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  1. #21
    The problem is that after Wrath, Blizzard completely ditched the concept of "hybrids" entirely. Death Knights had some of the most well-designed talent trees ever made, but unless Blizzard brings back talent trees, being able to choose if each spec is Tank or DPS will just never be an option.

    Like I said, there's nothing inherently *wrong* with the playstyles as they exist now. But the specializations themselves are just fundamentally at-odds with their combat roles, and I think that's something that is still important to address.

    I think giving each spec a more defined sense of identity would go a long ways towards making the class feel exciting again, and also provide a clear-cut outlet for each type of "Death Knight fantasy" different players are striving towards.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    The problem is that after Wrath, Blizzard completely ditched the concept of "hybrids" entirely. Death Knights had some of the most well-designed talent trees ever made, but unless Blizzard brings back talent trees, being able to choose if each spec is Tank or DPS will just never be an option.

    Like I said, there's nothing inherently *wrong* with the playstyles as they exist now. But the specializations themselves are just fundamentally at-odds with their combat roles, and I think that's something that is still important to address.

    I think giving each spec a more defined sense of identity would go a long ways towards making the class feel exciting again, and also provide a clear-cut outlet for each type of "Death Knight fantasy" different players are striving towards.
    I have to disagree with the notion it's impossible to allow role/spec independence under the current system. I could think of several ways right now that would work. We could get two specs and all spec flavor given to the talents. We could keep the current system and have the first row of talents be DPS / DPS w pet / tank.

    As far as the playstyles go, they just don't hit the mark. UH is a combo point management system that's just really not that fun. Frost is a 2 or 3 button spec with several short/medium cooldowns. It's like Havoc but not as fun or strong.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaersulf View Post
    100% agree. How they came up with the coolest DPS cooldown in the game in Dancing Rune Weapon, then decided that blood should tank, I'll never know.
    Blizzard went on record of saying the only reason they made Blood the tanking spec was because that was the one everyone used for tanking at the time. Yes Unholy and frost could do it as well but Blood was the most optimal and used by top guilds no to mention the damage it was outputting...that's literally it which is sad.
    Last edited by itzLCD; 2020-02-24 at 10:55 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by itzLCD View Post
    Blizzard went on record of saying the only reason they made Blood the tanking spec was because that was the one everyone used for tanking at the time. Yes Unholy and frost could do it as well but Blood was the most optimal and used by top guilds no to mention the damage it was outputting...that's literally it which is sad.
    UH was by far the best tank on progression.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I have to disagree with the notion it's impossible to allow role/spec independence under the current system. I could think of several ways right now that would work. We could get two specs and all spec flavor given to the talents. We could keep the current system and have the first row of talents be DPS / DPS w pet / tank.

    As far as the playstyles go, they just don't hit the mark. UH is a combo point management system that's just really not that fun. Frost is a 2 or 3 button spec with several short/medium cooldowns. It's like Havoc but not as fun or strong.
    I don't think that's a realistic solution. Even if those choices involved *dramatic* changes, like "Increases Threat and Armor by 200%, lowers Damage by 40%", I think it would just be a mess. And you'd still wind up with massive shifts in which spec is "best". So instead of 3 specs, they'd be expected to balance 6-9 "specs" for the DK alone.

    As much as I definitely miss the classic Talent trees, I don't think the existing Talent structure would support what you're thinking. Although it's an interesting idea! And at the very least, I like the idea of letting DK's choose whether or not they have a pet.

    At the end of the day, each spec is always going to have a role it's trying to achieve. I feel like the current roles just don't quite line up with their respective "specializations". Mixing it up would be a huge, huge win for the class, and making classes more exciting benefits everyone. Especially by committing to more clearly-focused inspiration for each spec, I think it would create a greater sense of identity which would make it easier to ensure things don't become quite so "messy" again in the future.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I don't think that's a realistic solution. Even if those choices involved *dramatic* changes, like "Increases Threat and Armor by 200%, lowers Damage by 40%", I think it would just be a mess. And you'd still wind up with massive shifts in which spec is "best". So instead of 3 specs, they'd be expected to balance 6-9 "specs" for the DK alone.

