Page 13 of 13 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
  1. #241
    I love slyvanas prior to bfa, i think she was definitely evil/malicious but less of a villain with her loyalty to the horde, actions against garrosh. She has a unique mindset a video game can have where things like death don't matter if you can convert them to your side as a result. I think even though its hugely flawed, if she actually wanted to eliminate the alliance for a true horde azeroth, its a conquerors mindset, but still fairly justifiable. But the context that shes been getting people killed for some master we know nothing about, that everything she has done has the asterisk on it. Everything from bfa makes slyvanas either seem like a puppet or a selfish bitch, and it makes slyvanas extremely unlikable. Its also not helpful that blizzard gives her thought processes in the book, then has extreme actions in the game, to then throw out the motivations in the finally having her join the jailor a character they won't give context for till a year after the drop.

    You can see the thought process of if the horde and alliance will always fight and you want to end it here and now, crushing the night elves, killing malfurion, and truly ending the war before it began could be a strategy. And slyvanas is always a character that can be very extreme and irrational in moments of weakness/panic/things not going to plan, so you could see slyvanas thinking burning the tree and razing a city as the next best thing in her mind. Im not saying this is what a good person would do, but a malicious character that believes the ends justifies the means and is truly wanting the horde to endure. There are plenty of historical characters who are heroes to their country but pretty villainous to those on the receiving end, its not some unthinkable horror. But when they reveal that slyvanas doesnt care for the horde, doesn't care for the war, actually wanted as many people to die as possible (then why would you try to end the war in one sweep with malfurion, it just doesn't make sense), you are just contradicting the character.

    Im not saying slyvanas is a good person or stable, and she definitely is a villain in the perspective of the alliance. At least from a horde point of view prior to bfa, you can justify her as a ends justifies the mean brutal conquerer, who has a warped perception of live and death unique to her, that wanted the horde and the forsaken to succeed, But with the context of bfa, it seems slyvanas is a massive bait to everyone, where blizzard is trying to portray her as evil as possible, with some revelation at the end that makes her understandable or acceptable as a character progression (not that her actions are acceptable). But I really think that the amount of time it takes for the audience to see this pay off is way too long, 4/5 years of this weird character acceleration for a plot twist that seems smarter than it actually is something i hope they never do again, at most it should be a 1 expansion thing, or a 2 parter with there is a further progression of a character after a settled character arc. But in addition the contradictions of character DURING bfa, the acceleration of comcial evil slyvanas goes through, and the variety of sources of slyvanas info to get this characters recent arc is just bad writing and presentation, not just an unlikable character.

    Hopefully they never do something like this again to a character. This was a character who fans had connection to and with the lore path they took, its basically impossible to justify that with the bfa actions because they the story is so confusing, plot-twisty, and has over use of misinformation/lack of full picture, that it makes everything seem stupid for 2 expansions. It feels bad, and if slyvanas is just a villain to be killed, at least with that you can be like well that if what they made her so at least that part makes sense. But if shes a character that will continue to have influence, as a harbinger into the cosmic part of wow, they better give a lot of explanation, slyvanas' honest opinions/thoughts/feelings on what shes done and who she's done it to, and have a convincing ends justify the means explanation to make any hope for her, or else the story will greatly suffer from an unlikable,poorly written, anger inducing character existing.
    Last edited by goldentforce; 2020-02-27 at 06:24 AM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by goldentforce View Post
    I love slyvanas prior to bfa, i think she was definitely evil/malicious but less of a villain with her loyalty to the horde, actions against garrosh. She has a unique mindset a video game can have where things like death don't matter if you can convert them to your side as a result. I think even though its hugely flawed, if she actually wanted to eliminate the alliance for a true horde azeroth, its a conquerors mindset, but still fairly justifiable. But the context that shes been getting people killed for some master we know nothing about, that everything she has done has the asterisk on it. Everything from bfa makes slyvanas either seem like a puppet or a selfish bitch, and it makes slyvanas extremely unlikable. Its also not helpful that blizzard gives her thought processes in the book, then has extreme actions in the game, to then throw out the motivations in the finally having her join the jailor a character they won't give context for till a year after the drop.

