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  1. #101
    Bloodsail Admiral czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    Most can agree that tab targeting / GCD based combat feels slow and is outdated in comparison to action combat.
    Instead of the auto-attack we currently have, what if WoW had an active weapon attack ability that is not affected by the game's GCD that can act as a filler in between other abilities? Would that create the illusion of a faster paced / more fun gameplay?

    WoW can easily be made to feel like an action combat game by changing all single target attacks into frontal AoE attacks not requiring a target. I think the game needs more of these, especially for melee classes.

    Edit:
    The idea is that you're already spamming the button of your next rotation ability, except nothing is happening so you keep bashing the button until GCD timer ends. Instead of bashing a button without anything happening, why not switch to an off GCD ability while waiting for GCD timer to finish. Wouldn't it make for a more interesting, non repeatable mindless pattern of 1, 2, 3, 4 rinse and repeat? Have the off GCD spammable ability be weak but trigger combos that are different every now and then and get rid of exact rotations...dynamic game play would make it more interesting imho instead of 1,2,3,4 or 1, spam, 2, spam, 3, spam...etc
    ??? WoW actually is action combat spam button game as hell u want make it more ? I dont want to make combos like in mortal kombat with no cd. That would be just like trash mobile game and tbh with no cd u can do basicly 1 macro and spam 1 button...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "Your attacks have a chance to _____" has been a huge thing since vanilla, as part of classes, as part of abilities, and as part of items.

    Windfury, dont forget windfury "oh im gunna fight this shaman, and he just hit me 5 times at once and im dead"
    Dont forget stuff like crit, where warlock would do like 1/10th your health per shadowbolt, but then BOOM CRIT and you drop half health in 1 hit.
    And then class abilities too.

    Man look at all these RNG based effects, and this is JUST druid talents. i havent even gotten to their spells, or the many other classes. all of this in vanilla, then pair that with gear like trinkets, weapons, and some rare items. then pair that with enchants ontop like weapon enchants and the such.

    yes, there has always been "I have like 5 things procced right now, i have no control, so i just do my rotation, and try to pop my CD's when i have the most procs up"

    - - - Updated - - -



    "Small amount" RNG procs has never been a small amount.
    Wow dude, just wow. Ok, I will take the time to answer every single line of bullshit you just spouted.

    The first 2 green paragraphs are, for those who didn't instantly recognise them, the procs of SULFURAS and THUNDERFURY. You know, the procs of LEGENDARIES. That guilds needed MONTHS to farm, craft and complete. They are allowed to be OP, they're fucking LEGENDARIES.

    Now, on to the druid talents. Starting from top left and moving to bottom right, you've included Nature's Grasp (which is a talent that does NOT stay at 35%, it goes to 100%, making it an actual activated ability), Improved Entangling Roots (why the fuck would you mention this when talking about procs?) which also goes to 100% with 3/3, Omen of Clarity (sure, 1st RNG Chance on Hit that is a talent, that's the 1st one). Then, 2nd row, we move to (for some reason) 1/5 Improved Starfire, which goes to -0.5 (to be in line with Imp Shadowbolt/Frostbolt/Fireball) and a 15% chance to stun (ok, 2nd RNG chance on hit that is a talent, that's 2 now). Nature's grace is NOT a proc, it is NOT a "chance on hit", it happens ON EVERY SPELL CRIT, so it has 100% chance of occuring. The RNG part is critting, not the talent itself.

    Then you go on to list Feline Swiftness? Again only 1 point in it though, at 2/2 it reads +4% dodge +30% movement speed. How that is a proc, god knows. Then the next on the list is MOONKIN AURA? WHAT? That's not a proc, that's an AURA. Same with Leader of the Pack. What? How are the 2 iconic druid auras procs? Because they add crit? And critting is a "passive proc"? Let's move on...

    You then list the Bear and Cat talents that generate combo points and extra rage on crits, but fail to put TWO talent points in them to bring them up to 100%. It's NOT 50% chance each, it's 100% chance each, making them...guess what...class mechanics, NOT procs. You then list Furor...with 1 point in it. It's not 20% chance to gain resources when you shapeshift, it's 100%, when you put 5/5 talent points in it. The 14% chance to reduce interruption while casting also goes to 70%, to bring it in line with other healers pushback protection. Lastly, you list Insect Swarm, that adds 2% chance to MISS on the boss...so...there's your 3rd RNG proc? I guess? and you also list Improved Regrowth (again at 1/5), which noone ever takes because Regrowth in Raids on Classic is very very situational.

