Auto-attack Outdated?

[yamix]

Watch any WoW youtube video, PvP and PvE, and look at the action bars. You endlessly see a button being bashed until it triggers the ability associated with then the player moves on to the next button to do the exact same thing...it clearly shows the player bashing a button while waiting for GCD to end...

I do it sometimes too, but not because I want more buttons to press, but often when I'm not sure my ability will go off (movement, some resources need to Regen, etc).

It's not because I'm bored and need a useless button to manually auto attack.

[Super Kami Dende]

Most can agree that tab targeting / GCD based combat feels slow and is outdated in comparison to action combat.
Instead of the auto-attack we currently have, what if WoW had an active weapon attack ability that is not affected by the game's GCD that can act as a filler in between other abilities? Would that create the illusion of a faster paced / more fun gameplay?

The illusion? maybe. But the actual feel? not likely.

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Watch any WoW youtube video, PvP and PvE, and look at the action bars. You endlessly see a button being bashed until it triggers the ability associated with then the player moves on to the next button to do the exact same thing...it clearly shows the player bashing a button while waiting for GCD to end...

Mostly due to Latency correction and ability queuing.

[Raugnaut]

It's not "tiny", and it has been the pick in the past as well sometimes. 5% on your most damaging abilities is pretty good, especially when the talent also allows you to cast way more of them.

So, the +5% damage on the finishing moves was only added in BfA, precisely because it was underpreforming. Even in the past, SotF was NEVER considered a better pick over Savage Roar - However, Savage Roar was nerfed quite a bit this expansion from 30% pure damage boost from Legion (Worth using), to 10% damage boost and 10% energy regen (If it was Haste, it would have been better, but energy regen ONLY increases the number of Shreds and FBs you can put out, and Shred's damage is so low without significant Azerite support that it's not worth).

So, eh. SotF is now only the pick because of significant nerfs to the other talents in the tree in the name of "balance"

[LilSaihah]

Should play GW2 instead maybe? Autoattacking is a specific thing you use rather than being just white damage that happens irregardless of what you do.

[Rucati]

WoW can easily be made to feel like an action combat game by changing all single target attacks into frontal AoE attacks not requiring a target. I think the game needs more of these, especially for melee classes.

Wow I've read a lot of really stupid ideas on the forums in the past, but this one takes the cake.

Yeah let's make the entire game completely braindead where you mash your AoE button because who wants skill to matter? While we're at it, we should really just make every mob in the game have 1 health so the gameplay feels really fast paced since everything dies quickly. We should also probably have everyone moving 10x faster, wouldn't want people to accidentally fall asleep in the five nanoseconds between pulls now, would we? Actually maybe just remove mobs from the game, it would probably be more fun to zone into an instance and just be handed free loot don't you think? Does WoW even need combat?

I mean god damn what an absolutely idiotic idea.

[op3l]

So basically you have to spam another button repeatedly over the entire fight to do what is currently an automatic attack...

[Shaetha]

I like to give Star Wars: The Old Republic is an example - no auto attack for any spec. I find the combat far more dynamic and enjoyable there compared to WoW. (alas the game has other fundamental flaws)

Auto attack is not needed right now without changing anything in WoW. All classes that got it already have rotations, priorities and fillers. None is designed to right click a target and AFK. Auto attack is something that is invisibly happening on the background of your main combat abilities and it makes no sense.

A Paladin with lower haste and bad azerite has gaps in their rotation where they can do nothing but wait cooldowns and watch the auto attack - but that is bad design, not a reason to need auto attack. Same for BM Hunter where 60% of the damage comes from the pet and auto attack.

If there were ever an overhaul to the combat and class systems in WoW removing auto attack should be a staple. But it seems with Shadowlands they are willing to go backwards in class design, instead of leading the MMO charge from the front.

Nothing SW:ToR's combat offers is in any way different from any class that is GCD locked in WoW. If you want to be GCD locked play a class that offers it. There are lots of them. Some people don't want that. Stop trying to remove play styles people like to add nothing. It's incredibly selfish.

