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  1. #361
    Would rather have harder dungeons than a timer. If I can't get up and grab a drink or get the door without completely sabotaging the run I'm not really interested. I can at least take a piss during trash or between attempts in a raid, there is no concept of pause in M+

  2. #362
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    Why not have both?
    Mode 1: What it is today. Timed, has the ability to reward multiple items, key can push higher per run.
    Mode 2: Not timed, fixed 1 item drop, key advances one step each time to a max ceiling (15, for example), key is "good" for a window (such as 2 hours), where it downgrades one rank if not completed.

    Implement a check-box when you put in the key.
    Timed? Check=Mode1, uncheck=Mode2.
    Add a confirmation window if people are worried they'll pick the wrong one.

    Then, those who want to push to higher keys, farm gear, do whatever, they can still get their gogogo.
    Those who want to take their time, maybe even bring class/specs who aren't part of the current meta, could do un-timed.
    Bonus with Mode2 is that, should someone drop, you can resume with a replacement and steady as she goes.
    If you hit a wall and can't make it, the key will auto-reset/reduce after the available window.

    Obv, needs work/refinement, but it wouldn't be a major overhaul to add one timer for Mode2 (on the key interface), then have a ruleset to limit reward/advancement.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    Outside UK and USA there are other countries with different language, and if you are born bilingual because father is from X and mother from Y, you can grow up learning 2 language that are not English, this can let you play game in different language.

    I know it is hard to understand for alt-right peeps from uk or usa.
    In that case, enlighten us why you for one: Use apparently two different Accounts, and which Languages you play on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imurbandaid View Post
    1) The timer is part of what makes them fun/difficult. The mob health, damage, longer boss fights, and affixes are easily manageable without a timer, but all of them combined with a timer is what makes you have to be pushed to the edge and create good strategy.

    2) No way. You really think you deserve the best gear in the game for being able to CC every pack and pull 1 mob at a time all the way through the dungeon if you wanted at your leisure. Part of the difficulty after all IS the timer. Again, the mob health, affixes, damage, trash packs, and bosses are VERY easily manageable if you could take it at your good old slow pace, but with the time limit combined against all these is why it's difficult and why it's worth such high level gear. If you aren't good enough to beat the timer and upgrade the key you still have the choice to do the key at your own leisure so Blizzard does not deny you that. If you think there should be "lfm +15 slow just to finish for free 475 gear" as the usual, then you are out of your mind.
    To 1:
    This is the Point, for many People (Me Included) the cheap Difficulty from the Timer doesnt make it Fun. There are many people who dont like to have the clock on their Backs.

    To 2:
    There are ways to make it Difficult without the Timer.
    I wouldnt mind it a bit less if it wouldnt feel Punishing to complete the key if its not in time. It could at least stay on the same Level if you dont beat the timer.

  4. #364
    The timer is what makes it challeneging in the first place. Whats the point if you go up + levels if you can just go at your own leisure. The difficulty wouldn't go up.

    Plus if it really bothers you then q up into none timed runs and deal with the fact that your key wont go up.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    If the timer didn't exists yet you could still finish a key in a reasonable amount of time…<snip>
    But see, that's where the rub is. Who's the judge of how much time is "reasonable"? People used to spend upwards of 1-2 hours in dungeons and nobody so much as batted an eye. If players want to speed run dungeons with all the contorted trash skips and whatnot, that's fine, but there's no need for it to be positioned as the default mode. Yes the timer is technically optional, but the game takes your "failure" and thwacks you over the head with it and makes you feel like shit regardless.

    M+ timers should be more like Strat Dead Baron runs and CoT Strat drake runs, where they're truly optional side objectives and not the centerpiece of the content. Making the timer could reward gear currency for a vendor, giving the M+ "pros" who always cream the timer an advantage in being able to circumvent RNG to an extent while everybody else gets loot drops similar to how it is currently.

  6. #366
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjl View Post
    if you are a gamedesigner and you cannot come up with a good idea just put into some shit a time limit and slap a leaderboard on top, stupid people will be happy as shit
    they have come up with a good idea.
    but if you have infinite time, you can easily beat anything, so they put timers on it.
    trash pulls, tell me what trash pulls in any of the dungeons you cant just afk for 10 mins, then timewarp down, and even if you only can kill 1 then wipe, well wait 10 more mins, kill another, then another.

    even the most shitters could do a 20+, it would take em like 6 hours, but they could do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iindigo View Post
    But see, that's where the rub is. Who's the judge of how much time is "reasonable"? People used to spend upwards of 1-2 hours in dungeons and nobody so much as batted an eye. If players want to speed run dungeons with all the contorted trash skips and whatnot, that's fine, but there's no need for it to be positioned as the default mode. Yes the timer is technically optional, but the game takes your "failure" and thwacks you over the head with it and makes you feel like shit regardless.

