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  1. #61
    Do not play FFXIV unless you're prepared to care about the story. The game cares way more about telling a story than it does about being fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    everyone that says telegraphs lag don't realize its all based off their cast bar not the telegraph. and id take loading screens with teleporting over flying for 10 min.
    Depends on the lag. Some things I have to be moving before the cast starts to make it in time with my lag, so no, sometimes it's just lag.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    To be fair, it's non-intuitive. Obviously as a savage raider I'm well used to it and completely fine, but it's definitely not the most intuitive mechanic in game design. They really should design the cast bars and telegraphs and animations to be more simultaneous. It's one of WoW's best features IMO.
    How does it work? I've read the replies here and I don't understand what the system in FFXIV does. It's always felt wrong but I couldn't work out what it's doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I understand that 100%.

    I just wish the class/combat system was a bit different. I hate that as a bLM, we're all the same. Either Crit or SPS builds. And to min/max you have to be at one extreme or the other. I really like the idea of talent systems that you change based on what works best for specific fights etc.
    thats basically my only pain point in the game, other than dx11 issues

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    How does it work? I've read the replies here and I don't understand what the system in FFXIV does. It's always felt wrong but I couldn't work out what it's doing.
    Basically cast ends way before telegraph disappears and the game calculates the damage when cast ends, so even though you might have run out of telegraph 'in time', if you did it after cast ended you'll get full damage. Game having enormous server tick doesn't help either, though it also allows casters to start moving with 0.3s of cast time left and still successfully cast the spell, which is neat for player, but is terrible design in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  5. #65
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    Basically cast ends way before telegraph disappears and the game calculates the damage when cast ends
    I actually don't think this has ever happened to me. The bigger problem seems to be the assumption that the telegraph and opportunity to dodge should last until the damage hits. Instead of getting out of the area, but sometime between when the telegraph ends and the damage hits, and taking damage a second later.

    which, sure, doesn't feel great. I wouldn't call it objectively wrong game design or anything though

  6. #66
    Wished I got into FF14 sooner.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Do not play FFXIV unless you're prepared to care about the story. The game cares way more about telling a story than it does about being fun.

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    Depends on the lag. Some things I have to be moving before the cast starts to make it in time with my lag, so no, sometimes it's just lag.
    well yea if you're far from the servers then idk, nothing you can really do about that besides a vpn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beastiel View Post
    I actually don't think this has ever happened to me. The bigger problem seems to be the assumption that the telegraph and opportunity to dodge should last until the damage hits. Instead of getting out of the area, but sometime between when the telegraph ends and the damage hits, and taking damage a second later.

    which, sure, doesn't feel great. I wouldn't call it objectively wrong game design or anything though
    yea people are just not understanding how the game works. you don't need to sit in a telegraph and try to jump out at the last milisecond. dodge out and back in between gcds.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    yea people are just not understanding how the game works. you don't need to sit in a telegraph and try to jump out at the last milisecond. dodge out and back in between gcds.
    I think the key thing about it most people miss is the weird timing they have. They don't understand they're hit if they're in the effect when the telegraph disappears. Whereas in WoW, for example , the spell doesn't hit until you're actually hit.

    Honestly, that part is indefensible. Yes, I know how it works That doesn't make it feel any better to get hit by something you were visually clear from when you see other players, who can look like they're moving exactly the same way, don't get hit. That is what most people are talking about when they mention the lag, and yes, FFXIV is much worse about that than any other MMORPG I've played.
    Last edited by Shaetha; 2020-03-27 at 02:29 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Ok we're in agreement on the other items then - humor me though, when you say you have other things to do like what exactly are you doing in game that's fun? I'm genuinely struggling. Barring leveling other jobs in old ass content I've seen dozens of times I just can't find much to do that is entertaining.
    What's fun or not is subjective and my point wasn't focusing on that but rather in having more options. I'm sorry but I won't list my specific interests as I'm afraid it could devolve into arguing the validity of certain content being considered fun by someone and I don't think that'll lead anywhere. Rather I'll try to make my point more clearer.

    WoW has whatever wonderful combat people seem to think it has and that's great, but islands, mythic+, raids, WQs, etc, are all, to me, after you learn the mechanics if the content you are doing involves such, just killing things over an over. Some people love it and that's wonderful, but I want more. I know WoW has professions but I don't think anyone is willing to die on a hill defending the engaging gameplay of gathering and crafting in WoW. And there's the DMF which I did like but is only available one week per month.