[Blackmist]

I think it was monks that were supposed to be designed without an auto-attack, but they added it back in because they had no idea how to make that actually work and be balanced.

I'd be all for removing it and having all your actions be manual. The auto attack is no longer relevant. All weapon speed was normalised. Your regular movement and spells don't interrupt your swing timers as of like Wrath I think, it's now a relic.

[Trumpcat]

Nothing SW:ToR's combat offers is in any way different from any class that is GCD locked in WoW. If you want to be GCD locked play a class that offers it. There are lots of them. Some people don't want that. Stop trying to remove play styles people like to add nothing. It's incredibly selfish.

Every single spec needs constant proactive and reactive input. The auto attack is nothing but a passive number going on the background which has no relation to the gameplay. It is not a playstyle, because there is no play involved. What's actually selfish is attacking people that ask for a more fluid and engaging design.

[Tradu]

So, the +5% damage on the finishing moves was only added in BfA, precisely because it was underpreforming. Even in the past, SotF was NEVER considered a better pick over Savage Roar - However, Savage Roar was nerfed quite a bit this expansion from 30% pure damage boost from Legion (Worth using), to 10% damage boost and 10% energy regen (If it was Haste, it would have been better, but energy regen ONLY increases the number of Shreds and FBs you can put out, and Shred's damage is so low without significant Azerite support that it's not worth).

So, eh. SotF is now only the pick because of significant nerfs to the other talents in the tree in the name of "balance"

Savage Roar used to be baseline, so SotF wasn't always competing with it. Obviously the reason it's currently better than the other options(generally, although Incarn has some theoretical use cases) is that the other options do less damage. Feral is undeniably higher paced than in the past(with a few other abominations as exceptions, like HFC and Antorus, because for some reason invalidating energy specs' resource in the last tier is something Blizzard loves doing)

[Schizoide]

Autoattacks serve a purpose. A primary differentiating factor between new and adept players is ABC, Always Be Casting. Newbies don't spam their buttons, and those half-seconds where you aren't casting add up quick. If 50% of your total damage comes from autoattacks, the difference between low/high skill is reduced a bit. Autoattacks also help when you're facing a lot of either network or server lag; that's 50% of your damage that always goes off.

I've always had a quality internet connection so network lag has never been an issue, I'm never over 80ms ping, but server lag has been terrible lately.

[FAILoZOFF]

No auto-attacks? Can't possibly imagine how that would even work. /s
Its not like we have like 15 (literally every single caster, excluding paladins and monks healers) specs out of 32 that get away, without it - somehow.

[yamix]

No auto-attacks? Can't possibly imagine how that would even work. /s
Its not like we have like 15 (literally every single caster, excluding paladins and monks healers) specs out of 32 that get away, without it - somehow.

The original post was about an off gcd ability to replace Auto attack, not just removing it. It's a different discussion. I had to stop playing gladiator because it had this design in the form of rage dumping heroic strike off GCD, after a couple hours my wrist would hurt like hell, and the APM was crazy this style of game.

[Alanar]

So basically macro auto attack to every ability.

Or just use that ability and auto attack starts automaticly.. like it works right now.

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No auto-attacks? Can't possibly imagine how that would even work. /s
Its not like we have like 15 (literally every single caster, excluding paladins and monks healers) specs out of 32 that get away, without it - somehow.

Look at swtor, classes have a basic slash like a filler type of idea that is free.. that combat system(minus the lag felt great)

[FelPlague]

Ah the typical fanboy response.

"But it was always like that."

No. It wasn't. Sure at different times in the games 15 year old life cycle white hits where a larger source of your damage.

But there was never this amount of RNG involved in the way your class actually plays.

"Your attacks have a chance to ______."

"Your attacks have a chance to ______."

"Your attacks have a chance to ______."



Did you even look at the linked picture? Over 55% of the players damage came from an RNG passive source. Something that he/she had zero input over.

"Your attacks have a chance to _____" has been a huge thing since vanilla, as part of classes, as part of abilities, and as part of items.

Windfury, dont forget windfury "oh im gunna fight this shaman, and he just hit me 5 times at once and im dead"
Dont forget stuff like crit, where warlock would do like 1/10th your health per shadowbolt, but then BOOM CRIT and you drop half health in 1 hit.
And then class abilities too.

