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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    I don’t see any of those players as “winning”.

    This entire thread has been about the definition of what constitutes "winning" in the "Pay to Win" category.

    Techincally, even being able to buy gold with real world currency falls under the P2W umbrella, since it's allowing people to leverage their real world money to get ahead in a game which should be only about a player's ability to progress within the rules of the game. The only reason it's commonly acceptable is because the alternative(black market 3rd party gold sellers) are both harmful to the in-game economy and risks the potential of Credit Card fraud.

    The counter argument is that the gold itself is not being generated by Blizzard, but rather by other players. So the system is still contained within the game itself, and does not therefore fall under P2W. I don't generally agree with this, but I can see why the argument holds water for many people.

    Personally I think that it's almost nonsensical to pay real money to skip ahead in a game about progression. The entire point is the journey of progression. If you skip it all by just swiping your credit card, then you're not really even playing the game.

    Sure, there's a few people who only care about competitive performance at the top end. The world first race and such, and those who only want to push high M+ keys. But I think that there's a real problem with the effect that paying for such powerful gear creates within the community. It sets expectations. It feeds the power creep and the expectations for finding groups continue to get higher and higher. Cases where a person might feel like they MUST purchase a gold token in order to afford a powerful piece of gear become more frequent.

    It's an overall detriment to the game, in my opinion. And the fact that it's been going on for awhile, and has become an acceptable norm isn't really a good thing. And I REALLY hope that Blizzard has a better solution in Shadowlands to help put the fire out rather than simply feeding it like they did with BOE corrupted gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    video is prepared in advance, truths can be bent in a way i cant get from the video itself, thats why i never watch "informational" wow videos, its pointless, its not information but rather point of view of the person making the video
    Then you're being willfully ignorant, and your opinion counts for less than nothing. If no one else's opinions matter because you refuse to even listen to them, much less consider them, then why are you even here?

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Well, if you want to try that route. Blizzard is not selling the item either. That item was obtained from another player which played and got the item within the game rules.

    A player cannot just buy the item on demand. Just as a player cannot buy gold on demand. That gold is obtained from another player. Just like the BoE. So can Blizzard claim to be in control of the supply?
    If the gold is available any time you want to buy it then its gold on demand.

    Also with the connected AH the gear is also "on demand" and lets not forget you can scan other AH transfer toon with your purchased gold shop the item and come back.

    Saying someone else farmed that gold doesnt exonerate it from being purchased gold. It just provides a theoretical max amount of gold in circulation. If you ask me since the gold for sale never seems to stop and at the same time prices are inflated to the sky, blizzard is actively printing money.

  3. #463
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, of course it's P2W in a sense because the outcome is the same on paper (though I would argue considerably less people will make use of it). But there's a big difference between breaking the terms of service in order to get P2W benefits and doing so legally because Blizzard supports and promotes this kind of behaviour.

    It's like saying that committing theft is the same thing when you do it under the risk of punishment as when you do it legally because there's no laws against it and the government endorses it.
    Oh, that thing exists - it is expropriation and ofc people will say the they got robbed, legal or not. I mean...people will claim that they are grown ups, can make their own decisions, don't want to be advised what to do and then turn a round and claim they got scammed because the pre-ordered Shadowlands. Anyways...I don't think your allegory floats, but I agree to what you said above. Well..I agree to the part of "the outcome is the same on paper"

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so untill we know or at least can assume there was something like that, there is only information that we know - no significant movement of the price, hence we can say that demand for token did not have significant increase as long as we dont have different information we can factor in...
    That would only be true if you already knew, with certainty, the existing influences on the token price.

    The token price is a black box. We don't actually know what effects it. Sure, we can speculate with some certainty. But not enough to claim one thing and not another. If you can't say one thing effected the price, then you can't claim the opposite either.

    If I make a drink that's 20% rum and 80% coke, it's still 100%. If I make a second drink that's 80% rum and 20% coke, it's still 100%. That's just an analogy to illustrate the point, but I hope you can understand what I'm getting at. It's entirely possibly that 100% of current token sales are going directly towards buying BOE corrupted gear, to the exclusion of other sales. The price of the token might not move significantly, but the portion of total token sales that goes towards buying BOEs is unknown.

    Therefore it's not possible to say with certainty that BOE didn't influence token sales. For all we know the token sales might have dropped significantly without the availability of BOEs.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    A few of the things that can be bought in wow with gold that you can buy for cash and can be considered p2w:
    1. Mythic dungeon keys boosts
    2. Mythic raids boosts
    3. Levelling parties boosts
    4. Vision runs x the masks you want boosts
    5. Arena boosts
    6. RBG boosts
    7. Transmog runs with mount loot option
    8. Transmog runs with specific gear loot option
    9. 25 kill weekly runs boosts
    10. Island expedition mythic runs
    11. BoE gear that can sometimes surpass the value of BiS mythic gear.