    I enjoy that in FF I have I have more options, like work on building a TT deck and trying to beat NPCs I haven't yet, or try my hand at Yojimbo again in the Saucer since I'm ashamed to say I've only completed that GATE twice, or god even redoing my apartment with crafted furniture if I happen to feel like it at the moment. Are those things fun to everyone? Probably not, but I appreciate having the options to do something different and potentially fun depending on my mood than just the same grind every week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Ok - let's pivot then. How would you change FF14 to create the ideal system you've outlined some minor and vague examples below, but toss me some specifics.
    I mean which system? If you mean the drops in raiding I don't have much of an issue with it. I don't want this game to make raiding a never ending grind or go the RNG way. If you mean the job system I do wish there was more customization, they clearly do have the tech to make it happen as evidenced by the old cross class actions, old role actions, and currently the BLU spellbook, they could easily add a pool of abilities that players can choose from like talents do in other games, but going into specifics over which kind of talent would work for each different job and how it would change their gameplay would be ridiculously extensive and honestly the devs are paid to figure that out not us lol. If you mean bosses I like the raids in this game but I do think they could use with taking more risks, I'd like to see more Byakkos and TG Cids and less squares suspended in mid-air.

    But overall I still enjoy the game so I wouldn't want to remake it, only some enhancements here and there. Maybe in a few years I'll get bored of what it has to offer and become a huge hypocrite demanding fundamental changes but right now I'm glad it is different. I wouldn't want WoW to change it's raiding to fit FFXIV's either, that game focuses on raiding and offers something it's playerbase enjoys and that's fine. The market has enough raid or die games that I think it can survive with a few not going in that direction. People who want to grind should be going for games that offer that grind instead of wanting to change a game that isn't made for it. And I mean that respectfully to anyone it might apply to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    How does it work? I've read the replies here and I don't understand what the system in FFXIV does. It's always felt wrong but I couldn't work out what it's doing.
    Damage is calculated the second an attack goes off.

    You see a telegraph on the ground where the boss will throw some acid and the boss gets a cast bar. You move out of the the telegraph. The boss cast bar finishes. You move back where the telegraph used to be. The boss throws acid on top of you but nothing happens because the damage was calculated when the cast bar finished, and at that time you were out of the telegraph.

    It's incredibly confusing for a new player, specially one coming from WoW where damage happens together with the animation instead of before it.
    Last edited by Hyral; 2020-03-27 at 02:41 PM.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Do not play FFXIV unless you're prepared to care about the story. The game cares way more about telling a story than it does about being fun.
    It's a final fantasy game first, which is a story driven series. Many people like story, and find the story fun. Fun is subjective and many people find the game fun even if they don't like the story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Do not play FFXIV unless you're prepared to care about the story. The game cares way more about telling a story than it does about being fun.
    It's a final fantasy game first, which is a story driven series. Many people like story, and find the story fun. Fun is subjective and many people find the game fun even if they don't like the story.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by apples View Post
    nothing is worse than shitty anime tropes
    I've watched a lot of anime, and FFXIV has remarkably few JRPG or anime "tropes".

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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    How does it work? I've read the replies here and I don't understand what the system in FFXIV does. It's always felt wrong but I couldn't work out what it's doing.
    Others have kind of explained it but hopefully this makes it painfully clear. There are 3 different things happening:

    1) The cast bar
    2) The telegraph
    3) The animation

    Of these 3 items, you can COMPLETELY ignore the 3rd one. The animation means nothing. The cast bar is your prime directive. Once it snapshots (basically the cast bar completing minus your ping) the game says that's where you were regardless of the telegraph still being live or the animation not physically hitting your character. The telegraph indicates the area of effect, and the cast bar determines your position/incoming damage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    What's fun or not is subjective and my point wasn't focusing on that but rather in having more options. I'm sorry but I won't list my specific interests as I'm afraid it could devolve into arguing the validity of certain content being considered fun by someone and I don't think that'll lead anywhere. Rather I'll try to make my point more clearer.
    Nono, don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to use your fun things to undermine your points. I'm genuinely curious. I know it's subjective.

    WoW has whatever wonderful combat people seem to think it has and that's great, but islands, mythic+, raids, WQs, etc, are all, to me, after you learn the mechanics if the content you are doing involves such, just killing things over an over. Some people love it and that's wonderful, but I want more. I know WoW has professions but I don't think anyone is willing to die on a hill defending the engaging gameplay of gathering and crafting in WoW. And there's the DMF which I did like but is only available one week per month.
    While I agree on raids (and won't even discuss islands as they suck/failed), I have found M+ to be the saving grace, especially if you've pushed keys in any kind of appreciable manner. Some of those keys have been harder to complete than some mythic bosses and it's been a blast trying to do them.