    As much as I definitely miss the classic Talent trees, I don't think the existing Talent structure would support what you're thinking. Although it's an interesting idea! And at the very least, I like the idea of letting DK's choose whether or not they have a pet.

    At the end of the day, each spec is always going to have a role it's trying to achieve. I feel like the current roles just don't quite line up with their respective "specializations". Mixing it up would be a huge, huge win for the class, and making classes more exciting benefits everyone. Especially by committing to more clearly-focused inspiration for each spec, I think it would create a greater sense of identity which would make it easier to ensure things don't become quite so "messy" again in the future.
    While it's true to say that you'd effectively be balancing approximately 6 specs, many of talents would simply overlap,as they have across specs since this system was introduced. My main problem with this argument is that we could just accept what we have, which I think is uninspired laziness on the devs part, or be vocal about change and suggest changes to the devs. I don't seek for everyone to like my personal ideas, but I do disagree that they're not reasonable.

    Trust me, this is a discussion I'd love to hammer out with someone in detail.

  7. #27
    I miss frost tank, even Icebound fortitude is a testament to icy toughness! Nice thread m8, kudos.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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    All this sounds fine but, if I am being honest with myself, I'd be happy if they just brought two handed Frost back.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Triggered Fridgekin View Post
    All this sounds fine but, if I am being honest with myself, I'd be happy if they just brought two handed Frost back.
    I'll be honest I never understood that. Is there really that big of a difference between the two? Discord seems pretty set on the chance for two weapons to crit being higher overall DPS than 1 single weapon that could crit given similar circumstances.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I'll be honest I never understood that. Is there really that big of a difference between the two? Discord seems pretty set on the chance for two weapons to crit being higher overall DPS than 1 single weapon that could crit given similar circumstances.
    For me it's all about aesthetics and how it compliments the fantasy. I like the idea of a harbinger of icy doom swinging down with the force of an avalanche rather than this machine gun play-style it seems to have evolved in to with slappy one-handed weapons.
    A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.

  11. #31
    I loved when Blizz experimented with the Gladiator talent in Prot War during early WoD that allowed you to DPS as a Prot Warrior. I wish they added that to all the non-typical DPS specs, for healers and tanks. They could have extended it to allow DPS specs of tank classes to tank as well (tanking with a moonkin would be pretty badass). Too many people complained about having to go Prot since it outperformed Fury/Arms in Highmaul and Blizz caved it and gutted it, then removed it in Legion. I wish they'd experiment with it again.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I'll be honest I never understood that. Is there really that big of a difference between the two? Discord seems pretty set on the chance for two weapons to crit being higher overall DPS than 1 single weapon that could crit given similar circumstances.
    Come on on, you are that blind? we had it, we liked it's looks and replaced eventually with 2 sticks.
    Doesn't fit the fantasy for most people. This includes mutlitple things.. big critts, big sword of icy death aka Arthas style, looks better and ofc the toothpick argument.

    that's it.. it sums up nicely what people said in this thread.. yea double chance to critt we get it..not the point.

  13. #33
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    Did people just feel craft in WoTLK? Frost was easily the worst spec for tanking, and the only boss it was really good for was Hodir because of the magic damage amplification. It's amazing to me that people remember an entirely differrnt game than me.

    UH was by and large the premier tank spec in WoTLK with Blood jumping in towards the end. I think people just automatically assumed frost was the tank spec because of what each presence did, not what each tree actually had. Unbreakable armor sucked BTW.

    Frost has always been the worst designed spec for DKs and the fact they double downed and made it the dual wield spec only further cements that point (imo).

    But yeah, frost was a shit tier tank spec in WoTLK, the worst one we could actually run. People must have been confused because of the presence.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Did people just feel craft in WoTLK? Frost was easily the worst spec for tanking, and the only boss it was really good for was Hodir because of the magic damage amplification. It's amazing to me that people remember an entirely differrnt game than me.

