Do raiders think dungeons are beneath them?

[Vinzora]

Not below me, but I'm pissed off that m+ loot complete outshines everything below mythic raid and makes it worthless.

[munkeyinorbit]

mythic raiders bringing up "dps" like that is the key variable to completing mythics on time, this is why mythic raiders get shunned from high level M+ content

They don't get shunned because they are mythic raiders. They get shunned because they are dicks. You would have to be pretty insecure about yourself if you reject players because theyre a mythic raider. I wait until people open their mouth at least before judging them.

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You're not going to get a group in the item level range of 450-460 that makes sloppy pulls and wiping actually making the timer for 15s.

It's not nearly as faceroll as you're making it sound at all, and you don't have the experience to be claiming that is what I'm trying to say.



"Beneath them" is kinda a hilarious way to put it.
2400 rating only gives 465 as a chance to drop, while also giving 475 gear at the end, is that "beneath" them?

Pretty much. At this stage mythic raiders are just fishing for corruption. I doubt people who are actual mythic raiders would be doing much more than the weekly. It's beneath them.

[NatePsy]

I think M+ and Raids are two very different dynamics, I can't count how many times I've ran with raiders who have had no clue in M+, their ability to play well doesn't always transfer over to M+ as well as people think. A lot of factors go into both environments imo. M+ has it's challenge at varying levels of keystone, as does Mythic raiding at certain boss fights. To say one is challenging while the other isn't is either ignorant or just dumb. As a guy that plays both, they have their own challenges.

[Vinzora]

I think M+ and Raids are two very different dynamics, I can't count how many times I've ran with raiders who have had no clue in M+, their ability to play well doesn't always transfer over to M+ as well as people think. A lot of factors go into both environments imo. M+ has it's challenge at varying levels of keystone, as does Mythic raiding at certain boss fights. To say one is challenging while the other isn't is either ignorant or just dumb. As a guy that plays both, they have their own challenges.

The difference is that m+ gives about 3-4x more gear than raiding.

[Jester Joe]

Pretty much. At this stage mythic raiders are just fishing for corruption. I doubt people who are actual mythic raiders would be doing much more than the weekly. It's beneath them.

That isn't how "beneath them" works. Not worth it gear wise? Sure. Beneath? No.

[NatePsy]

The difference is that m+ gives about 3-4x more gear than raiding.

But not at the same item level. 475 base Mythic, which then goes to what? 485 on the last two bosses? Mythic+ stops at 475 and that's only once per week, highest farmable is 465, then the 475 Azerite gear is luck of the draw and to even get specific good ones you need to farm 20k worth of currency to get just one of them. Quantity does not always equal quality, Mythic raiding has it's benefits over M+ while still allowing M+ to remain relevant for those who want an alternative to the schedules of raiding.

[munkeyinorbit]

That isn't how "beneath them" works. Not worth it gear wise? Sure. Beneath? No.

What definition did you make up. If it's not worth doing then it is beneath them.

[dacoolist]

You're not going to get a group in the item level range of 450-460 that makes sloppy pulls and wiping actually making the timer for 15s.

It's not nearly as faceroll as you're making it sound at all, and you don't have the experience to be claiming that is what I'm trying to say.



"Beneath them" is kinda a hilarious way to put it.
2400 rating only gives 465 as a chance to drop, while also giving 475 gear at the end, is that "beneath" them?

I think people aren't understanding that the EASY affix weeks make 15s in time a joke vs trying to actually push past 16s in time etc

As a non THICC raider I find 15's much easier during the easy affix weeks than even heroic (well heroic maybe before everyone had insane essences/corruption), but now that the game is so unbalanced with uneven corruptions pretty much destroys all of the regular content. ANYTHING though above 15, ie 16/17 etc - Those dungeons are MUCH steeper learning curve - I used to run 16's without issue even just last season - this season the jump from 15 to 16 feels much deeper.

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying Jester Bro, but some weeks you gotta admit aren't hard at all with easy affix

[Barzotti]

I think people aren't understanding that the EASY affix weeks make 15s in time a joke vs trying to actually push past 16s in time etc

As a non THICC raider I find 15's much easier during the easy affix weeks than even heroic (well heroic maybe before everyone had insane essences/corruption), but now that the game is so unbalanced with uneven corruptions pretty much destroys all of the regular content. ANYTHING though above 15, ie 16/17 etc - Those dungeons are MUCH steeper learning curve - I used to run 16's without issue even just last season - this season the jump from 15 to 16 feels much deeper.

