raid buffs when the key started. If the only reason you're being brought to a M+ is because of a buff/debuff (or raid for that matter), there's something wrong with class balance.

In terms of debuffs? Maybe DH/monks could have an abilities to create the vulnerability temporarily, on a 3min CD. Purely as a passive, not a fan as they are implemented now.

[Jastall]

These buffs are ridiculous, saying that as a Warrior main.

Either expand them to more classes or get rid of them. Class uniqueness coming from utility is fine and good (now if only said utility was somewhat balanced across classes...). Coming from arbitrarily deciding your raid needs a Priest, a Warrior, a Monk, a DH and a Mage to be at its best efficiency is dumb. Hobbling your group in M+ because you have 3 physical damage dealers and no Monks is silly.

There isn't even a rhyme or reason to their distribution. Mages already have boatloads of unique utility, and then on top of that a massive 10% int buff. DHs are a very desirable class as it is, let's make them even more mandatory now. Meanwhile everyone /laugh at the Shaman who can't buff shit despite being, ya know, a shaman, but at least he self-rez every 30 minutes and his lust has been distributed among 3 classes.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

They are fine as is, they just need to give something to every class.

I have no idea what they were thinking adding spells like this to a class like Demon Hunter, who already has insane utility.

[Alvito]

I honestly don't think buffs/debuffs were needed. Of all the things to unprune, I far rather have useful utilities than buffs with guaranteed uptime.

Adding them back into the game in such a limited way was beyond stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Every class should have a single unique buff.

DK - vers
DH - 5% magic debuff
Druid - avoidance
Hunter - speed
mage - spell power
monk - 5% physical debuff
paladin - mastery
priest - stamina
rogue - crit
shaman - haste
warlock - leech
warrior - attack power

That was their thinking at first, until they realized how insanely stupid it would be to do that.

[Jamie081]

If they remove the debuffs they can take away Rogue AOE stealth and their magic immunity as well. Rogues aren't special and should be treated the same.

[docterfreeze]

When you think feral druids can't be more useless and unwanted someone always proves you wrong.

That one would be a stronger defensive buff than fortitude honestly. Think about all the fights that have unavoidable AoE damage.

- - - Updated - - -

"We can bring 3 dps to this m+, lets get speed, avoidance and leech" said no one ever.

12 classes, 5 spots. You're going to have some be preferred over others no matter what.

- - - Updated - - -

Hunter - Speed


Rogue - Crit



Ye because Rogues need another mandatory utility buffs

Too bad multistrike is gone or I would've given that to hunters. Bring back multistrike.

[Rhozul]

Personally, if it were me I'd take both away from DH and Monks, merge them into a single debuff, and give it to every tank.

For reference, every tank spec in the game has a PvP talent that causes their taunt to put a debuff on an enemy that increases their damage taken by 1% per unique foe attacking that target, up to a maximum of 5%. I would take that ability out of the PvP talent lists and use it as a replacement for monk / DH debuffs. It's an essential debuff that can make or break a comp and it's pretty neat for taunting to have a purpose outside of tank swapping.

[munkeyinorbit]

The problem with uniqueness is that some buffs as others have now said above is some are very impactful on your chance to succeed (spell power/spell damage/physical damage being the outliers)

I would be more an advocate for uniqueness of a class BUT not at the expense of bringing a class just to fill a gap and that's the hardest part to get right.

How about a multiplier? Get rid of all buffs. U doing party? 5% HP heal damage. Raid? 10%. For each full group added on, add 5%.

Or maybe just get rid of all buffs, give hero to every dps spec and every healer gets battle Rez.