    M+ timers should be more like Strat Dead Baron runs and CoT Strat drake runs, where they're truly optional side objectives and not the centerpiece of the content. Making the timer could reward gear currency for a vendor, giving the M+ "pros" who always cream the timer an advantage in being able to circumvent RNG to an extent while everybody else gets loot drops similar to how it is currently.
    those 1-2 hour dungeons were also MUCH longer, and wernt hard, just long.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    those 1-2 hour dungeons were also MUCH longer, and wernt hard, just long.
    Maybe I just sucked back then but I remember my groups getting their rears kicked if we weren't careful in both sides of Strat and in parts of Scholo and most of UBRS. Haven't yet leveled my classic char high enough to try them again.

    If nothing else, TBC heroics were very hard unless you were geared to the teeth. Spent a fair amount of time tanking those things…

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    But I don't understand, this already exists.



    If you fail to time a dungeon it doesn't matter how long you take after the fact someone in the group is still guaranteed loot. If you are running dungeons with friends then you all should be on the same level of communication and have a mutual understanding that you're going for completion, not time.


    The timer only exists to make the key go up or down a level, iirc you get more loot for timing, but you don't get no loot for not timing. So I don't see why this warrants a separate mode.
    Correct me If I'm wrong, but aren't you penalized for failing the timer? Doesn't the M+ Key you have downgrade, or force you to repeat, or force you to get a new one? So It doesn't matter what you "agree," there's no method to "level up" to higher M+, regardless of ability to complete,...unless you can do it faster.

  9. #369
    Wouldn't this just lead into everyone having +35 key and meta would change to bursting down pack every 2 mins while watching netflix on other screen waiting cooldowns. Sounds really good game designing. Timer is good,wow needs competitive elements to get younger players interested.

    What you want next? Maybe raid bosses don't reset health because I'm having too much pressure to dodge void for 8 minutes.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by iindigo View Post
    Maybe I just sucked back then but I remember my groups getting their rears kicked if we weren't careful in both sides of Strat and in parts of Scholo and most of UBRS. Haven't yet leveled my classic char high enough to try them again. If nothing else, TBC heroics were very hard unless you were geared to the teeth. Spent a fair amount of time tanking those things…
    But how much of that was the time period and not the dungeon? Look at how some things in Classic are easy compared to the time/difficulty back then. TBC Heroics were not that hard and even geared to the teeth didn't matter. A tank in my guild back then would have to take armor pieces off in order to keep aggro. Mechanics were different not necessarily the difficulty. I could clear Shadow Labs with ease in a good group.
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  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by iindigo View Post
    Maybe I just sucked back then but I remember my groups getting their rears kicked if we weren't careful in both sides of Strat and in parts of Scholo and most of UBRS. Haven't yet leveled my classic char high enough to try them again.

    If nothing else, TBC heroics were very hard unless you were geared to the teeth. Spent a fair amount of time tanking those things…
    It's almost like we don't have this thing called classic that already proved they where in fact a joke...

    Oh wait...

    Comparing even a BC heroic to M+ is quite laughable, let alone vanilla dungeons lmao. There is 0 comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But how much of that was the time period and not the dungeon? Look at how some things in Classic are easy compared to the time/difficulty back then. TBC Heroics were not that hard and even geared to the teeth didn't matter. A tank in my guild back then would have to take armor pieces off in order to keep aggro. Mechanics were different not necessarily the difficulty. I could clear Shadow Labs with ease in a good group.
    BC heroics where only hard if you where stacking melee when the 360 degree cleaves where a thing(this got fixed eventually) or had a shit tank. People remember things being hard because they where either bad, or played with bad players and it wasn't as easy to figure out back then with logs and everything else we have available now.

    Hell, early Cata heroics where way harder then BC heroics even where and even those would be a terrible comparison to M+. The closest thing is challenge modes but they became way too easy with sockets and the right trinkets that by the end of an xpac golding a challenge mode was basically equivalent to +3ing a 5 key.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    BC heroics where only hard if you where stacking melee when the 360 degree cleaves where a thing(this got fixed eventually) or had a shit tank. People remember things being hard because they where either bad, or played with bad players and it wasn't as easy to figure out back then with logs and everything else we have available now.
    Or fell victim to any number of random instant-kill mechanics with no counter.

