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  1. #161
    Without the timer this might actually be enjoyable.

  2. #162
    Stood in the Fire KrotosTheTank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wysmark View Post
    Oh gosh.. if only there were a simple way around that....

    - Mythic Timed (as now)
    - Mythic Cool ( no timer, but Dungeon always have Skittish in addition other affixes - Skittish because that would make CC more worthwhile to use)
    It's pretty clear to see how out of touch you are with how things function at consequential difficulties.

    First, Skittish isn't really a problem for any good group or tank, particularly if you have a rogue or hunter in the group.

    Second, I saw back in a way earlier post you felt that TBC dungeons were "tactical" because threat was a problem and because you had to CC. You do realize that being forced to stand still for intermittent periods of time doing literally nothing isn't difficult and it's actually extremely boring. Forcing CC also meant that if you did not play a class with the proper CC in specific dungeons then good luck getting in. Going oom? DPS players going oom is stupid gameplay, again just standing still and waiting wanding shit until it died. That took no skill.

    It sounds like you just want to play Classic WoW, which is fine, honestly, but don't try to bastardize arguably one of the best things blizzard has added to the game in a long time. You have a kid that causes you to step away for a while then you find content that allows for that. In this no timer scenario people would still want to get rid of players who slow them down because at the end of the day they're doing the dungeon to get gear and standing around doesn't help that.

    Your best bet in the mMo that WoW is is to find players with your same situation and play with them, problem solved. I've run with plenty of casual players and in much of the content i do with them i don't mind if they step away because it's known upfront. I'm not going to take them to a 15+ that i'm trying to time because it's a waste of my own time.

    TL: DR - find people to play with and ignore the timer.

    P.S. - aoe zerg sounds "faceroll" and "easy" but feel free to try it yourself when half the mobs cast or give necrotic, or bolster, or burst, or there's explosives, or sanguine or literally all the things blizz added to make doing this more difficult. CC, OOM, and Threat aren't difficulty.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    There is no challenge in ccing mobs pre pull and kill them one by one.
    There's no challenge in a +15 with current gear. What's your point? Playing against a timer isn't fun for a lot of people, and since most keys over +15 the vast majority don't give a damn about timing, i don't really see an issue here. Over a +15 completion each week it's basically just an e-peen race.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    There's no challenge in a +15 with current gear. What's your point? Playing against a timer isn't fun for a lot of people, and since most keys over +15 the vast majority don't give a damn about timing, i don't really see an issue here. Over a +15 completion each week it's basically just an e-peen race.
    My point were to be disingenuous against a disingenuous post. To explain it further, boiling down current m+ to rush rush rush is the same as me saying all you need to do is to cc 2-3 enemies then kill them 1 by 1... neither is difficult nor do they give an accurate picture of what actually goes on in the dungeons in both cases.
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  5. #165
    i dont really see an issue, all you have to do is ignore the timer and set up your key to be just going for completion. thats how i do it. some keys i want to push the timer others i want an easy run and not care about the timer so when i setup a team i set the expectations accordingly.

    i actually liked challenge modes they were a cool extra feature but nothing you were forced to do as all you got were transmogs/mount so not sure why people are against the idea since if you hated them all you have to do is not do them lol

    i will say visions i don't like but mainly because that is more or less forced gameplay as corruption is major part of your dps and not having corruption resistance hurts other parts of gameplay kinda of forcing you to do them which i do not find enjoyable. if it wasnt for the need of corruption resistance i would never touch visions lol
    Last edited by Mantra01; 2020-02-24 at 08:11 PM. Reason: added

  6. #166
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

    Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.
    If you fail the timer you still get a chest at the end don't you? Just group up with all of the other people you seem to know who don't like the timer, and do a run and ignore the timer.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    There's no challenge in a +15 with current gear. What's your point? Playing against a timer isn't fun for a lot of people, and since most keys over +15 the vast majority don't give a damn about timing, i don't really see an issue here. Over a +15 completion each week it's basically just an e-peen race.
    You just argued against yourself so hard it’s laughable. Seriously, take a second to read what you typed, realize that on one hand it argues FOR time to make something challenging, and in the other hand argues that nontimed keys aren’t necessary, as you put it “the vast majority don’t care about timing.”

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Wysmark View Post
    Oh gosh.. if only there were a simple way around that....