    You are dishonest, pulling at straws, and what's worse, you're using MY favourite class's talents to do so. Begone with you. I always saw people mention how "Felplague is delusional" and didn't understand what they meant, now I do.

    On Topic: Auto-attack is too iconic to remove. Leave it as it is.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2020-02-26 at 07:26 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    big screenshot dump
    Why do people always jump to (garbage) comparisons to Vanilla? There's 6 expansions between then and now, and none of them have given the player as little control over their damage as corrupted gear.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Why do people always jump to (garbage) comparisons to Vanilla? There's 6 expansions between then and now, and none of them have given the player as little control over their damage as corrupted gear.
    The guy posted no less than 15 mini-screenshots of weapon procs and incomplete talent tooltips...only to mention three distinct, actual PROCS, that the player has no control over (Omen of Clarity, Improved Starfire Stun proc and...Insect Swarm, which is a long-shot). Truth of the matter is: In Classic, if the Mage does not hit Frostbolt, he is doing 0 dmg. If the warlock is not hitting Shadowbolt, he is doing 0 dmg. If the moonkin is not hitting Starfire, he is doing 0 dmg. The ONLY "passive dmg" Moonkins get is...Moonfire DoT, which is not supposed to be used in raids due to debuff slot limitation.

  5. #105
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    Old paladins and shamans would want to have a word with you.

    First of all "auto-attack" system isn't outdated, it's just different of something you "want". This is separate system that have own dis/advantages, that's all. I see no point or reason in such heated discussion.

    Returning to the first sentence, such system helps a lot with direct/hybrid supports in their difficult work and allows system to have variable types of gameplay, and not just buttons'-spam-fighting-alike one. It’s already mentioned that there is kind of tab-target without auto-attack in swtor, but this is only half of it, auto-attack allows even classes with active basic damage (hunters, rogues, warriors) to play from haste/hit/expertise stats (while one part of them plays from yellow damage in form of burst, the other one do from tunnel damage of a more "smeared" style).

    So, you're wrong, this is different style, different system, that's all... your personal rejection of this doesn't play any role in this matter. I understand that they, due to their unhealthy stupidity, loaded it with number of completely inappropriate systems (refers to characteristics&itemization systems), which have audacity to nonchalantly invade "class" area, but! This isn't mistake/outdate of original systems, no no, this is just mistake and incompetence of people who are working with them now and you'd better talk about exactly that... humph *hopeless hand wave*
    Tradu
    Not sure why you quoted me or even what you're trying to say.
    mmm. Sorry forget to delete quote, initially addressed to OP, focused on message instead of correcting beginning. Yours one was probably the last in the list at the beginning of writing mine, and given the device used, it’s usually faster "Reply With Quote" for me when working with forum interface, sorry again. And about understanding...

    Key points: auto-attack isn't outdated, just different; being integral part of overall working system, also happen as indicator of errors in case of its incorrect operation.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-02-29 at 03:57 PM.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Old paladins and shamans would want to have a word with you.

    First of all "auto-attack" system isn't outdated, it's just different of something you "want". This is separate system that have own dis/advantages, that's all. I see no point or reason in such heated discussion.

    Returning to the first sentence, such system helps a lot with direct/hybrid supports in their difficult work and allows system to have variable types of gameplay, and not just buttons'-spam-fighting-alike one. It’s already mentioned that there is kind of tab-target without auto-attack in swtor is also organized, but this is only half of it, auto-attack allows even classes with active basic damage (hunters, rogues, warriors) to play from haste/hit/expertise stats, while part plays from yellow damage in form of burst, and the other do from tunnel damage of a more "smeared" style.