    For example the boss who mind controlled the whole group, and if you got unlucky your DPS would insta-gib your healer and have your tank down to 50% before the effects wear off.
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  13. #373
    Mythic + is fine as it is. There is no need to change it. You do keys at your key level in any amount of time you want for a reward or you beat the timer to upgrade the key. Asking to remove the timer because you don't like it is asking to remove the actual challenge of the dungeon. I saw a few people suggesting that for a no tiner run that number of deaths should dictate if you get upgraded. That is a horrible idea because a timerless run let's you plan out CC and stack cooldowns meaning you should already be getting few to no deaths until the point that the tank is getting one shot by things. Come up with a way to make the challange equally as difficult as a timed run if you want an option to have it turned off/removed. As is you are only asking to make the content easier.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by iindigo View Post
    Maybe I just sucked back then but I remember my groups getting their rears kicked if we weren't careful in both sides of Strat and in parts of Scholo and most of UBRS. Haven't yet leveled my classic char high enough to try them again.

    If nothing else, TBC heroics were very hard unless you were geared to the teeth. Spent a fair amount of time tanking those things…
    Dont take it the wrong way, but thats just insanely casual combination with very low skill players problems.

    Dungeons were never hard, at any point of the game, neither HC in TBC, neither Cataclysm.

    The 99.9% didnt experience the first iteration of TBC dungeons, because they were nerfed/fixed 2 weeks into the expansion.

    I dont remember all the fixes, the dungeons were already rather easy, just the first time took a bit longer because well, first time in 2007 where people were still actively bad, despite the progression.

    I mean, second boss in Shadow Labyrinth, there were 10-12 Assassins roaming the rest of the trash, with 7-8 of them overlapping patrols, which means the first time you went there and aggroed one, 5-6 more appeared, stunlocking everyone or 1 shotting the healer cause aggro.

    This was fixed down to 5 assassins the second or third week of TBC release.

    Or Auchenai Crypts, the extra spawning mobs, the first 2 weeks, compared to what extra spawns now, it was double that.

    All this was fixed before the majority was even level 70, and even then, they werent hard, just annoying the first time you went there and had to wipe on those packs because "Wtf, why 10 of them suddenly".

    There were many more tiny fixes here and there , but again, even before the fixes, never hard, just had to get a proper approach of things after the first time and the shock at the random amount of mobs spawning at times.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-02-27 at 01:52 PM.

  15. #375
    Stood in the Fire Penegal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamix View Post
    Would rather have harder dungeons than a timer. If I can't get up and grab a drink or get the door without completely sabotaging the run I'm not really interested. I can at least take a piss during trash or between attempts in a raid, there is no concept of pause in M+
    We all would like harder dungeons. They did it in Cata. People cried and they nerfed them. They haven't made hard dungeons since.

    Now, instead of having hard dungeons where you can take 3 hours by using CC on the mobs and pull them 1 by 1, you have dungeons that require you to employ imaginative strategies by using BRs, non-traditional skips, maximize your character's throughput over a longer period of time.

    Also, if you can't remember to go pee before you start a m+ or can't hold it in for like 30-40 mins, maybe you're not old enough (or too old) to play this game.
    Last edited by Penegal; 2020-02-27 at 02:20 PM.

  16. #376
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    Correct me If I'm wrong, but aren't you penalized for failing the timer? Doesn't the M+ Key you have downgrade, or force you to repeat, or force you to get a new one? So It doesn't matter what you "agree," there's no method to "level up" to higher M+, regardless of ability to complete,...unless you can do it faster.
    Except timing has no bearing on whether or not you get a reward nor does it affect loot quality nor the weekly chest.



    So if you don't care for the timer it only matters if you want your key to upgrade, which, if its at 15 or higher there's no point in upgrading it further aside from wanting to test your skills in a timed environment.
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  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    Promotes the tact of "this class or get declined" wow nice

    - - - Updated - - -

    snip


    Imagine with a no timer.
    they would go with this class or decline becuse they want to do the no timed run faster.

  18. #378
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
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    I don't like Mythic plus, it breeds a toxic mentality. Let's do away with that entirely.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    So if you don't care for the timer it only matters if you want your key to upgrade, which, if its at 15 or higher there's no point in upgrading it further aside from wanting to test your skills in a timed environment.
    I don't think the players who take issue with key timer penalties are sitting at +15 or higher. At that rank, almost everybody has perfectly memorized "the program" and can replay it perfectly for runs that finish with time to spare.

    Where the penalty is much more of a problem is at around +7 to +10 and below, where having your key downgraded is a bit of a gut punch, because it means the ladder just got that much taller. Ignoring the timer at those ranks means never progressing, at which point why are you even bothering with M+? If the experience alone is the goal, it'd be better achieved by walking into an M0 half-naked – just like stagnated M+, all the loot is scrapper fodder and at least you don't have the game beating you over the head with your failure.

  20. #380
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    The timer is fine. Maybe it could be extended a little bit for some dungeons, but it's fine.

    Seriously, people are complaining about the timer when all they have to do is get good at the dungeons, learn their rotations and CC, learn which packs give which forces, where the patrols are, and how to handle the affixes. Learn these things and just do the dungeon.

    Oh and OP, please never say 'alot' again. It's not a real word. It's 'a lot'.

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