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  1. #561
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    In raiding you can take as long as you want in between bosses and trash packs. There are timers within each fight, but there is not an instance-wide timer. You don't have to complete the entirety of the raid within X hours or instead be punished.

    And you can fail as many times as you want at a raid boss and go back to trying it again, you don't need to start the whole raid instance from scratch.



    Who are you to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be for everyone else?
    Who am i to decide? who are you to decide?
    see how easy that is.
    Blizz decides how easy or hard the game is for people.
    Blizz set the difficulty.
    you want it easier, so you are saying you are the person who gets to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be.
    I disagree, it is fine as is.


    You literally were just speaking to yourself. WHO ARE YOU to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be for everyone else?

    And yes, inbetween raid bosses you can take as long as you like.
    But a raid boss is equivilent to a full M+ clear.
    You need to deal with a progress bar, to clear, you have mechanics to deal with, and you need to do it in a specific amount of time, if you do so, if you beat it, you get loot.
    but already M+ is far easier, again, cause you can take as long as you need and still get loot, you cant do that with a raid boss.
    you cant do 10% of a raid bosses health, then afk till hero is off cooldown, then do another 10%, and keep doing that over and over and over.


    There is no fucking existance of groups that are lfr geared, and go "we will eventually do this mythic boss" but there is TONS of groups who upon a patch releasing, do the hardest possible dungeon, like a +15, with super undergeared charecters, by killing pack at a time, using all their cooldowns, then popping LITERALLY EVERYTHING at dungeon bosses. using tons of brez, and hero every boss.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    All I'm saying is let people turn off the "timer" aspect of the M+ challenge and, in exchange, their M+ experience is altered by resulting in less overall quantity of loot (but still getting loot on completion) as well as keys climbing by only +1 at a time (takes longer to get to higher levels).
    The key going up is to lead progression based on how well you did in the previous run, it's a reward in itself. You're suggesting it should be possible to spend 5 hours in one dungeon, getting through it by the skin of your dick and still be allowed to get loot AND go into harder content (for potentially better loot)? No, that's too much reward for not being good. It's a very bad mentality not only for the game but for everything in life. Rewards should be deserved, failure should not be rewarded, it should be used as motivation to get better so we can deserve the rewards.
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  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Except that initial M+ release is nothing like I "suggested".
    Nowhere did I "suggest" that, should you not complete the dungeon, your key is "dead" and the following run, regardless of outcome, would yield no loot.
    All I'm saying is let people turn off the "timer" aspect of the M+ challenge and, in exchange, their M+ experience is altered by resulting in less overall quantity of loot (but still getting loot on completion) as well as keys climbing by only +1 at a time (takes longer to get to higher levels).
    At any level that matters you key seldom gets more than +1. Sure, if you have a bunch of 2k score people in a 10 they will likely +2 or even +3 that shit, but that is a rare occurrence. You're hardly proposing a significant disadvantage.

    Also, unless you're chain farming M+ early in the season (in which case you don't care much about timers one way or another), the best loot to come out of the system isn't the end of run chest, it's the weelky one with its boatload of AP, residuum, and Mythic-level gear.

    If you turn off one of the core mechanics of M+, your rewards should be far lower. No weekly chest for you. And maybe -5 ilvl to end of run loot. It's not much different from stepping down to a lower difficulty in a raid, which nets you a -15 ilvl penalty, so I think that's a fair bargain.

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But why wouldn't people just turn off the timer to get higher keys? Guaranteed bump with no time limit is better then trying to push and failing. You can't just "turn off timer" and have it still interact with timed Mythic+. Because the timer is the entire reason why Mythic+ is a challenge. Heck most of the affixes are no longer an issue if you have "unlimited" time to counter them.

    Also if non timed runs still boost the keystone why would a failed timed run not also boost the keystone? You would be punishing those who fail a timed run instead of just turning the timer off. You would also have to get less loot from a failed timed run since failed runs are supposed to still have rewards. And a failed timed run is more difficult then a no timer run.
    In my initial post, I said to make effectively two "types", where timed and un-timed are two separate paths.
    The key would only boost on success; if you fail to complete it in the daily lockout (or a smaller window, like 4 hours, whatever it gets defined as), it would still downgrade just like normal, which the only change on completion being just a +1 regardless of performance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    At any level that matters you key seldom gets more than +1. Sure, if you have a bunch of 2k score people in a 10 they will likely +2 or even +3 that shit, but that is a rare occurrence. You're hardly proposing a significant disadvantage.

    Also, unless you're chain farming M+ early in the season (in which case you don't care much about timers one way or another), the best loot to come out of the system isn't the end of run chest, it's the weelky one with its boatload of AP, residuum, and Mythic-level gear.