    UH was by and large the premier tank spec in WoTLK with Blood jumping in towards the end. I think people just automatically assumed frost was the tank spec because of what each presence did, not what each tree actually had. Unbreakable armor sucked BTW.

    Frost has always been the worst designed spec for DKs and the fact they double downed and made it the dual wield spec only further cements that point (imo).

    But yeah, frost was a shit tier tank spec in WoTLK, the worst one we could actually run. People must have been confused because of the presence.
    Being the worst tanking spec doesn't mean that people didn't play it nor does it mean that people didn't enjoy tanking in that style nor does it mean that there's anything inherently wrong with it, outside of encounters preferring a few specific talents that were available to the two other tanking trees.
    What's being discussed here is the fantasy. Anything else is just up to whatever you put into the spec. Literally anything can be the tanking tree of DKs if you think about it. Switch Bone Shield (let's call it Frost shield) over to Frost and see what would've happened in WotLK. Frost is the only tree that really sells the fantasy of a tank. Oh and people weren't confused, after all, everyone knew each spec could be a tank. They just liked how spec x played.

    What people care is about feel of play and the overall fantasy that comes with a class. Anything doing with its usefulness/power is something that is easily changeable and tweaked. That's why Frost tank is something people want. Some because they miss Blood DPS (thus just using it as means to get that back), some because they loved tanking.
    I loved playing Frost tank in heroic 5 mans back in the days and I haven't been that much into tanking since WotLK/Cata.
    Heck, I first played Blood while leveling up due to the awesome healing capabilities, but quickly discovered after testing each spec that Frost was my thing back in WotLK. Whether it was dps'ing (2H) or tanking or pvp, I was frost. That kind of concern for gameplay and sense of fun when playing and the fantasy of your class is what's really important for Blizzard to nail.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    So basically, the original DK speccs as defined in WOTLK, when the world made sense xD.
    No. Frost was never a good tank spec. Unholy beat its ass for 10s, and Blood did for 25.

    This is one of those idle and thoughtless proposals that people who don't actually main DKs like. The only good suggestion in it is getting rid of dual-wielding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilux View Post
    Being the worst tanking spec doesn't mean that people didn't play it nor does it mean that people didn't enjoy tanking in that style nor does it mean that there's anything inherently wrong with it, outside of encounters preferring a few specific talents that were available to the two other tanking trees.
    It's complete fucking trash to suggest that it's the "real" tanking spec though. It's just an outright lie. It's also false for you to claim it was about certain encounters. Unholy fucking rocked for tanking in virtually all situations, where Frost was mediocre to bad in virtually all situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilux View Post
    What's being discussed here is the fantasy. Anything else is just up to whatever you put into the spec. Literally anything can be the tanking tree of DKs if you think about it. Switch Bone Shield (let's call it Frost shield) over to Frost and see what would've happened in WotLK. Frost is the only tree that really sells the fantasy of a tank. Oh and people weren't confused, after all, everyone knew each spec could be a tank. They just liked how spec x played.
    Bollocks. Most people here never played a DK in Wrath. Most people here don't main a DK (that's VERY clear from some of the comments), and probably never have.

    It's total trash say "Frost is the only tree that sells the fantasy of a tank". Total and utter trash. Nobody thought "Oh Frost is the natural tank tree!" at the time. Nobody. People were all delighted to have three tank trees. Unholy or Blood are absolutely just as justified as "selling the fantasy" of being a tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilux View Post
    What people care is about feel of play and the overall fantasy that comes with a class. Anything doing with its usefulness/power is something that is easily changeable and tweaked. That's why Frost tank is something people want. Some because they miss Blood DPS (thus just using it as means to get that back), some because they loved tanking.
    It's something people who don't main DKs think they want, but won't actually engage with. Something people who were bads in WotLK and insisted on using a bad spec to tank with want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilux View Post
    I loved playing Frost tank in heroic 5 mans back in the days and I haven't been that much into tanking since WotLK/Cata.
    Heck, I first played Blood while leveling up due to the awesome healing capabilities, but quickly discovered after testing each spec that Frost was my thing back in WotLK. Whether it was dps'ing (2H) or tanking or pvp, I was frost. That kind of concern for gameplay and sense of fun when playing and the fantasy of your class is what's really important for Blizzard to nail.
    So you want the entire class and all the players who actually play it (not you, it seems), actually tank in it, to bow down to your weird nostalgia? Seriously?

