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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by iindigo View Post
    Maybe I just sucked back then but I remember my groups getting their rears kicked if we weren't careful in both sides of Strat and in parts of Scholo and most of UBRS. Haven't yet leveled my classic char high enough to try them again.

    If nothing else, TBC heroics were very hard unless you were geared to the teeth. Spent a fair amount of time tanking those things…
    It's almost like we don't have this thing called classic that already proved they where in fact a joke...

    Oh wait...

    Comparing even a BC heroic to M+ is quite laughable, let alone vanilla dungeons lmao. There is 0 comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But how much of that was the time period and not the dungeon? Look at how some things in Classic are easy compared to the time/difficulty back then. TBC Heroics were not that hard and even geared to the teeth didn't matter. A tank in my guild back then would have to take armor pieces off in order to keep aggro. Mechanics were different not necessarily the difficulty. I could clear Shadow Labs with ease in a good group.
    BC heroics where only hard if you where stacking melee when the 360 degree cleaves where a thing(this got fixed eventually) or had a shit tank. People remember things being hard because they where either bad, or played with bad players and it wasn't as easy to figure out back then with logs and everything else we have available now.

    Hell, early Cata heroics where way harder then BC heroics even where and even those would be a terrible comparison to M+. The closest thing is challenge modes but they became way too easy with sockets and the right trinkets that by the end of an xpac golding a challenge mode was basically equivalent to +3ing a 5 key.

  2. #382
    Grand Marshal Hottage Hottage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    BC heroics where only hard if you where stacking melee when the 360 degree cleaves where a thing(this got fixed eventually) or had a shit tank. People remember things being hard because they where either bad, or played with bad players and it wasn't as easy to figure out back then with logs and everything else we have available now.
    Or fell victim to any number of random instant-kill mechanics with no counter.

    For example the boss who mind controlled the whole group, and if you got unlucky your DPS would insta-gib your healer and have your tank down to 50% before the effects wear off.
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  3. #383
    Mythic + is fine as it is. There is no need to change it. You do keys at your key level in any amount of time you want for a reward or you beat the timer to upgrade the key. Asking to remove the timer because you don't like it is asking to remove the actual challenge of the dungeon. I saw a few people suggesting that for a no tiner run that number of deaths should dictate if you get upgraded. That is a horrible idea because a timerless run let's you plan out CC and stack cooldowns meaning you should already be getting few to no deaths until the point that the tank is getting one shot by things. Come up with a way to make the challange equally as difficult as a timed run if you want an option to have it turned off/removed. As is you are only asking to make the content easier.

  4. #384
    Challenge modes were better than m+, at least there you had fun special rewards to work towards. Now its just repeat in absurdum.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by iindigo View Post
    Maybe I just sucked back then but I remember my groups getting their rears kicked if we weren't careful in both sides of Strat and in parts of Scholo and most of UBRS. Haven't yet leveled my classic char high enough to try them again.

    If nothing else, TBC heroics were very hard unless you were geared to the teeth. Spent a fair amount of time tanking those things…
    Dont take it the wrong way, but thats just insanely casual combination with very low skill players problems.

    Dungeons were never hard, at any point of the game, neither HC in TBC, neither Cataclysm.

    The 99.9% didnt experience the first iteration of TBC dungeons, because they were nerfed/fixed 2 weeks into the expansion.

    I dont remember all the fixes, the dungeons were already rather easy, just the first time took a bit longer because well, first time in 2007 where people were still actively bad, despite the progression.

    I mean, second boss in Shadow Labyrinth, there were 10-12 Assassins roaming the rest of the trash, with 7-8 of them overlapping patrols, which means the first time you went there and aggroed one, 5-6 more appeared, stunlocking everyone or 1 shotting the healer cause aggro.

    This was fixed down to 5 assassins the second or third week of TBC release.

    Or Auchenai Crypts, the extra spawning mobs, the first 2 weeks, compared to what extra spawns now, it was double that.

