Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[MiseryIndex]

...

TLDR The vast majority of players enjoy being efficient, which means clearing runs quick and this has been the case since vanilla. Adding a timer changes nothing to the game mechanically and any issues you have with it is psychological, therefore not Blizzard's responsibility and you can fix it yourself.

This is pretty much it. I love the concept of a timed run, I like trying to beat the timer at the highest possible key level for my group, by as much time as possible. The thought of taking my time in a dungeon has never, ever been a factor, for myself or anyone I've played with since Vanilla.

[Very Tired]

I never really saw the "rush" aspect of mythic+. Honestly it's more of a pace I wish people would set in normal dungeons because I don't want to be in there all day. To much standing around and waiting for <reasons>. You're at full health, just pull the next pack.

[ShmooDude]

But why would anyone do a timed run if you can get progression, loot, and basically no failure through a no timer run?

Because (if I'm understanding him right), no timed runs come with restrictions that timed runs don't. The restriction in this case being that your key is locked for a certain amount of time. Timed runs are also more rewarding per run.

The flip side is why would people do a no timer mode if they can get upgrades and progression from timed runs easier?

Because they would rather take things slow, which is kind of the whole point of this thread. Some people who can do timed runs simply don't because of the psychological pressure it places on you

I think maybe one key point of contention is that +1 key level for the completion of an untimed key is too much. So let's make it require multiple completions to upgrade. These could even be limited by a cooldown of some sort (he had a daily lockout, but that may not be the best solution).

Say an untimed keystone requires X runs to upgrade where X is the number of affixes it has (so 2, 3 or 4). This upgrade can only occur every key level / 2 days (hence capping it at 15 since you lose a level each week).

Personally, more important to me than the timer is the fact that it's group locked. I'd like to be able to find replacements for people that quit part way through the run. If that was something that was added as a benefit to the "untimed" system, I think that would increase the likelihood of its use.

[Jastall]

Because (if I'm understanding him right), no timed runs come with restrictions that timed runs don't. The restriction in this case being that your key is locked for a certain amount of time. Timed runs are also more rewarding per run.

Because they would rather take things slow, which is kind of the whole point of this thread. Some people who can do timed runs simply don't because of the psychological pressure it places on you

I think maybe one key point of contention is that +1 key level for the completion of an untimed key is too much. So let's make it require multiple completions to upgrade. These could even be limited by a cooldown of some sort (he had a daily lockout, but that may not be the best solution).

Say an untimed keystone requires X runs to upgrade where X is the number of affixes it has (so 2, 3 or 4). This upgrade can only occur every key level / 2 days (hence capping it at 15 since you lose a level each week).

Personally, more important to me than the timer is the fact that it's group locked. I'd like to be able to find replacements for people that quit part way through the run. If that was something that was added as a benefit to the "untimed" system, I think that would increase the likelihood of its use.

To be quite honest, I doubt there are many players who can actually handle the pressure of really difficult dungeons but buckle because of a simple timer. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but more or less all the Mythic raiders I know are totally fine with the pressure of M+'s timer, and often find it more lenient than the pressure of a hard Mythic fight where one small mistake means a wipe, whereas recovery is more possible in M+, depending on the key obviously.

This game already has a low-ish percentage of players actively seeking challenging content, that I doubt the overlap between that and those who have psychological blocks because of a timer (!) is anything close to significant.

I'm more sympathetic to the ability to replace a player. Failed runs because of ragequitters are one of the banes of M+. The pause system that I mentioned earlier could also allow you to bring in a new player, with maybe a small 1 minute penalty or something to prevent abuse.

[Biggles Worth]

Yes, that is it, it offers 430 gear. You'll be fine killing mobs out in the world just fine with 430 gear, you don't need any higher unless you're doing progression raiding or pushing keys. It's that simple.

I don't need a song and dance of off topic things.
The OP asked if he could have mythic plus without a timer.
Base mythic is not that.
Let me explain why it's not since you don't understand.
Base mythic is 1 difficulty.

[Zarvel]

But why wouldn't people just turn off the timer to get higher keys? Guaranteed bump with no time limit is better then trying to push and failing. You can't just "turn off timer" and have it still interact with timed Mythic+. Because the timer is the entire reason why Mythic+ is a challenge. Heck most of the affixes are no longer an issue if you have "unlimited" time to counter them.

Also if non timed runs still boost the keystone why would a failed timed run not also boost the keystone? You would be punishing those who fail a timed run instead of just turning the timer off. You would also have to get less loot from a failed timed run since failed runs are supposed to still have rewards. And a failed timed run is more difficult then a no timer run.

Don't bother with it. They keep missing that logic. The ultra casuals have never bothered about how the game works and how it affects everyone (I'm currently somewhat of a casual myself), and in the end, when they ask for something like this, you can bet your life on it that they'll miss out on all the loopholes and keep acting like they never exist. The ONLY argument people like them have is that "it's not hurting you so why is it bad?". Not once do they think how it hurts the game as a whole. Smh.

[rhorle]

Because (if I'm understanding him right), no timed runs come with restrictions that timed runs don't. The restriction in this case being that your key is locked for a certain amount of time. Timed runs are also more rewarding per run.