    If you turn off one of the core mechanics of M+, your rewards should be far lower. No weekly chest for you. And maybe -5 ilvl to end of run loot. It's not much different from stepping down to a lower difficulty in a raid, which nets you a -15 ilvl penalty, so I think that's a fair bargain.
    I would also be fine with the penalty of "not timed" being different.
    If they just make two types (timed, not timed), they can have their own similar, yet different rules in operation, loot, reward, etc etc etc.
    You are already getting less loot because it mimics a failed "timed" run per completed un-timed run, so maybe also limiting the weekly chest in some capacity is also a fair trade, as timed would still yield the best results.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    The key going up is to lead progression based on how well you did in the previous run, it's a reward in itself. You're suggesting it should be possible to spend 5 hours in one dungeon, getting through it by the skin of your dick and still be allowed to get loot AND go into harder content (for potentially better loot)? No, that's too much reward for not being good. It's a very bad mentality not only for the game but for everything in life. Rewards should be deserved, failure should not be rewarded, it should be used as motivation to get better so we can deserve the rewards.
    But isn't getting through by "the skin of your dick" exactly what happens in Mythic raids?
    Do these guilds not spend hours upon hours and attempts upon attempts to down the bosses?

    Look, if someone wants to marathon a 5 hour M+, that's on them.
    But, if they kill the boss, even if by pure miracle, is the boss not dead?

    I'm not saying throw loot at everyone; hell, there's far too much purple rain as it is.
    All I'm saying is let people do an untimed run, let them get less overall rewards (in quantity and quality), and let them fuck off into their own world while the rest of the people who like M+ continue the timed runs and get better overall stuff.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    In my initial post, I said to make effectively two "types", where timed and un-timed are two separate paths.
    The key would only boost on success; if you fail to complete it in the daily lockout (or a smaller window, like 4 hours, whatever it gets defined as), it would still downgrade just like normal, which the only change on completion being just a +1 regardless of performance.
    But why would anyone do a timed run if you can get progression, loot, and basically no failure through a no timer run? The flip side is why would people do a no timer mode if they can get upgrades and progression from timed runs easier? I am not saying there couldn't be a place for it. I just think the place is relatively low considering the amount of people that don't want to do a "completion with out timer" run now.

    Yes if you do that now your key still gets downgraded. But at some point you should naturally beat the timer even if you don't aim to do so. Because your gear level and skill level will naturally hit a keystone level that you can hit with out trying. You still get loot from failed timed runs now. So the system is pretty much there but people don't want to choose to do so. They want the game to force people to play a certain way since people rarely choose to play that way.

    It just seems like a big waste of resources to maintain two very similar modes that brings little pay off for having both.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Do these guilds not spend hours upon hours and attempts upon attempts to down the bosses?
    Isn't that missing the mark of who a change like this is supposed to be for though? It isn't for the 1% Mythic raiders that will do 1,000s of pulls. It is aimed at the few who are afraid of timers for whatever reason. These people are not typical those that would spend 5 hours banging their head on the wall for one encounter. It also brings into question the challenges of designing encounters for 5 people but still allow every class/spec a "fair" chance at doing that content. Sure that balance isn't there for high keys already but it would be worse for a 5-man raid.
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  6. #566
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    But isn't getting through by "the skin of your dick" exactly what happens in Mythic raids?
    Do these guilds not spend hours upon hours and attempts upon attempts to down the bosses?

    Look, if someone wants to marathon a 5 hour M+, that's on them.
    But, if they kill the boss, even if by pure miracle, is the boss not dead?

    I'm not saying throw loot at everyone; hell, there's far too much purple rain as it is.
    All I'm saying is let people do an untimed run, let them get less overall rewards (in quantity and quality), and let them fuck off into their own world while the rest of the people who like M+ continue the timed runs and get better overall stuff.
    The mythic raid comparison IMO would be, if they kill the boss in X time they get more loot than what they get right now. The current drops from raid boss would not be the "beat the timer" amount of loot, it would be the "fail the timer" loots.

    If people are fine with a no timer M+ with lesser or weaker loot then so be it, I have no problems with that. But the consensus around here about no timer M+ is to also get the regular reward for beating timer, that is what I can't agree with.
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  7. #567
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Take away timer but increase the difficulty

    For example:
    1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
    2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
    3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


    As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
    there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.
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  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
    there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.
    but how is that any different from being in the middle of a boss fight? You can't pause the game or do you leave your raid group hanging and go afk? Yes it is a video game. That however does not mean you can't also make short term commitments while playing it. Your argument is essentially sporting events should pause while you go get another beer or go to the bathroom.