    You can see the thought process of if the horde and alliance will always fight and you want to end it here and now, crushing the night elves, killing malfurion, and truly ending the war before it began could be a strategy. And slyvanas is always a character that can be very extreme and irrational in moments of weakness/panic/things not going to plan, so you could see slyvanas thinking burning the tree and razing a city as the next best thing in her mind. Im not saying this is what a good person would do, but a malicious character that believes the ends justifies the means and is truly wanting the horde to endure. There are plenty of historical characters who are heroes to their country but pretty villainous to those on the receiving end, its not some unthinkable horror. But when they reveal that slyvanas doesnt care for the horde, doesn't care for the war, actually wanted as many people to die as possible (then why would you try to end the war in one sweep with malfurion, it just doesn't make sense), you are just contradicting the character.

    Im not saying slyvanas is a good person or stable, and she definitely is a villain in the perspective of the alliance. At least from a horde point of view prior to bfa, you can justify her as a ends justifies the mean brutal conquerer, who has a warped perception of live and death unique to her, that wanted the horde and the forsaken to succeed, But with the context of bfa, it seems slyvanas is a massive bait to everyone, where blizzard is trying to portray her as evil as possible, with some revelation at the end that makes her understandable or acceptable as a character progression (not that her actions are acceptable). But I really think that the amount of time it takes for the audience to see this pay off is way too long, 4/5 years of this weird character acceleration for a plot twist that seems smarter than it actually is something i hope they never do again, at most it should be a 1 expansion thing, or a 2 parter with there is a further progression of a character after a settled character arc. But in addition the contradictions of character DURING bfa, the acceleration of comcial evil slyvanas goes through, and the variety of sources of slyvanas info to get this characters recent arc is just bad writing and presentation, not just an unlikable character.

    Hopefully they never do something like this again to a character. This was a character who fans had connection to and with the lore path they took, its basically impossible to justify that with the bfa actions because they the story is so confusing, plot-twisty, and has over use of misinformation/lack of full picture, that it makes everything seem stupid for 2 expansions. It feels bad, and if slyvanas is just a villain to be killed, at least with that you can be like well that if what they made her so at least that part makes sense. But if shes a character that will continue to have influence, as a harbinger into the cosmic part of wow, they better give a lot of explanation, slyvanas' honest opinions/thoughts/feelings on what shes done and who she's done it to, and have a convincing ends justify the means explanation to make any hope for her, or else the story will greatly suffer from an unlikable,poorly written, anger inducing character existing.
    Because she knew Saurfang would not go all the way in. She knew he will stop when he realizes (with his tiny brain) that this war will never be as “honorable” as she convinced him. She even openly mocked him with “it will be a great honor” and “glory” to kill Malf who was biggest WoW hippie before BfA and openly worked with the Horde and in general was a very “neutral” character. Killing someone like him, after a backstab and while he is basically lying on the ground with an axe in his back might be practical... but thats nowhere near glorious or honorable. She on purpose made him doubt himself so he would hesitate and give her an excuse to burn the Tree and feed the Jailer. She would have done it anyway but she wanted to puppeteer the Horde some more...

    - - - Updated - - -

    --- snip ---
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-02-27 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Removed Forbidden Topic

  3. #243
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Having a beer with dad'hardt
    Posts
    26,036
    I don't think there's a more perfect meme to summarise the sylvanas fanbase right now.

    --- snip ---
    Last edited by Trassk; 2020-02-27 at 04:18 PM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because she knew Saurfang would not go all the way in. She knew he will stop when he realizes (with his tiny brain) that this war will never be as “honorable” as she convinced him. She even openly mocked him with “it will be a great honor” and “glory” to kill Malf who was biggest WoW hippie before BfA and openly worked with the Horde and in general was a very “neutral” character. Killing someone like him, after a backstab and while he is basically lying on the ground with an axe in his back might be practical... but thats nowhere near glorious or honorable. She on purpose made him doubt himself so he would hesitate and give her an excuse to burn the Tree and feed the Jailer. She would have done it anyway but she wanted to puppeteer the Horde some more...
    None of that is even remotely true. Sylvanas was surprised to learn that Malfurion still lives and went into rumination mode in regards to how to salvage the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Your headcanon and the use of that word, which I'm tired of repeating is, just staggering. Laughable.