    All this was fixed before the majority was even level 70, and even then, they werent hard, just annoying the first time you went there and had to wipe on those packs because "Wtf, why 10 of them suddenly".

    There were many more tiny fixes here and there , but again, even before the fixes, never hard, just had to get a proper approach of things after the first time and the shock at the random amount of mobs spawning at times.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-02-27 at 01:52 PM.

  6. #386
    Stood in the Fire Penegal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamix View Post
    Would rather have harder dungeons than a timer. If I can't get up and grab a drink or get the door without completely sabotaging the run I'm not really interested. I can at least take a piss during trash or between attempts in a raid, there is no concept of pause in M+
    We all would like harder dungeons. They did it in Cata. People cried and they nerfed them. They haven't made hard dungeons since.

    Now, instead of having hard dungeons where you can take 3 hours by using CC on the mobs and pull them 1 by 1, you have dungeons that require you to employ imaginative strategies by using BRs, non-traditional skips, maximize your character's throughput over a longer period of time.

    Also, if you can't remember to go pee before you start a m+ or can't hold it in for like 30-40 mins, maybe you're not old enough (or too old) to play this game.
    Last edited by Penegal; 2020-02-27 at 02:20 PM.

  7. #387
    Dreadlord Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    Correct me If I'm wrong, but aren't you penalized for failing the timer? Doesn't the M+ Key you have downgrade, or force you to repeat, or force you to get a new one? So It doesn't matter what you "agree," there's no method to "level up" to higher M+, regardless of ability to complete,...unless you can do it faster.
    Except timing has no bearing on whether or not you get a reward nor does it affect loot quality nor the weekly chest.



    So if you don't care for the timer it only matters if you want your key to upgrade, which, if its at 15 or higher there's no point in upgrading it further aside from wanting to test your skills in a timed environment.
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  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    Promotes the tact of "this class or get declined" wow nice

    - - - Updated - - -

    snip


    Imagine with a no timer.
    they would go with this class or decline becuse they want to do the no timed run faster.

  9. #389
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
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    I don't like Mythic plus, it breeds a toxic mentality. Let's do away with that entirely.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    So if you don't care for the timer it only matters if you want your key to upgrade, which, if its at 15 or higher there's no point in upgrading it further aside from wanting to test your skills in a timed environment.
    I don't think the players who take issue with key timer penalties are sitting at +15 or higher. At that rank, almost everybody has perfectly memorized "the program" and can replay it perfectly for runs that finish with time to spare.

    Where the penalty is much more of a problem is at around +7 to +10 and below, where having your key downgraded is a bit of a gut punch, because it means the ladder just got that much taller. Ignoring the timer at those ranks means never progressing, at which point why are you even bothering with M+? If the experience alone is the goal, it'd be better achieved by walking into an M0 half-naked – just like stagnated M+, all the loot is scrapper fodder and at least you don't have the game beating you over the head with your failure.

  11. #391
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    The timer is fine. Maybe it could be extended a little bit for some dungeons, but it's fine.

    Seriously, people are complaining about the timer when all they have to do is get good at the dungeons, learn their rotations and CC, learn which packs give which forces, where the patrols are, and how to handle the affixes. Learn these things and just do the dungeon.

    Oh and OP, please never say 'alot' again. It's not a real word. It's 'a lot'.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

    Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.
    The whole purpose of the M+ thing is based on timers. Removing it would be like removing dying from PVPing, or loot from raiding.

    I too don't like any of that, but then I simply ignore it. It's not like I don't have a lot of mounts to farm anyways...
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  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Penegal View Post
    We all would like harder dungeons. They did it in Cata. People cried and they nerfed them. They haven't made hard dungeons since.

    Now, instead of having hard dungeons where you can take 3 hours by using CC on the mobs and pull them 1 by 1, you have dungeons that require you to employ imaginative strategies by using BRs, non-traditional skips, maximize your character's throughput over a longer period of time.