    Things in life sometimes require you to make a commitment. Things in life sometimes are more important than what you are doing at that moment. That is a choice you make.
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  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Take away timer but increase the difficulty

    For example:
    1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
    2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
    3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


    As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
    there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.
    timer is fine

    your suggestions are all trash.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Take away timer but increase the difficulty

    For example:
    1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
    2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
    3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


    As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
    there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.
    You should consider that certain types of content isn't for you if that's your mindset. You're choosing to pay for the sub - and you get to choose how you spend your time online. With your logic, mythic raiding should be removed, any fight or content that takes longer than 5 min should be removed. After all, real life might need your attention.

  11. #571
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Take away timer but increase the difficulty

    For example:
    1. If you die, apply a debuff, like dmg taken increased. healing reduced. Something that punishes a player for standing in fire.
    2. Maybe add an option. Keep the mythic setup as is OR discard timer but introduce an additional affix. So instead of 3 its 4 or instead of 4 its 5. Though already imagining a week with necro, bursting, grevious, bolstering, fortified...is just making me spiral.
    3. Or just throw out the concept of keystones. Make a singular mythic like challenge mode from MoP. Keep scaling, no timer, add random affix.


    As for the reason on WHY the timer needs to go:
    there are many but a simple one is, this is a video game. Timer is not the deciding factor between hardcore and casual. If I am in a mythic+ chasing a timer, and my wife needs something, or the door bell rings or the phone rings, I shouldnt need to consider a video game as part of my decision. Its a video game, it is NOTHING compared to things in real life.
    Game content is designed for people playing. Not for people trying to squeeze in a few minutes of fun in between real life obligations and responsibilities. You're supposed to play as a hobby when you have nothing else to do, keyword: nothing, as in it's impossible the door bell rings, you took care of kids and the wife is diong her thing while you do yours. For other moments then you're free to do the meaningless content like WQs and shit, or just play something else. When you commit to playing with other people you shouldn't be in a situation where maybe you'll have to stop everyone's game so you can do your stuff. I know it's not the case in the game, I know most people don't see it like this. I just strongly believe all these people should not play and I know I wouldn't play this game if I that was my life, so I don't understand why so many people do it, there's plenty of better games out there much better suited for that lifestyle. WoW is just a game like any other, it's not special or better or more worth it, it's not a lifestyle or an obligation.

    Like you said it's just a game, nothing compared to real life, so put life first and pick a game that suits your lifestyle instead of WoW.
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  12. #572
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    You should consider that certain types of content isn't for you if that's your mindset. You're choosing to pay for the sub - and you get to choose how you spend your time online. With your logic, mythic raiding should be removed, any fight or content that takes longer than 5 min should be removed. After all, real life might need your attention.
    Boss fights do not take average 30min. I did take my change in life into effect. I do not do keys higher than 9 even though I can double start 9s easy. Because I know my situation can change quick and I'd rather not screw over someone's key. Mythic dungeons require you to push for 20min at the least constantly.

    Payment for a sub is not a concern. I've had a running sub since BC and have gone months not playing.

    This is entirely about the value of a timer. A timer is a solution for gameplay but it can definitely be refined as better options are available they just require more effort from devs and players. Devs because an affix system would be more work to implement than just slapping a timer. Players because dealing with a higher difficulty, at least in my opinion, is a higher test of skill than just rushing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    timer is fine

    your suggestions are all trash.
    I guess you just aren't good enough to try higher end game play. Must suck at this game.
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  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    ...

    TLDR The vast majority of players enjoy being efficient, which means clearing runs quick and this has been the case since vanilla. Adding a timer changes nothing to the game mechanically and any issues you have with it is psychological, therefore not Blizzard's responsibility and you can fix it yourself.
    This is pretty much it. I love the concept of a timed run, I like trying to beat the timer at the highest possible key level for my group, by as much time as possible. The thought of taking my time in a dungeon has never, ever been a factor, for myself or anyone I've played with since Vanilla.

  14. #574
    I never really saw the "rush" aspect of mythic+. Honestly it's more of a pace I wish people would set in normal dungeons because I don't want to be in there all day. To much standing around and waiting for <reasons>. You're at full health, just pull the next pack.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But why would anyone do a timed run if you can get progression, loot, and basically no failure through a no timer run?
    Because (if I'm understanding him right), no timed runs come with restrictions that timed runs don't. The restriction in this case being that your key is locked for a certain amount of time. Timed runs are also more rewarding per run.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The flip side is why would people do a no timer mode if they can get upgrades and progression from timed runs easier?
    Because they would rather take things slow, which is kind of the whole point of this thread. Some people who can do timed runs simply don't because of the psychological pressure it places on you

    I think maybe one key point of contention is that +1 key level for the completion of an untimed key is too much. So let's make it require multiple completions to upgrade. These could even be limited by a cooldown of some sort (he had a daily lockout, but that may not be the best solution).

    Say an untimed keystone requires X runs to upgrade where X is the number of affixes it has (so 2, 3 or 4). This upgrade can only occur every key level / 2 days (hence capping it at 15 since you lose a level each week).