    So once again, it's not. Therefore you can't use it to guilt anyone into doing what you want. Players or writers. Get over yourselves and stop this cringe.
    You don't have to repeat that, since mod were clear to drop the genocide discussion. You are the only one still talking about it.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  6. #246
    Since my previous posts were all hidden, I'll try to convey the same basic message without using any of the no-no words:

    Systematically killing innocents is bad.

    Saurfang was there when Blackhand's Horde did the same thing. It was bad then too.


    Saurfang experiences PTSD when he sees it happen again under his new warchief. For good reason. It was very bad.


    Sylvanas is a villain.
    Sylvanas is bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  7. #247
    Loved that cinematic. Finally Saurfang pointed out how the Horde is founded on a lie. The Burning of Teldrassil proves that the "New" Horde is not a new Horde at all. It is just as vile as the Horde that carried out the Genocide of the Draenei.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  8. #248
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    25,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Loved that cinematic. Finally Saurfang pointed out how the Horde is founded on a lie. The Burning of Teldrassil proves that the "New" Horde is not a new Horde at all. It is just as vile as the Horde that carried out the Genocide of the Draenei.
    Saurfang points out that Thrall (the founder of the "New Horde") along with Vol'jin were aberrations, in his view; and that Sylvanas (and presumably Garrosh who goes unmentioned) were the true inheritors of the Horde of Blackhand, a continuation of the Old Horde with its atrocities. The Horde as a people have, to their shame, always followed the cues of a strong leader - which I suppose is the foible of almost all societies based on a dictatorship, where an autocratic figure dictates terms to the people. The Horde reflects the heart of its leader, whether that heart aspires to great things (Thrall), revels in bloody warmongering (Garrosh), or is mired in a pragmatism so brutal and stripped of essential humanity that it uses atrocity as a bargaining chip (Sylvanas).
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Saurfang points out that Thrall (the founder of the "New Horde") along with Vol'jin were aberrations, in his view; and that Sylvanas (and presumably Garrosh who goes unmentioned) were the true inheritors of the Horde of Blackhand, a continuation of the Old Horde with its atrocities. The Horde as a people have, to their shame, always followed the cues of a strong leader - which I suppose is the foible of almost all societies based on a dictatorship, where an autocratic figure dictates terms to the people. The Horde reflects the heart of its leader, whether that heart aspires to great things (Thrall), revels in bloody warmongering (Garrosh), or is mired in a pragmatism so brutal and stripped of essential humanity that it uses atrocity as a bargaining chip (Sylvanas).
    Saurfang died in defense of Azeroth, their shared home. Rather than for the Horde, which he took to his grave whether he believed was still worth saving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  10. #250
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    25,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Saurfang died in defense of Azeroth, their shared home. Rather than for the Horde, which he took to his grave whether he believed was still worth saving.
    On the eve of his fated duel with Sylvanas, he accepted that those who defended Orgrimmar were still his brothers and sisters, so I think it's safe to say he died hoping that the Horde could still be saved - and he sacrificed himself so that it could be done without bloodshed or pitting the Horde against itself once more. He both died defending Azeroth, and trying to save the Horde from itself once more.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Thanos wanted to save the universe from overpopulation and resource scarcity. Instead of snapping unlimited resources into being, he decided to obliterate half the universe, unaware or uncaring that trillions more would die as collateral damage. Sylvanas has been sending everyone who died in the Fourth War to hell and wiped out an entire city where the majority of the population were civilians guilty of nothing worse than maybe missing church once in a while. She knowingly threw the Horde into an absolute meat grinder and damned countless brave warriors to Hell for her own personal benefit, the Horde be damned.

    Giving an evil psychopath an understandable motive doesn't make their actions justified or them any less evil or psychotic. Let's not pretend she's Adrian Veidt or something here.
    Let's also not forget, as confirmed by the Russo Brothers, that Thanos snapped 50% of all LIFE out of existence. This also includes animals and plants. Not only did he snap 50% of the people he blamed for consuming too many resources out of existence, he also snapped 50% of all organic resources out of existence too, thereby defeating the entire point of what he did. Through this revelation, they turned Thanos from a master planner fighting for something he believed in into a complete and total moron.
    I see something very similar happening to Sylvanas.

  12. #252
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    25,667
    This thread appears to be more or less permanently derailed and will now be closed.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •