Do raiders think dungeons are beneath them?

[Shinra1]

Dungeons are for players who are bad at raids.

[vsb]

I think 15+ is a hell of alot harder on every group member than mythic raids. Unless you mean harder as in scraping together a group that can follow tactics. Individual skill requirements much higher in M+. Healing/tanking especially.

This is not correct. +15 is something on heroic level or slightly below. Mythic raid level is from +18 to +25 (from first boss to last, as they differ tremendously in difficulty level).

[HCLM]

Dungeons are for players who are bad at raids.

Dungeons are for people who dont like waiting when 19 other people take their time learning how to stop dying on every mechanic.

[Polarthief]

People think a Mythic raiding team means they're a god at dungeons and high IO makes people think they're so ready to mythic raid, when TBH they're two very different aspects of the game, almost like PvP is to both of them.

[Jester Joe]

15s are casual content you can boost or bring undergeared alts in(and you don't even need to time them to get the most relevant reward), they're really here just to gear up, it's not comparable to the last mythic bosses where pretty much any personal mistake leads to a wipe and dps/healing requirements are pretty harsh, so yeah +15s aren't really relevant to any advanced raider and they'll likely perform way better than an heroic raider spamming keys all day tryharding to get 2k rio even if their own io is really low.

Really high keys (20+) are something else, but it's way more about knowledge and cheesing than actual gameplay, they're a content of their own with virtually no reward since titanforging has been removed.

At the end of the day if you think a +15 and clearing mythic are even comparable you're just delusionnal.
As for pugs, as for any content the expectations have to be pretty high to have a reasonnable chance to complete the key given the average level of players(and the amount of dps queuing when you're creating a group for a 15+), so if you're not playing a fotm class and/or have a high score you're never gonna get invited, but that's what guilds are made for.

A 15 is not casual content.

With your links in your own signature, it's obvious you're an accomplished raider, but you really shouldn't make such short sighted claims when you're not even doing many +15s yourself.

You can make the claim that they're not worth your time, but the investment is obviously not there to make a comparison. It's really not any better than people comparing +15s to later mythic bosses.

[ID811717]

A 15 is not casual content.

With your links in your own signature, it's obvious you're an accomplished raider, but you really shouldn't make such short sighted claims when you're not even doing many +15s yourself.

+15 is a casual/alt level content from an actual mythic raider's perspective (but possibly not for someone who's stuck at 3rd mythic boss each tier).

People think a Mythic raiding team means they're a god at dungeons and high IO makes people think they're so ready to mythic raid, when TBH they're two very different aspects of the game, almost like PvP is to both of them.

That is true, but for the most part +15 is still trivial for mythic raiders (+20 and above is where their general PvE skills and gear might not carry them so easily anymore), and heroic&early mythic raiding is trivial for high IO players (say, those that are 3k+ right now). I have seen exceptions in both ways, but they are so rare they just serve to prove the point. (But then, I'm just stating the obvious here. If you're in 1% of playerbase in one type of content, obviously it somewhat translates to less hardcore difficulties of other content types).

[Nite92]

Tbh I’m hesitant to invite someone with really high io because as soon as there’s one bad pull they are more likely to leave. Had a 16 kr this week, dropped it to a 15 when someone left. 4 manned the 15 when the new person left (we had one wipe to the trash after the first boss)

The better people you invite, the higher the expectations... seems kinda obvious to me.

And yes, one pull is too soon, BUT if you invite someone who has done all keys at 17/18, to a +12 "quick run", you advertise a certain thing. If you cannot live up to that advertisement, and say wipe 3 times, you cannot really blame someone for leaving. They agreed to join a "quick run", which is atleast +2 imo, and they got a wipe fiesta which doesnt finish in time.

[Jester Joe]

+15 is a casual/alt level content from an actual mythic raider's perspective (but possibly not for someone who's stuck at 3rd mythic boss each tier).

It doesn't matter what "actual mythic raiders" think though.

Factually speaking, it's not. It's something a small amount of the community can actually reach and accomplish. Dividing the already more hardcore content into "well, that's casual for hardcore!" is just silly nitpicking and condescendingly silly.

[h4rr0d]

Tbh low io leaders are the worst, usually want a free boost and only invite meta classes or super high rio applicants.

I had a guild group of 4 and none of us had a 15 key, we queue into someone's 15 where he's solo with his 1,2k r.io, and declined. Then he requeued the group so not that he had better offers, lol. In the end I had to log an alt that had a 15 key and we timed it np.

Also saw people asking for warrior tank (only) for +15, lol. Any tank class can do +15, and I would say there's even less disparity between tanks at that level than healers (disc is handicapped against bursting / grievous imo, and shaman lacks single target cd). I mean surely you won't need crazy spell reflect tricks to time that +15 or is your dps so low you're trying to compensate, made me think.

Shadow priest I can see the prejudice against, it's the same with warlocks and other specs that lack burst aoe. Especially since dps are queuing in droves so there's nearly always a better option (assuming we know nothing of the player skill just class / ilvl / rio, which is the case of pugs).

But I must say I pugged a freehold this week and holy shit first time I saw a warlock pug that kept up on dps with 2 rogues that were the other dps. And he wasn't even carried by "op corruptions" majority of his damage were class abilities.

I didn't really think that healers are in such abundance, I thought they were similarly low supply as tanks.

The main thing is, at this time in point, 15s are a joke for any serious premade and are already outgeared. Last week we timed siege 16 after 1dps killing the first boss from like 30%, many, many deaths and having to return to kill some more trash from 3rd boss. Group was feral, hpala, ele, lock (not sure spec) and fury.

Healers are much more abundant than tanks.

[potis]

+15 is a casual/alt level content from an actual mythic raider's perspective (but possibly not for someone who's stuck at 3rd mythic boss each tier).

That is true, but for the most part +15 is still trivial for mythic raiders (+20 and above is where their general PvE skills and gear might not carry them so easily anymore), and heroic&early mythic raiding is trivial for high IO players (say, those that are 3k+ right now). I have seen exceptions in both ways, but they are so rare they just serve to prove the point. (But then, I'm just stating the obvious here. If you're in 1% of playerbase in one type of content, obviously it somewhat translates to less hardcore difficulties of other content types).

Terms widely used to fit one category when it doesnt work like that, but you kinda saved it with the last sentence.

"High IO" or "Mythic Raiders", are just terms.

Someone that gets cutting edge the first month, aka top 20-30 material, cant be bad, and more than luckily he spammed the shit out of 15s for gear early on or TFs, or corruption now, he couldnt give a rats ass about IO, maybe after progress, so he can goof around and say he has 3k+ IO.

Someone that has 3k+ IO the first month, cant be bad, they dont raid Mythic? Unlikely, but even so, if you make them too, give them 1-2 tries, they will still play better the 2nd/3rd try than 99% of the WoW population.

Its all down to the environment/level you play around.

The problem is, that those are the 0.1%. maybe 0.5% (1% is being way too generous ) there is a massive population of delusional shitty ass "I do Mithyc RAIDUR" players that are literally what the OP is talking about, and the first 2 months of each new patch cycle is where its most obvious.

You know, the 1.8-2k IO (last season) with exact number of bosses where the raid actually starts requiring 5 buttons (For EP as example, there were so many 3/X cause Ashvane was too much for the majority of pugs/shit tier players) etc etc.

And this active season, the first month, some sort of <most bosses apart from curve> +first boss Mythic, 1k IO "Timed runs 15+ 0 or 1", yet "MYTHIC RAIDUR".

People simply cant use the tools they are given, raider.io gives so much information, but people simply cant use it.

[DeusX]

I just don't like M+ that much, even though I like raiding. I do M+ because of:
1. gear (you can get BIS trinkets, weapons and whatnot, depending on class and spec)
2. fun with guild mates (after all the solo farming reputation bullshit, some team play is fun, though I am not a very frequent presence in the guild M+ groups because after all the farming I don't have that much time left to play, so I am not that good)

Now you decide about the skills. M+ fanboys will keep saying M+ uber alles, but I know guilds like mine with 3-4 Mythic kills in Ny'alotha while many guild member are running M+ 15-18, looting many 465-475 piece of gear. So it's not so hard to see what's harder.

I sometimes wonder how the raiding gear set of such a player would look like if M+ equipment could not be used in raids. Double-lol-rofl-gg.

[Marrilaife]

The main thing is, at this time in point, 15s are a joke for any serious premade and are already outgeared.

Yeah but people are talking about pugs. Most mythic guilds that are above 5/12 atm could just take nearly any 1/1/3 setup cut out of a raid team and if they have a +15 key they can do it no problem. Maybe some really bad setups wouldn't time it, but for example my guild group had ele shaman healing in resto and he was complaining doing tyranical bosses as resto shaman is awful and in the end nothing bad happened because high dps group mitigates most problems.

But nowadays if you install r.io addon you'd see a lot of people who list +15 key probably have it through sheer luck or maybe boost. Ofc the level of that group will be different. I mean leaders that didn't even finish heroic raid and their r.io profile is like "best run +14 on something, best run for this dungeon +11".

And what bothers me is when these people want to invite only 3k+ score players. So basically get themselves carried.

I have nothing against 3k r.io groups where everyone is on the same page and they're like "we casually +3 this dungeon", in the same manner I have nothing against a guy who is 470+ and has curve to demand that for his "heroic zerg run", but majority of the so called "fast / quick / zerg / gogogo" runs are advertised by some undegeared and underexperienced leader who just tries to piggy back on players who are much more progressed than him.