    Personally, more important to me than the timer is the fact that it's group locked. I'd like to be able to find replacements for people that quit part way through the run. If that was something that was added as a benefit to the "untimed" system, I think that would increase the likelihood of its use.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    Because (if I'm understanding him right), no timed runs come with restrictions that timed runs don't. The restriction in this case being that your key is locked for a certain amount of time. Timed runs are also more rewarding per run.

    Because they would rather take things slow, which is kind of the whole point of this thread. Some people who can do timed runs simply don't because of the psychological pressure it places on you

    I think maybe one key point of contention is that +1 key level for the completion of an untimed key is too much. So let's make it require multiple completions to upgrade. These could even be limited by a cooldown of some sort (he had a daily lockout, but that may not be the best solution).

    Say an untimed keystone requires X runs to upgrade where X is the number of affixes it has (so 2, 3 or 4). This upgrade can only occur every key level / 2 days (hence capping it at 15 since you lose a level each week).

    Personally, more important to me than the timer is the fact that it's group locked. I'd like to be able to find replacements for people that quit part way through the run. If that was something that was added as a benefit to the "untimed" system, I think that would increase the likelihood of its use.
    To be quite honest, I doubt there are many players who can actually handle the pressure of really difficult dungeons but buckle because of a simple timer. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but more or less all the Mythic raiders I know are totally fine with the pressure of M+'s timer, and often find it more lenient than the pressure of a hard Mythic fight where one small mistake means a wipe, whereas recovery is more possible in M+, depending on the key obviously.

    This game already has a low-ish percentage of players actively seeking challenging content, that I doubt the overlap between that and those who have psychological blocks because of a timer (!) is anything close to significant.

    I'm more sympathetic to the ability to replace a player. Failed runs because of ragequitters are one of the banes of M+. The pause system that I mentioned earlier could also allow you to bring in a new player, with maybe a small 1 minute penalty or something to prevent abuse.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    Yes, that is it, it offers 430 gear. You'll be fine killing mobs out in the world just fine with 430 gear, you don't need any higher unless you're doing progression raiding or pushing keys. It's that simple.
    I don't need a song and dance of off topic things.
    The OP asked if he could have mythic plus without a timer.
    Base mythic is not that.
    Let me explain why it's not since you don't understand.
    Base mythic is 1 difficulty.

  18. #578
    The Patient sykretts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But why wouldn't people just turn off the timer to get higher keys? Guaranteed bump with no time limit is better then trying to push and failing. You can't just "turn off timer" and have it still interact with timed Mythic+. Because the timer is the entire reason why Mythic+ is a challenge. Heck most of the affixes are no longer an issue if you have "unlimited" time to counter them.

    Also if non timed runs still boost the keystone why would a failed timed run not also boost the keystone? You would be punishing those who fail a timed run instead of just turning the timer off. You would also have to get less loot from a failed timed run since failed runs are supposed to still have rewards. And a failed timed run is more difficult then a no timer run.
    Don't bother with it. They keep missing that logic. The ultra casuals have never bothered about how the game works and how it affects everyone (I'm currently somewhat of a casual myself), and in the end, when they ask for something like this, you can bet your life on it that they'll miss out on all the loopholes and keep acting like they never exist. The ONLY argument people like them have is that "it's not hurting you so why is it bad?". Not once do they think how it hurts the game as a whole. Smh.
    Last edited by sykretts; 2020-03-06 at 12:22 AM.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    Because (if I'm understanding him right), no timed runs come with restrictions that timed runs don't. The restriction in this case being that your key is locked for a certain amount of time. Timed runs are also more rewarding per run.
    But if timed runs are more rewarding why wouldn't they do a timed run? They still reward loot when you fail. Your key just gets downgraded which is their complaint. But if they can't complete it in time naturally then they shouldn't be at that key level anyways. That is the problem. The crux of this issue is they want the rewards of a succesful Mythic+ with out having to have a timer. But if they can't handle a timer then a super hard dungeon likely won't be for them because it still has similar "psychological" stresses of performance and quick completion.

    A second system which is almost a 80% copy of Mythic+ adds a drain on resources. Which isn't needed because current Mythic+ has what people want. If you don't make the timer you still get loot. If you don't make a timer your key gets down graded where you have an easier time of doing the run. Which means you might make the timer the next time and have your key upgraded.

    Why would running an instance 4 times to upgrade a key be better then -1 and +2 in two runs? People are just putting way to much on a timer when you can naturally run a dungeon and not have to worry about it.
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  20. #580
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles Worth View Post
    I don't need a song and dance of off topic things.
    The OP asked if he could have mythic plus without a timer.
    Base mythic is not that.
    Let me explain why it's not since you don't understand.
    Base mythic is 1 difficulty.
    And so are 1-30+ keys, a time not existing is not difficult, it's lazy.

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