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying Jester Bro, but some weeks you gotta admit aren't hard at all with easy affix

To add my two cents: I didn't try to do a +15 yet (bad rio score, only pugging, doing only weekly mainly) but I'm healing a weekly on four healer chars between +10 and +13, and the +13 are always easier and smoother than the vast majority of the +10 because there are less terrible players the higher you go. I assume it must be the same for +15? Hell, my harder key this week was a meager +4.

[Kumorii]

What definition did you make up. If it's not worth doing then it is beneath them.

"Beneath" is more negatively charged than "not worth it". Beneath is used more when someone tries to act big or put other people down for doing something.
While something not being worth it is more neutral and describes that X isn't for them but they don't berate or look down on others who do X.

[jzhbee]

I see alot of raiders especially on forums thinking they should be served up a invite to a +15 on a silver platter because they toped dps in a heroic raid or something or have some mythic raiding achievment (that could of just been traded for) whill also having a mediocre IO score, when of course we know this will never happen

I get the suspicion that raiders think dungeons are just "mini raids" even on some very high keys and just because they did the latest nyolotha raid that somehow makes them fit to get a instant invite to a +15 fortified tol dagor on sanguine week, when its furthest from the truth if all you do is raid and only do one +10 a week for the chest, has anyone else seen this type of attitude from raiders especially on forums?

I'm not upset that M+ exists. I liked the concept and execution of Challenge Modes (did both MoP and WoD). I liked the introduction of the harder Mythics in WoD.
I'm glad there's PvE content that you can do consistently, that isn't on a weekly lockout, and doesn't require coordination of many people, which has to be scheduled around.
Dungeons are an important aspect of any MMO, and if a game believes that's not the case, it's a game I don't want to play.

I don't like it when the end-game now feels DESIGNED around M+.
The amount of arguments I've heard against raid exclusive gear that essentially are "Blizzard can't do that anymore, because then M+ players would have to raid."
"How would you feel if there were tier sets locked behind +15 keystones?"
I've seen these arguments around.

I don't hate M+. I hate the vocal community of people who only M+. Sure, raid world firsts are competitive, but I've never raided on such a level. I've finished Cutting Edge achievements, and that's the most I want to ask for.
But I've seen people in the M+ circuit legitimately telling Blizzard not to give raiders content because it hurts the M+ scene, and I'm very upset with it.
Raids (especially Mythic) should give the highest ilvl gear in the game. Full stop. No warforging, no Mythic +15, nothing. Mythic+ may get harder than Mythic Raiding at high keys and I understand that. Clearing those dungeons with a timer is insane. If you asked me to attempt Heartsbane Triad on a +15 Tyrannical week, I'd say to fuck off, I'd prefer doing Mythic Ilgynoth from EN, and that nearly killed my guild in Legion.

Coordinated, 20 man content, is the ultimate PvE experience in WoW to me, and I've seen people asking for Blizzard to suck it dry. So I'm a little put off by it.
I don't believe small group content is as cool, conceptually, as something that requires a large team to do.
25 mans were cooler than 10 mans in Cata, even if, looking back, 10:Heroic was harder than 25:Heroic.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the timer system, and I get that people like the competitive/leaderboard nature of M+. That's fine, it's just not my thing. I do my weekly key to get the weekly piece. I'm okay with that.

I'm really glad dungeons don't get trivialized to the point where nobody wants to do it, and honestly, this may be a better system of incentivization it than Valor and Justice Points (or later, Emblems of Frost/Valor/etc.)

I just wish that it didn't interfere with my preferred PvE experience.

Is that selfish? Absolutely.

But you asked.