Like I pugged normal Nyalotha on some alt and "leader" didn't even know tactics for bosses and other people had to explain what to do. I ended up having to explain the whole Raden fight because you still have to do mechanics even on normal on this boss. There goes the belief that "people don't wanna make their own groups because they're scared of responsibility and having to lead", half the leaders in pugs don't lead for shit.

Not even mentioning in m+ with no voice comms there's no room for "leading" anyway. But somehow there's a general shortage not only of tanks and maybe healers, but groups in general. And that makes room for asshole leaders to still be accommodated instead of drowning in the sea of choice for better groups.

[Sofo1]

Thinking something is beneath you is a personal trait and can't be applied to the raiding scene as a whole.

[Muffin the Manslayer]

As a cutting edge raider that doesn't like the m+ community in general (most in my experience are toxic shitters) i typically only do keys when i'm bored or for weekly and +15's with a group of 475+ players are really not difficult.

I personally don't feel as if dungeons are beneath me, they tend to serve a purpose early in the tier for farming titanforges/corruptions and then become side content.

[Mokuna]

A 15 is not casual content.

With your links in your own signature, it's obvious you're an accomplished raider, but you really shouldn't make such short sighted claims when you're not even doing many +15s yourself.

You can make the claim that they're not worth your time, but the investment is obviously not there to make a comparison. It's really not any better than people comparing +15s to later mythic bosses.

It's casual in the sense literally anyone who actually plays the game (meaning has rank 3 essences and decent gear) can get in, the dps requirement to complete a 15 in time, even with sloppy pulls and deaths is well below what players with 450 to 460 gear should be able to pull playing well, and you can see that joining 15 pugs, players who have completed multiple 15s (sometimes a lot) still failing at playing their specs properly, interrupting, dispelling,

And you're right saying i don't do many 15s, or even time them, because i have no reason to do them other than my weekly other than the 1 in hundreds chance i get a proper item with a corruption that would actually be an upgrade and i usually help low geared friends or alts to do their weekly, but i'd still be able to boost 15s with no issue whatsoever playing with mains, and so can most players that cleared at least half of mythic nyalotha by now

Top M+ groups can do 15s in 10 to 12 minutes depending on the keys, a lot of people are selling 15s boosts, this isn't hardcore content by any means or metric, sure this isn't world quests and you can easily die in a 15, but at the end of the day there is no entry bar and a lot of groups just complete 15s with randoms all day with no coms or synergy whatsoever

[Oopsmezedya]

mythic raiders bringing up "dps" like that is the key variable to completing mythics on time, this is why mythic raiders get shunned from high level M+ content

[schwank05]

I prefer 5 mans just heroic or maybe Mythic+0 wish we had a badge system like in WOLTK so you could just spam dungeons and gear out alts it worked great.

[callipygoustp]

When forming raids, I decline anyone that has run a dungeon.

[Jotaux]

A 15 is not casual content.

With your links in your own signature, it's obvious you're an accomplished raider, but you really shouldn't make such short sighted claims when you're not even doing many +15s yourself.

Why would they do 15s beyond the one per week. I never go into LFR, but if it gave me a 475 corrupted piece every week I probably would. Mythic+ is quite frankly beneath them.

[Jester Joe]

It's casual in the sense literally anyone who actually plays the game (meaning has rank 3 essences and decent gear) can get in, the dps requirement to complete a 15 in time, even with sloppy pulls and deaths is well below what players with 450 to 460 gear should be able to pull playing well, and you can see that joining 15 pugs, players who have completed multiple 15s (sometimes a lot) still failing at playing their specs properly, interrupting, dispelling,

And you're right saying i don't do many 15s, or even time them, because i have no reason to do them other than my weekly other than the 1 in hundreds chance i get a proper item with a corruption that would actually be an upgrade and i usually help low geared friends or alts to do their weekly, but i'd still be able to boost 15s with no issue whatsoever playing with mains, and so can most players that cleared at least half of mythic nyalotha by now

Top M+ groups can do 15s in 10 to 12 minutes depending on the keys, a lot of people are selling 15s boosts, this isn't hardcore content by any means or metric, sure this isn't world quests and you can easily die in a 15, but at the end of the day there is no entry bar and a lot of groups just complete 15s with randoms all day with no coms or synergy whatsoever

You're not going to get a group in the item level range of 450-460 that makes sloppy pulls and wiping actually making the timer for 15s.

It's not nearly as faceroll as you're making it sound at all, and you don't have the experience to be claiming that is what I'm trying to say.

Why would they do 15s beyond the one per week. I never go into LFR, but if it gave me a 475 corrupted piece every week I probably would. Mythic+ is quite frankly beneath them.

"Beneath them" is kinda a hilarious way to put it.
2400 rating only gives 465 as a chance to drop, while also giving 475 gear at the end, is that "beneath" them?