    Lets also remember paying money RL in vanilla to secure your rank 14 week (back when servers were on their own)
    Lets also remember MC boost groups then BWL boost groups etc all for real money
    Do we even know if there has not been any scarab lords that paid for that privilege?

    We run around saying "this shit doesn't affect me" but it really does.

    None of those are offered by Blizzard. That’s just players trading goods. And none of that requires IRL money. I have a gold farmer that I boost regularly. He’s never purchased a WoW token for cash, but still has a ton of gold.....that he gives to me

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    or in real situations its not as powerfull as people think based on simulations...
    Except that it IS that powerful in actual practice. NOT sims. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    this might be, but not 40% as some people claim in this thread... thats not even real in ideal conditions on dummy
    Except when it is. :/ But you refuse to listen to the practiced, experienced expert who would show you that data. So where does that leave things?

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    buying BoE’s has been a thing since
    Classic so if that’s your metric then the game has always been P2W.
    It wasn't sponsored by Blizzard, moron.

    You could, theoretically, get banned for buying BoEs with real money.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    A few of the things that can be bought in wow with gold that you can buy for cash and can be considered p2w:
    1. Mythic dungeon keys boosts
    2. Mythic raids boosts
    3. Levelling parties boosts
    4. Vision runs x the masks you want boosts
    5. Arena boosts
    6. RBG boosts
    7. Transmog runs with mount loot option
    8. Transmog runs with specific gear loot option
    9. 25 kill weekly runs boosts
    10. Island expedition mythic runs
    11. BoE gear that can sometimes surpass the value of BiS mythic gear.

    Lets also remember paying money RL in vanilla to secure your rank 14 week (back when servers were on their own)
    Lets also remember MC boost groups then BWL boost groups etc all for real money
    Do we even know if there has not been any scarab lords that paid for that privilege?

    We run around saying "this shit doesn't affect me" but it really does.
    I think you should carefully consider that none of those things you listed are sold directly by Blizzard, but rather by other players.

    Now, as I said in an earlier post, I believe that having the ability to leverage your real world money to effect the game like this does fall under P2W. But I can see why people would try to draw the technicality between a player selling something and the game itself selling it. To those people I would say that the Token is part of the game, and thus anything you are enabled to do with the token is therefore P2W.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    That’s just players trading goods. And none of that requires IRL money.
    Keep laundering blizzard ethics and someday they will shine. "Players trading goods". Hilarious...

    Blizzard killed the gold farming industry because they wanted to do it themselves without the competition. And they allow all the p2w that I described above so they can increase the demand for their printed gold.

    A totally legit business model but an unethical one. The fact that you and me farm our gold doesn't mean this shit is not happening...

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yeah it is HIS definition and it is as valid as your, because when I google the definition of pay to win, guess what? I cannot find a trusty dictionary that explains it, except https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win
    Well, let's have a look at what that source says shall we?

    pay-to-win
    "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

    "Several games nowadays have the option to pay real money to enhance the experience of the player, often frustrating him unless he pays up."

    "Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game."

    "Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

    "when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long "


    I think the theme is pretty clear here. It's not just about being able to buy something for real money. It's primarily about the penalty you suffer for not paying.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Other than that everybody is apparently making up their own stuff to fit their narrative..why else would there be this reddit thread if you could just google an actual accepted definition by a dictionary?
    I agree with you. Most people in any p2w argument are trying to push some narrative. Like the OP.

    Here's the thing: Generally speaking, the term p2w is viewed with disdain. It's something undesirable for any game to be. So detractors of the game like to try and argue that WoW is p2w so that they can prove just how shitty tokens/the game/Ion/Blizzard are. But to any astute observer this is a pretty obvious strawman. Sadly not everyone is that astute.

    Given that context, that people attach a lot of negative connotations to a game if it is deemed to be p2w, it follows that any meaningful definition of p2w needs to account for the things that cause those negative connotations. Otherwise it is nothing more than a strawman.

    To that end, IMO, what really makes p2w onerous is when people are coerced into spending money to buy stuff or face the reality of being left behind. Honestly, why should anyone care if some random person spent $200 to buy tokens so that he can buy a BoE ring that boosts his dps by a little bit? Why would that be any worse to me than if a Method raider bought that ring with gold made from selling boosts. Or if an AH goblin with 50M gold bought it. Or if some lucky bastard just had it drop for him on a trash pack before the first boss of the instance?

    No, what matters to me is simply whether I need to spend a similar amount of money to compete. And given the rarity of such items, and the ease of making gold in the game, the ability to buy gold with tokens is entirely irrelevant.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think you should carefully consider that none of those things you listed are sold directly by Blizzard, but rather by other players.
    Thats the definition of circular thinking. Blizzard doesn't sell those services they just sell the gold to purchase them. How convenient.

    Edit: As English isn't my first language I wrote something meaning something else and turned out to be something quite inappropriate. Sorry if I offended anyone.
    Last edited by Motorman; 2020-02-25 at 05:19 PM.