    Also, if you can't remember to go pee before you start a m+ or can't hold it in for like 30-40 mins, maybe you're not old enough (or too old) to play this game.
    Ah, yes, if you have any responsibility that may require your attention for a few moments you shouldn't play. That's a great way to finally put this game in a coffin.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    The timer is fine. Maybe it could be extended a little bit for some dungeons, but it's fine.

    Seriously, people are complaining about the timer when all they have to do is get good at the dungeons, learn their rotations and CC, learn which packs give which forces, where the patrols are, and how to handle the affixes. Learn these things and just do the dungeon.

    Oh and OP, please never say 'alot' again. It's not a real word. It's 'a lot'.
    All of this

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    I don't like Mythic plus, it breeds a toxic mentality. Let's do away with that entirely.
    Yeah, tell yourself that...people don't change because you remove or change features. Nobody is forcing you to play m+. Nobody is forcing you to play with strangers and push keys. People like you are just too lazy to look for like-minded people and have fun because complaining and not overcoming those odds is just waaaay more comfortable.

  16. #396
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easyclassictopkeklel View Post
    Yeah, tell yourself that...people don't change because you remove or change features. Nobody is forcing you to play m+. Nobody is forcing you to play with strangers and push keys. People like you are just too lazy to look for like-minded people and have fun because complaining and not overcoming those odds is just waaaay more comfortable.
    Careful, your elitism is showing.

  17. #397
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    The timer for M+ does not really seem to be a bad idea, its actually pretty good at pushing people forward, while not really being hard to beat for the people, who are "supposed" to beat the difficulty.

    But i will agree, that the PERCEPTION of the timer is having a bad influence on some players. Its a hard problem to deal with really, because you have to play around with how people experience something without really making any changes.

    So instead of removing the timer, maybe try to put in some improvements so the timer does not feel oppresive or something like that. Maybe make it easier to know how many mobs you have to kill or make it clear, that you still get loot despite failing the timer. I guess people are still haunted by old Challenge Modes or M+, where running out the timer was a complete failure, where today it is still quite a victory.
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  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Penegal View Post
    We all would like harder dungeons. They did it in Cata. People cried and they nerfed them. They haven't made hard dungeons since.

    Now, instead of having hard dungeons where you can take 3 hours by using CC on the mobs and pull them 1 by 1, you have dungeons that require you to employ imaginative strategies by using BRs, non-traditional skips, maximize your character's throughput over a longer period of time.

    Also, if you can't remember to go pee before you start a m+ or can't hold it in for like 30-40 mins, maybe you're not old enough (or too old) to play this game.
    The hard dungeons were on the random match making in Cata, THAT was the problem, not their difficulty.

    Fact is, some of us don't like the timer because it leads to alot of elitism, and gogogo gameplay.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Fact is, some of us don't like the timer because it leads to alot of elitism, and gogogo gameplay.
    But quick completions exist even with out timers. Efficiency may be a problem but it is an understandable one. No one likes waiting around when it isn't needed. There is a reason why trash is skipped, short cuts taken, and things are chain pulled even in Heroics. Because it has nothing to do with a timer existing or not. The timer isn't also about "GO GO GO" because reckless rushing can be just as detrimental to a timer as going to slow.

    Also Cataclysm wasn't necessarily hard. I remember hitting level cap early and being able to clear the dungeons just fine. Then a week later it was harder to clear some of them. It really boiled down to skill with the higher skilled players being at level cap faster and the less skilled making them harder once they started to enter the pool. Of course that is just anecdotal. Though did deserve to be nerfed but things are often a matter of perspective that is hard to see if you are on the negative end of an issue.
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  20. #400
    Stood in the Fire Penegal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    The hard dungeons were on the random match making in Cata, THAT was the problem, not their difficulty.

    Fact is, some of us don't like the timer because it leads to alot of elitism, and gogogo gameplay.
    That maybe true but at best it only increases it by an X amount. It was always there.

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