    - Mythic Timed (as now)
    - Mythic Cool ( no timer, but Dungeon always have Skittish in addition other affixes - Skittish because that would make CC more worthwhile to use)
    soo thats M+ with skittish, just without timer... im sorry, but way around what did you think this was?

    as i said much lower rewards or much higher difficulty, skittish doesnt add much difficulty, just instead of 100times you would wipe 105 times...
    more of a way like you can only have certain amount of deaths in run, or zero wipes or whatnot, that would be a way around it, not adding something that adds almost zero difficulty especially when you actualy have all the time in the world to pull mobs in extremely small groups, thats not adding difficulty, that just takes more time...

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    soo thats M+ with skittish, just without timer... im sorry, but way around what did you think this was?

    as i said much lower rewards or much higher difficulty, skittish doesnt add much difficulty, just instead of 100times you would wipe 105 times...
    more of a way like you can only have certain amount of deaths in run, or zero wipes or whatnot, that would be a way around it, not adding something that adds almost zero difficulty especially when you actualy have all the time in the world to pull mobs in extremely small groups, thats not adding difficulty, that just takes more time...
    Well I even have you suggest workable solutions don't I? I just used to think CC'ing (and keeping things CC'ed) was a tactical aspect that added a little something..

    But you admit there are ways to make a Mythic challenging without a clock then?

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    With unlimited time everyone can do 20s. There is no challenge anymore. So you just get loot for nothing basically.
    and thats exactly what some people want, loot for nothing

  11. #171
    Chasing the timer and pushing higher keys is the only enjoyable thing about m+. Without the timer it’s just a dungeon with different affixes.

    If you don’t like to push the time just do low keys leisurely.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Wysmark View Post
    But you admit there are ways to make a Mythic challenging without a clock then?
    i literaly said "if the reward is way lower, or the difficulty much higher i have no issue", i never said there arent ways to make dungeons challenging without timer...
    soo i dont know wtf you are on about...

    and only think neccesary CCing does is take away some options as to who to take with you as not all classes have CC...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-02-24 at 08:43 PM.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    The current swarm of hive minded sheep who have zero internal worlds and thus crave stress dictates that this will never happen
    When you have no legitimate argument, you resort to personal attacks. How unsurprising..

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by babyback View Post
    Chasing the timer and pushing higher keys is the only enjoyable thing about m+. Without the timer it’s just a dungeon with different affixes.

    If you don’t like to push the time just do low keys leisurely.
    But no one is suggesting removing the timer- just offering a version without it with lesser rewards for folks that want to take their time and still get a decent ilvl item at the end. It's not unreasonable at all.

    As to other folks claiming it's getting something for "nothing" - mmos have always rewarded players for time invested. It's counter intuitive to suggest that spending more time in a dungeon should somehow negate the value of ones efforts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by KrotosTheTank View Post
    It's pretty clear to see how out of touch you are with how things function at consequential difficulties.

    First, Skittish isn't really a problem for any good group or tank, particularly if you have a rogue or hunter in the group.

    Second, I saw back in a way earlier post you felt that TBC dungeons were "tactical" because threat was a problem and because you had to CC. You do realize that being forced to stand still for intermittent periods of time doing literally nothing isn't difficult and it's actually extremely boring. Forcing CC also meant that if you did not play a class with the proper CC in specific dungeons then good luck getting in. Going oom? DPS players going oom is stupid gameplay, again just standing still and waiting wanding shit until it died. That took no skill.

    It sounds like you just want to play Classic WoW, which is fine, honestly, but don't try to bastardize arguably one of the best things blizzard has added to the game in a long time. You have a kid that causes you to step away for a while then you find content that allows for that. In this no timer scenario people would still want to get rid of players who slow them down because at the end of the day they're doing the dungeon to get gear and standing around doesn't help that.

    Your best bet in the mMo that WoW is is to find players with your same situation and play with them, problem solved. I've run with plenty of casual players and in much of the content i do with them i don't mind if they step away because it's known upfront. I'm not going to take them to a 15+ that i'm trying to time because it's a waste of my own time.

    TL: DR - find people to play with and ignore the timer.