    So, you're wrong, this is different style, different system, that's all... your personal rejection of this doesn't play any role in this matter. I understand that they, due to their unhealthy stupidity, loaded it with number of completely inappropriate systems (refers to characteristics&itemization systems), which have audacity to nonchalantly invade "class" area, but! This isn't mistake/outdate of original systems, no no, this is just mistake and incompetence of people who are working with them now and you'd better talk about exactly that... humph *hopeless hand wave*
    Not sure why you quoted me or even what you're trying to say.
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  7. #107
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Why do people always jump to (garbage) comparisons to Vanilla? There's 6 expansions between then and now, and none of them have given the player as little control over their damage as corrupted gear.
    I can compare prior expansions, but then people simply go "well go back further!" then i do that and they say "GO BACK EVEN FURTHER" till i eventually have to show all the expansions.
    so its easier to just go straight to vanilla, as usually the bullshitters are classic hardcore fanbois.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Wow dude, just wow. Ok, I will take the time to answer every single line of bullshit you just spouted.

    The first 2 green paragraphs are, for those who didn't instantly recognise them, the procs of SULFURAS and THUNDERFURY. You know, the procs of LEGENDARIES. That guilds needed MONTHS to farm, craft and complete. They are allowed to be OP, they're fucking LEGENDARIES.

    Now, on to the druid talents. Starting from top left and moving to bottom right, you've included Nature's Grasp (which is a talent that does NOT stay at 35%, it goes to 100%, making it an actual activated ability), Improved Entangling Roots (why the fuck would you mention this when talking about procs?) which also goes to 100% with 3/3, Omen of Clarity (sure, 1st RNG Chance on Hit that is a talent, that's the 1st one). Then, 2nd row, we move to (for some reason) 1/5 Improved Starfire, which goes to -0.5 (to be in line with Imp Shadowbolt/Frostbolt/Fireball) and a 15% chance to stun (ok, 2nd RNG chance on hit that is a talent, that's 2 now). Nature's grace is NOT a proc, it is NOT a "chance on hit", it happens ON EVERY SPELL CRIT, so it has 100% chance of occuring. The RNG part is critting, not the talent itself.

    Then you go on to list Feline Swiftness? Again only 1 point in it though, at 2/2 it reads +4% dodge +30% movement speed. How that is a proc, god knows. Then the next on the list is MOONKIN AURA? WHAT? That's not a proc, that's an AURA. Same with Leader of the Pack. What? How are the 2 iconic druid auras procs? Because they add crit? And critting is a "passive proc"? Let's move on...

    You then list the Bear and Cat talents that generate combo points and extra rage on crits, but fail to put TWO talent points in them to bring them up to 100%. It's NOT 50% chance each, it's 100% chance each, making them...guess what...class mechanics, NOT procs. You then list Furor...with 1 point in it. It's not 20% chance to gain resources when you shapeshift, it's 100%, when you put 5/5 talent points in it. The 14% chance to reduce interruption while casting also goes to 70%, to bring it in line with other healers pushback protection. Lastly, you list Insect Swarm, that adds 2% chance to MISS on the boss...so...there's your 3rd RNG proc? I guess? and you also list Improved Regrowth (again at 1/5), which noone ever takes because Regrowth in Raids on Classic is very very situational.

    You are dishonest, pulling at straws, and what's worse, you're using MY favourite class's talents to do so. Begone with you. I always saw people mention how "Felplague is delusional" and didn't understand what they meant, now I do.

    On Topic: Auto-attack is too iconic to remove. Leave it as it is.
    1. i used the 2 legendaries because they are the most famous examples, but i can make like a list of 100+ weapons with random procs. I literally made not 1, but 2 videos about them, and i have still enough for 5 more, and that is just the "interesting" ones.

    2. Yes, because if you only get 1 point into those talents, they are for sure random procs. also dodge, crit, etc, all random, especially if you have a "this procs when you spell crit" then you either get tons of random procs during a fight, or you get 1 proc. crit, dodge, hit, etc are random, especially with those talents buffing them. as the guy complains "random procs that you have no control over" well there you go, and i can show you more classes, but that would be a waste.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I can compare prior expansions, but then people simply go "well go back further!" then i do that and they say "GO BACK EVEN FURTHER" till i eventually have to show all the expansions.
    so its easier to just go straight to vanilla, as usually the bullshitters are classic hardcore fanbois.

    - - - Updated - - -



    1. i used the 2 legendaries because they are the most famous examples, but i can make like a list of 100+ weapons with random procs. I literally made not 1, but 2 videos about them, and i have still enough for 5 more, and that is just the "interesting" ones.