Man look at all these RNG based effects, and this is JUST druid talents. i havent even gotten to their spells, or the many other classes. all of this in vanilla, then pair that with gear like trinkets, weapons, and some rare items. then pair that with enchants ontop like weapon enchants and the such.

yes, there has always been "I have like 5 things procced right now, i have no control, so i just do my rotation, and try to pop my CD's when i have the most procs up"

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Good shit dude. Don't make statements like "the game has always been like this" then. It's just not true, is it?

A small amount of RNG in class mechanics/rotations is fine.

Over 50-70% in some cases? No. No thanks.

In a game where I am striving to get the most out of my character. You know - an RPG. I don't want every single attempt on a boss to deviate by 20-30% because of shit I have absolutely zero control over.

"Small amount" RNG procs has never been a small amount.

[czarek]

Most can agree that tab targeting / GCD based combat feels slow and is outdated in comparison to action combat.
Instead of the auto-attack we currently have, what if WoW had an active weapon attack ability that is not affected by the game's GCD that can act as a filler in between other abilities? Would that create the illusion of a faster paced / more fun gameplay?

WoW can easily be made to feel like an action combat game by changing all single target attacks into frontal AoE attacks not requiring a target. I think the game needs more of these, especially for melee classes.

Edit:
The idea is that you're already spamming the button of your next rotation ability, except nothing is happening so you keep bashing the button until GCD timer ends. Instead of bashing a button without anything happening, why not switch to an off GCD ability while waiting for GCD timer to finish. Wouldn't it make for a more interesting, non repeatable mindless pattern of 1, 2, 3, 4 rinse and repeat? Have the off GCD spammable ability be weak but trigger combos that are different every now and then and get rid of exact rotations...dynamic game play would make it more interesting imho instead of 1,2,3,4 or 1, spam, 2, spam, 3, spam...etc

??? WoW actually is action combat spam button game as hell u want make it more ? I dont want to make combos like in mortal kombat with no cd. That would be just like trash mobile game and tbh with no cd u can do basicly 1 macro and spam 1 button...

[Dalinos]

"Your attacks have a chance to _____" has been a huge thing since vanilla, as part of classes, as part of abilities, and as part of items.

Windfury, dont forget windfury "oh im gunna fight this shaman, and he just hit me 5 times at once and im dead"
Dont forget stuff like crit, where warlock would do like 1/10th your health per shadowbolt, but then BOOM CRIT and you drop half health in 1 hit.
And then class abilities too.

Man look at all these RNG based effects, and this is JUST druid talents. i havent even gotten to their spells, or the many other classes. all of this in vanilla, then pair that with gear like trinkets, weapons, and some rare items. then pair that with enchants ontop like weapon enchants and the such.

yes, there has always been "I have like 5 things procced right now, i have no control, so i just do my rotation, and try to pop my CD's when i have the most procs up"

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"Small amount" RNG procs has never been a small amount.

Wow dude, just wow. Ok, I will take the time to answer every single line of bullshit you just spouted.

The first 2 green paragraphs are, for those who didn't instantly recognise them, the procs of SULFURAS and THUNDERFURY. You know, the procs of LEGENDARIES. That guilds needed MONTHS to farm, craft and complete. They are allowed to be OP, they're fucking LEGENDARIES.

Now, on to the druid talents. Starting from top left and moving to bottom right, you've included Nature's Grasp (which is a talent that does NOT stay at 35%, it goes to 100%, making it an actual activated ability), Improved Entangling Roots (why the fuck would you mention this when talking about procs?) which also goes to 100% with 3/3, Omen of Clarity (sure, 1st RNG Chance on Hit that is a talent, that's the 1st one). Then, 2nd row, we move to (for some reason) 1/5 Improved Starfire, which goes to -0.5 (to be in line with Imp Shadowbolt/Frostbolt/Fireball) and a 15% chance to stun (ok, 2nd RNG chance on hit that is a talent, that's 2 now). Nature's grace is NOT a proc, it is NOT a "chance on hit", it happens ON EVERY SPELL CRIT, so it has 100% chance of occuring. The RNG part is critting, not the talent itself.