    I won't argue about crafting/gathering, It's pretty widely accepted that FF14's system is at the least deeper, but I DO miss the simplicity of questing/open world content and gathering simultaneously. I don't care as much that I specifically have to choose to gather in FF14, but it's a difference I can respect.

    I mean which system? If you mean the drops in raiding I don't have much of an issue with it. I don't want this game to make raiding a never ending grind or go the RNG way. If you mean the job system I do wish there was more customization, they clearly do have the tech to make it happen as evidenced by the old cross class actions, old role actions, and currently the BLU spellbook, they could easily add a pool of abilities that players can choose from like talents do in other games. If you mean bosses I like the raids in this game but I do think they could use with taking more risks, I'd like to see more Byakkos and TG Cids and less squares suspended in mid-air.
    I was just curious if you had a pain point that you would change and if you had a specific example. For instance rather than a "talent" system in this game I'd rather that's what Materia was used for. I hate that Materia is just a bland stat stick of complete irrelevance (not numerically, it's very valuable, but from a gameplay perspective, it's completely irrelevant).

    Materia could impact specific skills, for instance there could be a support Materia for the PLD Total Eclipse skill that acts as a vortex pulling in mobs more tightly on use, maybe give the effect a small CD. Another one could be on Shield Lob that makes it silence on hit (to pull a pesky caster), and maybe another that causes it to shatter and bounce and hit multiple targets. The idea would be that maybe your belt has 2 support slots and you could put both of these Materia in the belt and now your Shield Lob has 2 additional effects and new functionality. Obviously these effects would need content to support them so I'd couple this with some fundamental changes like mobs having actual scary attacks or effects that require clever use of supporting skills (more prevalent in challenging content, but not absent from lower end stuff).

    I'd couple this idea with the fact that different gear sets might have less Materia slots or different sockets to add to some more interesting itemization. I'm perfectly comfortable with less difficult content having less options/horizontal power (keep throughput limits similar though) as a reward for doing harder content.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    Its optimized for sure but its super boring and not a fun game. I get the feeling people need to try to hype it up to make up for their loss of not enjoying WoW anymore.
    Guess you are one of these guys who just watched random shit and deemed it boring, or you played through and you skipped cutscenes cause 'muh raids'.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I really love FFXIV, mostly.

    But the raid system is far too easy. Everything is very scripted, and once you learn the "dance" it's trivial. It doesn't ever really feel like a real RPG Style boss fight, as nothing is unpredictable.

    And yes, before you scream that I need to do the crazy 30 min ultimate fight. Yes, I've tried it, and its still 100% scripted. But have cleared Savage this expac with zero issues. usually within 2 weeks tops.

    The combat is still a bit slow, and again, everything you do is fairly predetermined. I wish it had more of a random factor in regards to specs, rotations, gear, etc. Everyone doing the same thing makes it feel a bit dull.
    I've never seen anyone ask for more RNG. Still in FF14 in may help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Haha, just had to point out how incredibly ironic that part of your post was. I assume your conclusion is that it's okay for them to come to this thread and try to "put it down", then, since you're doing the same thing about their game in a thread dedicated to a different game? Logic. Let's try to use that in the future, ye?


    Anyway. Personally I'm a big fan of previous FF games (7, 9, 10 are my favs) but FFXIV.. I don't know. The user interface makes me vomit, the graphics are off-putting (kinda like Rift was, but not as bad though. It just looks kinda.. bland? Sort of like, cartoonish-realistic but at the same time a bit bland. And it's annoying that it's REALLY obvious that it's an game made in Asia, if you know what I mean) and (probably due to the horrible UI) it was confusing as to what exactly I was supposed to do. It's probably a good game and all but when something as simple as the UI looks bad, and its something I have to look at 24/7 when playing, it's just not going to work.
    I think all the Bland comes from the FF team putting it on console. If they would have built it as a PC only MMO it would have been a lot better. Just my 2cents.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantombeard View Post
    I've never seen anyone ask for more RNG.
    Variance in encounters and gameplay can be very engaging and significantly raise the skill cap of gameplay.

    *Too much* RNG - or RNG in inappropriate places - can completely ruin a game. But not all RNG is equal.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantombeard View Post
    I've never seen anyone ask for more RNG. Still in FF14 in may help.