  12. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    A few of the things that can be bought in wow with gold that you can buy for cash and can be considered p2w:
    1. Mythic dungeon keys boosts
    2. Mythic raids boosts
    3. Levelling parties boosts
    4. Vision runs x the masks you want boosts
    5. Arena boosts
    6. RBG boosts
    7. Transmog runs with mount loot option
    8. Transmog runs with specific gear loot option
    9. 25 kill weekly runs boosts
    10. Island expedition mythic runs
    11. BoE gear that can sometimes surpass the value of BiS mythic gear.

    Lets also remember paying money RL in vanilla to secure your rank 14 week (back when servers were on their own)
    Lets also remember MC boost groups then BWL boost groups etc all for real money
    Do we even know if there has not been any scarab lords that paid for that privilege?

    We run around saying "this shit doesn't affect me" but it really does.
    I actually agree that these are things and not ideal, but lack of a token spike and the decreasing value of tokens suggest that they are at least not getting worse.

    Further, as you rightly say, all the way back to Vanilla people bought this sort of stuff for RL money, and not infrequently. I'm really skeptical that most of those are actually regularly paid for with IRL money even via tokens though. I mean God really who pays RL money for mythic islands or transmog runs? I've never even seen those advertised.

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xauro View Post
    Is this good gameplay or not?
    That's not what the word gameplay means. At all.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Thats the definition of circle jerking. Blizzard doesn't sell those services they just sell the gold to purchase them. How convenient.
    Blizzard doesn’t sell the gold either. It’s player gold. Are you purposely trying to be wrong?

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Thats the definition of circle jerking. Blizzard doesn't sell those services they just sell the gold to purchase them. How convenient.
    Blizzard doesn't generate the gold. Players do. All blizzard is doing is facilitating the transaction.

    The problem I have is as I said before: It's allowing players to leverage out-of-game currency to influence in-game currency. Which is where I find myself defining "P2W".

  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    It wasn't sponsored by Blizzard, moron.

    You could, theoretically, get banned for buying BoEs with real money.
    Blizzard took a token effort to say it’s technically not ok while still raking in money from it for years. Saying they didn’t sponsor it is meaningless when they let it happen because they kept making money off off of it.

  17. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Thats the definition of circle jerking. Blizzard doesn't sell those services they just sell the gold to purchase them. How convenient.
    I think you mean circular logic or keeping their hands clean, because er buddy no that is not any definition of circle jerk (neither literal nor metaphorical). I get what you're saying but...

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    None of those are offered by Blizzard. That’s just players trading goods. And none of that requires IRL money. I have a gold farmer that I boost regularly. He’s never purchased a WoW token for cash, but still has a ton of gold.....that he gives to me
    So what? The entire point of this thread is that people are able to purchase gold, and purchase items with this gold, meaning wow is "pay to win", according to OP.

    Your gold farmer might as well but a corruption item BoE with gold.

  19. #479
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    To that end, IMO, what really makes p2w onerous is when people are coerced into spending money to buy stuff or face the reality of being left behind. Honestly, why should anyone care if some random person spent $200 to buy tokens so that he can buy a BoE ring that boosts his dps by a little bit? Why would that be any worse to me than if a Method raider bought that ring with gold made from selling boosts. Or if an AH goblin with 50M gold bought it. Or if some lucky bastard just had it drop for him on a trash pack before the first boss of the instance?

    No, what matters to me is simply whether I need to spend a similar amount of money to compete. And given the rarity of such items, and the ease of making gold in the game, the ability to buy gold with tokens is entirely irrelevant.
    Yeah..I was thinking of Method or Limit. (and possible any other top 10 raidguild...maybe even top 100). Method did say they spend a lot of gold. Not sure about others, but I guess they did as well.

    Yet, in no world did I ever expect any other guild than Method or Limit to win this race. No matter how much any other guild would spend on BoEs would they "win".

    Now...ofc people can say people might want to win other things...like server first. Or a raidspot. Or the dps meters. Fine. Let them call the game P2W, nobody is gonna convince them differently (has anybody on the internet actually ever changed their mind? Is there a documented case? )

    It is not different than the discussion of what counts as content.

    I don't really care. I had 6 million during WoD and wished there would be a system that I could spend it on in a way other than what eventually became the 5 million AH mount. ( I did buy the 2 million spider though) and...lo and behold...the token allows me to do just that.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by reauxmont View Post
    So what? The entire point of this thread is that people are able to purchase gold, and purchase items with this gold, meaning wow is "pay to win", according to OP.

    Your gold farmer might as well but a corruption item BoE with gold.
    If the gold farm bought a boe with gold that’s not even close to being pay to win. He played the game and didn’t do anything bout of the ordinary. Got gold in game, bought an item off the AH. Wow, game breaking.

    All Blizzard offers is a means of which players can trade game time/blizz balance for gold safely. That’s it. They don’t make/print/generate gold. They don’t sell power items, they don’t sell boost. That’s all the players. It’s trading. You want my time/skill this is what you can offer, because the items I want need you can’t trade or can’t get yourself so gold it is.

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