  16. #36
    To lots of folks here: I'm always glad to see I'm not the only one who is missing the old DK.

    To OP:

    Frost - I definitely like the idea of Frost being the tank spec, it makes so much more sense for a frost DK to be protected by layers of ice etc. I'd even up the concept a tad by sharing one of my own ideas. The frost DK tank could wield a one-hander in main hand and then conjure a literal ice shield and wield that in his off-hand. The ice shield could even be different shapes, like spiky for example, which could provide some kind of additional damage. Or it can be bigger/thicker which could provide additional defences. The bonuses could either be passives, or activatable, based on which shield is currently conjured. Something like the oldschool pressenses, but for a conjured ice shield instead.

    Unholy - Honestly, in my personal opinion, this is the best spec of the DK currenly. There's lots of stuff to press all the time, and the class fantasy really fits. He actually IS the necromancer you describe. Even though artefact weapons are gone DKs still have Apocalypse which still conjures ghouls. Apart from them you also have: army ghouls, regular ghoul (which can be transformed into a monstrosity), magus of dead, and depending on other circumstances you can also poop out an abomination and gargoyle.

    Blood - I absolutely love your concept - especially the idea of sacrificing life for additional damage or maybe even movement speed?? Blood DK being this mindless, bloodthirsty berserker, constantly charging in, constantly slamming around ... this would most definitely be more fitting than the current iteration of the spec.

  17. #37
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    Frost was the tank spec, it made sense. Cold and hard. Blood was DELICIOUS dps spec and DRW was a GLORIOUS cooldown while stacking ArPen. if it wasn't for Clawing shadows, I wouldn't have even played dk at all.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBoss View Post
    Frost was the tank spec, it made sense. Cold and hard. Blood was DELICIOUS dps spec and DRW was a GLORIOUS cooldown while stacking ArPen. if it wasn't for Clawing shadows, I wouldn't have even played dk at all.
    Clawing Shadows wasn't even added till Legion. As has been said many times, Frost was inferior in every way to the other two specs.

  19. #39
    Blood doesn't make sense for a dk. DKs aren't vampires.

    DKs in traditional folklore are evil knights or undead knights, that mix martial skill with dark magic, they're not always necromancers either.

    Instead of Blood, DKs would have fit better with a Shadow/Witchcraft theme.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    The problem is that after Wrath, Blizzard completely ditched the concept of "hybrids" entirely. Death Knights had some of the most well-designed talent trees ever made, but unless Blizzard brings back talent trees, being able to choose if each spec is Tank or DPS will just never be an option.

    Like I said, there's nothing inherently *wrong* with the playstyles as they exist now. But the specializations themselves are just fundamentally at-odds with their combat roles, and I think that's something that is still important to address.

    I think giving each spec a more defined sense of identity would go a long ways towards making the class feel exciting again, and also provide a clear-cut outlet for each type of "Death Knight fantasy" different players are striving towards.
    I liked your idea, but I also really like blood as a tank spec. I believe what Dks, and in bigger extent what wow needs, is more thematic abilities for classes.

    take blood for example, all your abilities are just your character spinning around with a 2h. you barely notice anything special about blood. the only ability I can think of that is thematic is probably dancing bones buff you get. there is only probably one ability like blood drinker which is cool, but its considered useless if you want to do any mythic past level 10 or any raid higher than normal.
    dancing rune weapon is in a very buggy state now too, you hardly even notice it.

    frost is in a much better state atm because it has more useful thematic abilities. IMO howling blast old animation was better than the new one too.

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