    2. Yes, because if you only get 1 point into those talents, they are for sure random procs. also dodge, crit, etc, all random, especially if you have a "this procs when you spell crit" then you either get tons of random procs during a fight, or you get 1 proc. crit, dodge, hit, etc are random, especially with those talents buffing them. as the guy complains "random procs that you have no control over" well there you go, and i can show you more classes, but that would be a waste.
    Dude....listen to yourself. Please. No druid in his right mind would only put 1/3 or 1/2 or 1/5 in those talent choices. I can make a spec where I put 1 talent point EVERYWHERE and max out NOTHING, does that mean the game is "filled with RNG" because I forced it to act that way? If you intentionally put 2/5 in Furor, making it a 40% chance to give you resources when you shapeshift, instead of 5/5 in Furor, which makes it ONE HUNDRED PER CENT (I.E. NOT RANDOM AT ALL), then that doesn't mean the game has randomness to it, it means YOU are choosing to add that randomness.

    Find me the competitive druid specs that don't max out talents, I'm waiting for a link (and no, 1 talent being at 2/3 because it's flex-points doesn't count, I want a full spec of 2/5's and 1/3's and 3/5's). You are REALLY pulling at straws.

    Also, regarding the 2 legendaries, Hand of Ragnaros proc is JUST a fireball (so just an extra small dmg increase with a DoT), and Thunderfury has a 20% proc chance per hit. We just made our Thunderfury for my guild 2 nights ago, did 3 Strat UD runs with the warrior who got it in order to test the blade out. When you have packs of 3-4 mobs, wanna know what a proc rate of 20% means? It means Thunderfury procced on EVERY SINGLE PACK. With no exceptions. Wanna know what we call that in Statistics? STATISTICAL CERTAINTY, or P(x) = 1. You know what statistical certainty is? It's fact. It's not random. It's a state of being. 3 runs in a row, every single pack, Thunderfury procced at least once (and lasts 12 seconds) so the NR reduction and attack speed reduction debuffs are in fact, NOT random, and are statistical certainty, because after pulling over 100 packs over the course of 3 runs, it procced on every single pack without fail. I.e, P(x) = 1. (Probability of X happening equals one hundred percent). If you can't understand basic, high school statistics, then I'm sorry but that is not my problem.

    May I suggest "Statistics for Business & Economics", authors are McClave and Benson, it's a good textbook, used it in my early Uni years for my Bachelor's, still use it as a reference in some cases since I keep it on my desk at work.

    Now, assuming you got a decent grasp of how statistics work, RNG has been in every single RPG since their inception. May I point you to Dungeons & Dragons (the game all western RPG's are based off of) and the D20 system. Crits, Hits, Misses, Dodges, Parries, Blocks, Resists, Partial Blocks, Partial Resists, those are all CORE mechanics of ANY RPG. Simply the fact a weapon reads "115-164 damage" means there's RNG involved. Noone is complaining about that. But to argue that there is MORE RNG when you yourself have forced it to appear by putting 1 talent point everywhere like an illiterate 4year old does NOT mean the game has the excessive RNG you claim it has.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2020-02-27 at 11:06 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't mind the removal of autoattack. It's mostly cosmetic in functionality, i.e. the point is to make melee look more engaged in actual fighting by constantly moving. The damage is a boring passive stream of DPS you design around, it has little engagement in terms of functionality.
    WTB how characters auto attack in old times - it showed very well, and say you got a haste buff or a double attack, it super mattered and it showed in the animation.

    Actually mained a Fury in Classic just for how it looks when Flurry procs

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Manu9 View Post
    WTB how characters auto attack in old times - it showed very well, and say you got a haste buff or a double attack, it super mattered and it showed in the animation.

    Actually mained a Fury in Classic just for how it looks when Flurry procs
    Animations are still pretty awesome.

    You just don't see them as a melee, because you're in the middle of a glaring ball of particle effects from every mob, player, and passing critter in the vicinity.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    Most can agree that tab targeting / GCD based combat feels slow and is outdated in comparison to action combat.
    Instead of the auto-attack we currently have, what if WoW had an active weapon attack ability that is not affected by the game's GCD that can act as a filler in between other abilities? Would that create the illusion of a faster paced / more fun gameplay?