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    I think all the Bland comes from the FF team putting it on console. If they would have built it as a PC only MMO it would have been a lot better. Just my 2cents.
    I love basic RPG, RNG. When you play a good JRPG, you kind of "know" what the boss is going to do, you just never know "when". And I'm 100% fine with some basic RNG in relation to gear.

    I do agree that because console was a consideration, that they had to make it easy enough for console players to do all the content. Which they have.

  17. #77
    I wanted to like FF14 and while its storytelling was way better than what WOW had to offer it was lacking in almost every other aspect of the game.
    I do see why some enjoy it but imho it is FAR from being a good MMORPG with very clunky boring gameplay.

  18. #78
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    i love ff14 lots of sexy female lore characters a transmog system like wow and lots more content to do.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    I played it for a month and wasn't really interested in going back. I actually ended up re-subbing to WoW.

    I was starting from scratch and only got to level 20-30 or so, does it get substantially better? I mean, WoW at that level range at least gives you a good idea of what the gameplay is like, and in FF14 it just all felt so clunky. WoW feels like an action game, instant response, where FF14 still feels like queuing up abilities and waiting for them to go off.

    Just my two cents. I'm not against giving it another chance.
    Your class starts coming together at 50, and feels substantially better every 10 levels thereafter as they layer the new class mechanics in from each xpac. It's really not complete until max level though. If you only reached level 20-30 then it sounds like you didn't even unlock your job change yet (which is at 30). You're kind of just playing with a limp stick at that level range.

    Post 30 is when the story starts picking up too. And past 50 is where people tend to get hooked with the story. If you're into the story that is.

    The longer gcd (compared to WoW) does make the game's combat feel slower up front, but as you progress in level you tend to get a lot of off-gcd abilities that you have to weave in. Depends on the class of course, but some get pretty fast paced with all the ability weaving and positionals.
    I also find it makes the game feel more deliberate/less spammy. And gives you an opportunity to time things more explicitly between fight mechanics, if that makes sense. After taking a few year break from WoW and coming back to it after FFXIV, WoW didn't feel "faster", it just felt spammy.
    Kind of like playing a Monster Hunter game for the first time. Sure it feels "slow" at first, but it's fast past and engaging in its own way when you get used to it.

    Honestly unless you're particularly enthused by the world or new to MMOs in general, the early levels in FFXIV have always been a drag. They've made improvements over the years, but it's frankly still a problem.

    Might just not be the game for you though.
    Last edited by Arewn; 2020-03-29 at 01:51 AM.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I was just curious if you had a pain point that you would change and if you had a specific example. For instance rather than a "talent" system in this game I'd rather that's what Materia was used for. I hate that Materia is just a bland stat stick of complete irrelevance (not numerically, it's very valuable, but from a gameplay perspective, it's completely irrelevant).

    Materia could impact specific skills, for instance there could be a support Materia for the PLD Total Eclipse skill that acts as a vortex pulling in mobs more tightly on use, maybe give the effect a small CD. Another one could be on Shield Lob that makes it silence on hit (to pull a pesky caster), and maybe another that causes it to shatter and bounce and hit multiple targets. The idea would be that maybe your belt has 2 support slots and you could put both of these Materia in the belt and now your Shield Lob has 2 additional effects and new functionality. Obviously these effects would need content to support them so I'd couple this with some fundamental changes like mobs having actual scary attacks or effects that require clever use of supporting skills (more prevalent in challenging content, but not absent from lower end stuff).

    I'd couple this idea with the fact that different gear sets might have less Materia slots or different sockets to add to some more interesting itemization. I'm perfectly comfortable with less difficult content having less options/horizontal power (keep throughput limits similar though) as a reward for doing harder content.
    Reminds me of FFIX's system where you'd level a piece of equipment to unlock a passive effect and then you could equip it on your character. But these would modify actions instead, like WoW's old glyphs (which I dearly miss).

    I don't know how feasible it would be to allow materia to change the behaviour of actions like that though. I fear the game's shaky foundations are part of the reason we don't see more customization for jobs, I mean besides Yoshi-P's phobia of "toxic behaviour" that is. But that's kind of why my mind goes straight to talents, since it would be easy to re-use existing systems to accommodate it. BLU has definitely shown it is well within the game's capabilities to allow players to create builds from a pool of abilities, just need to expand it to every job. Then again maybe the materia system can do what you suggest and they've just never tried to expand on it.

    Sorry but I'm not a creative person at all and if I had a carte blanche to do whatever I wanted with the job system I wouldn't have any idea where to begin. I can tell you how a system feels to me and if I like that feeling or not, and maybe how to improve it within its own scope, but I have no idea how to create something new.
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