    P.S. - aoe zerg sounds "faceroll" and "easy" but feel free to try it yourself when half the mobs cast or give necrotic, or bolster, or burst, or there's explosives, or sanguine or literally all the things blizz added to make doing this more difficult. CC, OOM, and Threat aren't difficulty.
    A clock is the best thing Blizzard ever did?

    I merely want dungeons to be challenging in a way that wasn't a rush, and I offhand mentioned a few situations from back in the day when you had to organize pulls (because from Wotlk and onwards you didn't - from then on it was zerge)

    I'm not saying the whole zerging to beat the timer is easier, but none of the current affixes are difficult in themselves at all as they are just designed to slow you down. So if we were to develop an alternative way of having Mythic + then the challenge need to be something else, which is what has be reminiscing about TBC.

    You can have your timed runs. I'm not trying to take those away from you. But it would be great if there was an alternative way to have dungeons be challenging

    Not sure where all you toxicity comes from...

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Try filling a pug group telling them this is the plan. It doesn't work.

    I have done this with guildy's, and we sure enjoyed it way more than timer stress simulator.
    Really? I see keys listed all the time that explicitly say "for completion". If you say it before people join expecting to do challenging dungeons, it works fine.

    If you wait until the group is full, then say "we dont want a challenge, we want gear for no effort", then it probably wont work like you said.

  17. #177
    Stood in the Fire KrotosTheTank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wysmark View Post
    A clock is the best thing Blizzard ever did?

    I merely want dungeons to be challenging in a way that wasn't a rush, and I offhand mentioned a few situations from back in the day when you had to organize pulls (because from Wotlk and onwards you didn't - from then on it was zerge)

    I'm not saying the whole zerging to beat the timer is easier, but none of the current affixes are difficult in themselves at all as they are just designed to slow you down. So if we were to develop an alternative way of having Mythic + then the challenge need to be something else, which is what has be reminiscing about TBC.

    You can have your timed runs. I'm not trying to take those away from you. But it would be great if there was an alternative way to have dungeons be challenging

    Not sure where all you toxicity comes from...
    Not the clock, but making meaningful 5-man content that keep dungeons relevant beyond the first couple weeks of an expansion.

    Players will add the rush, with or w/o a clock. If you go out get groceries and you have the option to do so in 1 hour or 3 you're going to pick 1 hour every time. Having something take longer for the sake of it isn't difficulty. Allowing something to take longer is currently present in the game today. There is nothing that prevent you from taking a long time on a dungeon, hell i just spent nearly 2 hours in a junkyard recently because i was going with undergeared friends and it can be really rough on tyrannical. In that dungeon, we already lost the timer relatively early on so we decided to take time and just finish it, we took a break because fuck it, we didnt have a timer anymore. It didnt take blizzard allowing for a special mode to give us the freedom to do what we want with that key.

  18. #178
    If you can get a higher key and good loot without timing your key, then the whole system would fall.

    The only way I see this becoming a reality, is if you agree that your key won't matter.. So the key is stuck in +14 for the rest of the week and no loot or depleted keys will be obtained.

    The reason is because you can brute force a +15 in 3 hours, and still get a +16 for better chest next week, hardly seems fair to people making it in time - But gaining the same reward.
    Also, timing a key to make it higher, is the whole premise why the gear-system works. High risk for high reward.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    The problem is of course that dungeons do not contain hard-blocker quite like raids do, especially in Fortified weeks. If you wait out every single cooldown, including Lust, on every single pull, you can eventually clear a dungeon much harder then your skill or gear should dictate - and higher then a group that doesn't employ such tactics would.

    That is the prime reason for having a timer to advance your key and unlock access to a higher level. M+ dungeons are designed like one long encounter without any individual major blockers, with trash being a real challenge. If you take enough time to slowly kill the trash, with full CC and with all temporary buffs at your disposal, basically splitting this one long encounter into many small ones, you will take forever, but you will succeed (up to a point).

    Personally, I understand the appeal of this. I would like a sort of "5man raid" concept which is challenging and requires actual strategy, but not timed. But I also fully understand why we can't just have an M+ without timers. It would need to be carefully designed from the ground up.
    This actually made a lot of sense to me. I need to reconsider my thoughts.

  20. #180
    Herald of the Titans Amaterasu65's Avatar
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    You can just put a " not going for time ", " chill run " etc on the title and get people who will not care about the timer. Problem solved.

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