    WoW can easily be made to feel like an action combat game by changing all single target attacks into frontal AoE attacks not requiring a target. I think the game needs more of these, especially for melee classes.

    Edit:
    The idea is that you're already spamming the button of your next rotation ability, except nothing is happening so you keep bashing the button until GCD timer ends. Instead of bashing a button without anything happening, why not switch to an off GCD ability while waiting for GCD timer to finish. Wouldn't it make for a more interesting, non repeatable mindless pattern of 1, 2, 3, 4 rinse and repeat? Have the off GCD spammable ability be weak but trigger combos that are different every now and then and get rid of exact rotations...dynamic game play would make it more interesting imho instead of 1,2,3,4 or 1, spam, 2, spam, 3, spam...etc
    If you go away from Tab Targeting it will kill what few subs are left, my favorite MMO of all time was The Secret World. When they decided to remaster the game and release it again with no way to allow for tab targeting I instantly deleted the game and never touched it again. If I cannot link all movement to my mouse and use keybinds for abilities and tab target I don't play the game. They could get rid of auto attack though, SWTOR does not have one and it plays just fine.

  12. #112
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    Alternate thread title: "Auto-attack Outdated? RSI the cool new thing?"

    This is a stunningly terrible idea.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Alternate thread title: "Auto-attack Outdated? RSI the cool new thing?"

    This is a stunningly terrible idea.
    WoW is not fully tab targeting just so you know, Half the skills don't require a target. Casters have no auto-attack either. Just trying to explore ways to make melee classes feel fun, paladin is horrible now for example, but that's mostly for lack of enough active skills and the GCD changes.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    WoW is not fully tab targeting just so you know, Half the skills don't require a target. Casters have no auto-attack either. Just trying to explore ways to make melee classes feel fun, paladin is horrible now for example, but that's mostly for lack of enough active skills and the GCD changes.
    Casters have no auto-attack but they're not having to spam keys constantly WHILST they're casting. This is effectively what you're asking for. Your proposal, as is, is basically bad. You want people to spam keys constantly, every second they're in combat, and presumably keep track of what is effectively a GCD within a GCD.

    If you want it to be like SWTOR (which has no autoattacks), or like casters, you go the OPPOSITE direction. You don't have off-the-GCD or second-GCD attack-spamming. You rebalance all the existing stuff so that it takes account of there being no autoattack, and you give a filler attack, which is ON the GCD, but doesn't have a cooldown beyond that. You make it so they're pushing something every 1.5 seconds or so.

    That way, you avoid giving every melee player RSI and don't make them track two bloody GCDs.

    It's true that Ret Paladin is a bit... empty... ability-wise, but that's a problem specific to Ret Paladins. It's not a general problem with melees as a whole. It doesn't warrant removing autoattack as a whole. Instead they should re-work Ret (again). If you really want to remove auto-attack, the replacement isn't something to spam when you're GCD'd, it's a rebalancing existing abilities and a filler attack. You'd have to redesign an awful lot of stuff though.

  15. #115
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Did Blizzard not test that out with the Monks in MoP Beta and found out that it felt really wierd? Im actually curious about this.


    When it comes to my opinion, i really like the feel of auto-attacks. I know when it comes to function, it matters very little. But they make my melee character look busy, same reason why i like playing hunters over most spellcasters, as it just feels like their is empty space in the rotation.

    Also, it does sound like OP just wants to do active auto-attacks, which kinda sounds really rough when it comes to +10 min boss fights, constantly pushing the off-GCD button through the entire fight O.o I think the current system works fine and that with about 20% haste, most classes feel really smooth when it comes to combat pacing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    On Topic: Auto-attack is too iconic to remove. Leave it as it is.
    Like how short and direct you are in your comment
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Did Blizzard not test that out with the Monks in MoP Beta and found out that it felt really wierd? Im actually curious about this.
    This is correct. They tried it out but people didn't love it, as clever as it was, so they reverted to a more standard design.

  17. #117
    Auto attack was just moved back to being a main portion of DPS; It's why haste is highly valued for most melee builds along with shorter ability cooldowns.

    I doubt they will change it. Many people are clamoring for a return to Vanilla (ish) combat and a more RPG feel. Gcd change was partially due to that as well.

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