But if timed runs are more rewarding why wouldn't they do a timed run? They still reward loot when you fail. Your key just gets downgraded which is their complaint. But if they can't complete it in time naturally then they shouldn't be at that key level anyways. That is the problem. The crux of this issue is they want the rewards of a succesful Mythic+ with out having to have a timer. But if they can't handle a timer then a super hard dungeon likely won't be for them because it still has similar "psychological" stresses of performance and quick completion.

A second system which is almost a 80% copy of Mythic+ adds a drain on resources. Which isn't needed because current Mythic+ has what people want. If you don't make the timer you still get loot. If you don't make a timer your key gets down graded where you have an easier time of doing the run. Which means you might make the timer the next time and have your key upgraded.

Why would running an instance 4 times to upgrade a key be better then -1 and +2 in two runs? People are just putting way to much on a timer when you can naturally run a dungeon and not have to worry about it.

[NatePsy]

I don't need a song and dance of off topic things.
The OP asked if he could have mythic plus without a timer.
Base mythic is not that.
Let me explain why it's not since you don't understand.
Base mythic is 1 difficulty.

And so are 1-30+ keys, a time not existing is not difficult, it's lazy.

[Vorality]

Uh huh. And all i heard is "mythic plus is soooo perfect".

it's not and the fact that there's 25 pages of discussion, the bulk of which is not "it's soo perfect" and we love the fucking timer says about all that needs saying.

As for your stupid addon and your problems screening players, you would have to if there was a middle ground for people to play the dungeons at lower stress level for lesser rewards but with the possibility of some small movement upwards. Instead players have to wheedle their way into content they may not have the skill or gear for in order to reach a place where there is a chance of an upgrade at all.

The solution to that problem is simple, trick people, buy carries or don't participate.

that doesn't sound perfect to me.

I feel bad that all you heard from me was that m+ is so perfect. I offered a solution to the problem, maybe you should look over my previous post again? And these last 25 pages of "discussion" is pretty laughable. People want the timer removed because they FEEL like it puts a stress on them and creates toxicity? LOL My God the snowflake is real. The time is there for people that want to up the key level and have a challenge. You do NOT have to complete it. Just because some casuals can't wrap their brain around that, doesn't make the system completely bad.

Do these same people just want to get to choose what keystone level they want without a time as well? While everyone else that isn't a snowflake knows you have to beat the timer to increase the level of keystone thus increasing better chance at loot. Give me a break.

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like typical edge cases. RIO is fine. Makes matchmaking of people with similar experience better and it's fun to chase score.

I agree with you, however, I just think Raider IO should remain external from the in-game experience. There shouldn't be a gateway for people looking to push and getting into groups other than their own self-earned experience. As I've stated in my previous post, something similar to Mage Tower or Horrific Visions, should be implemented to test an individual's skill. Proving grounds was the basis for groups in WoD, but falls short of anything meaningful.

[Kaver]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

I would definitely not remove the timer element because a lot of people also really like the competitive aspect of M+. But this is mostly organized groups. Personally I really enjoy playing with my usual M+ group and see how much we can push our own limits. Without the timer it would just not be the same for us.

However, I 100% understand your point of view. In PUGs the timer do often contribute to a very toxic environment. It would be nice to have an option to do difficult dungeon content in a nice and chill environment. It would also make it much easier to practice dungeon mechanics.

I think Blizzard need to find a good balance between the two. Competitive content is really fun for some but can be very toxic for others.

[Penegal]

I'll be fine with a no timer run only if you are not allowed to die on that run, alongside reduced rewards as it's easy to cheese if you have all the time in the world.

[Puupi]

I would definitely not remove the timer element because a lot of people also really like the competitive aspect of M+. But this is mostly organized groups. Personally I really enjoy playing with my usual M+ group and see how much we can push our own limits. Without the timer it would just not be the same for us.

However, I 100% understand your point of view. In PUGs the timer do often contribute to a very toxic environment. It would be nice to have an option to do difficult dungeon content in a nice and chill environment. It would also make it much easier to practice dungeon mechanics.

I think Blizzard need to find a good balance between the two. Competitive content is really fun for some but can be very toxic for others.

There are other ways to keep the dungeons competitive, not just a timer.

Just make them harder, have death limits, no exiting and re-entering (for changing talents/gear and whatnot) etc..

[Neenaw]

And people seem to be ignoring that it has nothing to do with Mythic+. Most groups want to clear the content as quickly as possible regardless of what content they are currently doing. LFR skips trash when it can be skipped. Heroics chain pull. World quests group for faster kills. Etc.

There's doing things quickly and there's rushing. The timer in M+ encourages rushing.

People rush more in M+ than they do in any other type of content. Everyone knows this to be true.

Why are people arguing against this btw? Why would it have to affect people that are happy with the current system?

It seems to be another case of not wanting other players to have what they want and be happy.....for no actually reason other than the standard animosity that plagues online culture.

"They don't like what I like, therefore my way is better and bo one else should have what they like"

I don't understand the mentality.

[Kaver]

There are other ways to keep the dungeons competitive, not just a timer.