Then you go on to list Feline Swiftness? Again only 1 point in it though, at 2/2 it reads +4% dodge +30% movement speed. How that is a proc, god knows. Then the next on the list is MOONKIN AURA? WHAT? That's not a proc, that's an AURA. Same with Leader of the Pack. What? How are the 2 iconic druid auras procs? Because they add crit? And critting is a "passive proc"? Let's move on...

You then list the Bear and Cat talents that generate combo points and extra rage on crits, but fail to put TWO talent points in them to bring them up to 100%. It's NOT 50% chance each, it's 100% chance each, making them...guess what...class mechanics, NOT procs. You then list Furor...with 1 point in it. It's not 20% chance to gain resources when you shapeshift, it's 100%, when you put 5/5 talent points in it. The 14% chance to reduce interruption while casting also goes to 70%, to bring it in line with other healers pushback protection. Lastly, you list Insect Swarm, that adds 2% chance to MISS on the boss...so...there's your 3rd RNG proc? I guess? and you also list Improved Regrowth (again at 1/5), which noone ever takes because Regrowth in Raids on Classic is very very situational.

You are dishonest, pulling at straws, and what's worse, you're using MY favourite class's talents to do so. Begone with you. I always saw people mention how "Felplague is delusional" and didn't understand what they meant, now I do.

On Topic: Auto-attack is too iconic to remove. Leave it as it is.

[Tradu]

big screenshot dump

Why do people always jump to (garbage) comparisons to Vanilla? There's 6 expansions between then and now, and none of them have given the player as little control over their damage as corrupted gear.

[Dalinos]

Why do people always jump to (garbage) comparisons to Vanilla? There's 6 expansions between then and now, and none of them have given the player as little control over their damage as corrupted gear.

The guy posted no less than 15 mini-screenshots of weapon procs and incomplete talent tooltips...only to mention three distinct, actual PROCS, that the player has no control over (Omen of Clarity, Improved Starfire Stun proc and...Insect Swarm, which is a long-shot). Truth of the matter is: In Classic, if the Mage does not hit Frostbolt, he is doing 0 dmg. If the warlock is not hitting Shadowbolt, he is doing 0 dmg. If the moonkin is not hitting Starfire, he is doing 0 dmg. The ONLY "passive dmg" Moonkins get is...Moonfire DoT, which is not supposed to be used in raids due to debuff slot limitation.

[Alkizon]

Old paladins and shamans would want to have a word with you.

First of all "auto-attack" system isn't outdated, it's just different of something you "want". This is separate system that have own dis/advantages, that's all. I see no point or reason in such heated discussion.

Returning to the first sentence, such system helps a lot with direct/hybrid supports in their difficult work and allows system to have variable types of gameplay, and not just buttons'-spam-fighting-alike one. It’s already mentioned that there is kind of tab-target without auto-attack in swtor, but this is only half of it, auto-attack allows even classes with active basic damage (hunters, rogues, warriors) to play from haste/hit/expertise stats (while one part of them plays from yellow damage in form of burst, the other one do from tunnel damage of a more "smeared" style).

So, you're wrong, this is different style, different system, that's all... your personal rejection of this doesn't play any role in this matter. I understand that they, due to their unhealthy stupidity, loaded it with number of completely inappropriate systems (refers to characteristics&itemization systems), which have audacity to nonchalantly invade "class" area, but! This isn't mistake/outdate of original systems, no no, this is just mistake and incompetence of people who are working with them now and you'd better talk about exactly that... humph *hopeless hand wave*

Tradu
Not sure why you quoted me or even what you're trying to say.

mmm. Sorry forget to delete quote, initially addressed to OP, focused on message instead of correcting beginning. Yours one was probably the last in the list at the beginning of writing mine, and given the device used, it’s usually faster "Reply With Quote" for me when working with forum interface, sorry again. And about understanding...

Key points: auto-attack isn't outdated, just different; being integral part of overall working system, also happen as indicator of errors in case of its incorrect operation.