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But not at the same item level. 475 base Mythic, which then goes to what? 485 on the last two bosses? Mythic+ stops at 475 and that's only once per week, highest farmable is 465, then the 475 Azerite gear is luck of the draw and to even get specific good ones you need to farm 20k worth of currency to get just one of them. Quantity does not always equal quality, Mythic raiding has it's benefits over M+ while still allowing M+ to remain relevant for those who want an alternative to the schedules of raiding.

tbh I've gotten more upgrades out of M+ than I have raiding. My guild for most of BFA used RCLootCouncil, (which I consented to, and do not in anyway resent), and so most of the time when I got an upgrade it was out of M+ cache.

[skynet1990]

Raiding and M+ is kinda like PVP vs PVE.
You are kind of forced to do both to excel in one or the another, to shine in both is very difficult and somewhat even more time consuming. The big flaw BFA has is in order to push through the Raid in a timely manner on Mythic you need to do M+ as Gearing through Raid would take forever.

[Marrilaife]

To add my two cents: I didn't try to do a +15 yet (bad rio score, only pugging, doing only weekly mainly) but I'm healing a weekly on four healer chars between +10 and +13, and the +13 are always easier and smoother than the vast majority of the +10 because there are less terrible players the higher you go. I assume it must be the same for +15? Hell, my harder key this week was a meager +4.

Yes, the lower you go, the more you start fighting against the stupidity of the playerbase instead of against mobs.

[potis]

To add my two cents: I didn't try to do a +15 yet (bad rio score, only pugging, doing only weekly mainly) but I'm healing a weekly on four healer chars between +10 and +13, and the +13 are always easier and smoother than the vast majority of the +10 because there are less terrible players the higher you go. I assume it must be the same for +15? Hell, my harder key this week was a meager +4.

The higher you go, you find more dedicated people, that actually know how to counter each pack/mechanic properly, they dont need hand holding to everything because they probably had to play a lot more to get their RIO up the way the system works.

They understand the danger and damage scaling of things.

I run a lot of M+ for guildies, every week for their weekly chest, otherwise they wont get one.

My guildies, their brain resets, they forget literally basic things per pack, despite them having cleared 13-15s before and wearing 470 gear, they can even fail a +12-13 with how bad they can play because they simply, i dont know, forget things? I never understand how their brain works, I just call them bad, they are still better than the 90% of the WoW population i guess, but dear god they can play so bad.

Then i push a +17 to 19 with 1 guildie,1 friend of his and 2 pugs, because they know, they interrupt proper targets, they stun when needed, they dont just press 1-2-3 and expects others to do them.

And the lower you go, you have people "THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF HC WOTLK DUNGEONS, THOSE WERE FUN", yeah, the dungeons where 1 out of 30 mobs even did anything and even then you people failed to interrupt it.

[munkeyinorbit]

"Beneath" is more negatively charged than "not worth it". Beneath is used more when someone tries to act big or put other people down for doing something.
While something not being worth it is more neutral and describes that X isn't for them but they don't berate or look down on others who do X.

Now that we know the definition that you made up I can see why you think that. You are still wrong.

"Let's do dungeons"
"Nah, the rewards suck"
"Are you too good for dungeons?"
"Yes, frankly. The rewards aren't worth it. It's beneath me"
"Fuck you. I'm off to MMOC to cry about other players who are better than me"

[Kumorii]

Now that we know the definition that you made up I can see why you think that. You are still wrong.

"Let's do dungeons"
"Nah, the rewards suck"
"Are you too good for dungeons?"
"Yes, frankly. The rewards aren't worth it. It's beneath me"
"Fuck you. I'm off to MMOC to cry about other players who are better than me"

what? Not once did I argue about definitions but how it's often used in conversations and discussions in general and thus have a negative charge to it...
Seems like you can't grasp how languages work. Nor do you even understand what you reply to or you wouldn't have made an argument about definitions since I never tried to "redefine" it, nor that you were wrong in the definition.

Frankly you seem very tilted and angry for absolutely no reason.

[shyguybman]

I don't hate M+. I hate the vocal community of people who only M+. Sure, raid world firsts are competitive, but I've never raided on such a level. I've finished Cutting Edge achievements, and that's the most I want to ask for.
But I've seen people in the M+ circuit legitimately telling Blizzard not to give raiders content because it hurts the M+ scene, and I'm very upset with it.

When they announced Carapace/N'Zoth drop +10 ilvl gear the amount of whining from M+ players was nuts.