Just make them harder, have death limits, no exiting and re-entering (for changing talents/gear and whatnot) etc..

I agree.

But I really enjoy the timer when I run with my organized guild group and I know that a lot of people feel the same. For us it is really fun, so to completely remove the timer element would not be the right solution. Blizzard just need to find a good balance of alternatives so everyone can play a format that they enjoy

[FelPlague]

There are other ways to keep the dungeons competitive, not just a timer.

Just make them harder, have death limits, no exiting and re-entering (for changing talents/gear and whatnot) etc..

Thing is you know 100% if those got added. Everyone here would be complaining about those instead of timers.
spend 2 hours on a +20 dungeon, and then some idiot gets themselves killed too much and it fails.

[ShmooDude]

Why would running an instance 4 times to upgrade a key be better then -1 and +2 in two runs? People are just putting way to much on a timer when you can naturally run a dungeon and not have to worry about it.

Why in the world would you expect that a group that failed a key, would then immediately be able to do a key one level under so fast that they get a +2? That would assume they're a strong group that made multiple egregious mistakes and/or gave up. So realistically you're talking about -1 +1 +1, then your weekly for a total of 4 keys vs 5. Maybe in the context of doing a 10, dropping level and doing a 9 and +2ing it because there's one less affix, but I'm not really concerned about that edge case since in that context they've already done their weekly (when 10 is the cap).

The idea is that the untimed path should take longer because it is guaranteed. It's the same general idea as seen in other systems like buying a specific piece of azurite gear off the vendor instead of a random one.

Now perhaps you're right, there may not be enough demand for a second system just for the removal of the timer. That's why I keep bringing up the point of the group lock which is the bane of M+ (imo), at least in regards to pugs. Between those two things, that might be enough reason to create a second system.

[ntlntl]

I would definitely not remove the timer element because a lot of people also really like the competitive aspect of M+. But this is mostly organized groups. Personally I really enjoy playing with my usual M+ group and see how much we can push our own limits. Without the timer it would just not be the same for us.

However, I 100% understand your point of view. In PUGs the timer do often contribute to a very toxic environment. It would be nice to have an option to do difficult dungeon content in a nice and chill environment. It would also make it much easier to practice dungeon mechanics.

I think Blizzard need to find a good balance between the two. Competitive content is really fun for some but can be very toxic for others.

I agree with you, the timer on-screen is pressing players to rush. Please all remember that humans are super emotional, we cannot make rational decisions like "just ignore the timer". It is stressful to meet the deemed expectation. I personally do not like timed activities with others. I recalled I was shit-talked by a rogue for missing the mark by 15 seconds while we all agreed that it's just a loot-only run. It's just natural that way, people cannot be less emotional; someone was pissed =)). In short, I dislike the atmosphere that the timer brings to the group. I simply dislike the feeling of constant pressure, we had enough in real life. I understand the argument by the OP of this thread. I could only dream that they make some sorts of super hard 5men mod like the heroic Cata dungeons were. OR a MAGE TOWER version for a 5 men group, without a timer.

Since I'm not a special snowflake as someone above said, it's fine if Blizzard has no other offer than M+. The majority of people are enjoying it, just leave that alone. I offer no solution as the current version of M+ is near perfect. We could all form groups to do non-timed M+, we just don't need to meet the timer, still get something at the end. Not upgrading the key is fine, as long as all members of the group agreed to that. But again, I'm not sure how that's going to work out in reality, because the timer is still there, hard to ignore it )

[Zeons]

Thankfully they will never do this. Can't believe these people want everything for free.

[rhorle]

There's doing things quickly and there's rushing. The timer in M+ encourages rushing. People rush more in M+ than they do in any other type of content. Everyone knows this to be true.

But it isn't true. My Mythic+ runs go as quick as my Heroic runs on alts. Because everyone wants to get the instance over as quickly as possible. There is no difference in "quick" and "rushing".

[Jujudrood]

The mythic raid comparison IMO would be, if they kill the boss in X time they get more loot than what they get right now. The current drops from raid boss would not be the "beat the timer" amount of loot, it would be the "fail the timer" loots.

If people are fine with a no timer M+ with lesser or weaker loot then so be it, I have no problems with that. But the consensus around here about no timer M+ is to also get the regular reward for beating timer, that is what I can't agree with.

I'm all for it being a lesser loot quality, and it definitely should be because you are removing 1 of the 3 "core" difficulty factors.
That's the trade-off, by disabling timer, you are saying "I want a success to move the key +1, even if it started at just +2 and we breeze through it", "I want less overall quantity and quality of rewards (loot, badges/currency, AP/equivalent) in both my per-run and weekly", and "I want this to be separate from timed runs so that those do not change or get interfered with in any regard".

I just feel that, based on the number of threads and people who've complained or even just shown a disinterest/dislike in the timer of M+ here, which is a sub-1% microcosm of the playerbase as a whole, it could very well have a valuable place in the world of "things to do" in WoW.
It could also go the other way, where people don't like lesser rewards, so they avoid un-timed and instead just step up, git gud, and do timed, making this all a complete waste of time.
Meh, can't please them all.