Page 32 of 46 FirstFirst ...
22
30
31
32
33
34
42
... LastLast
  1. #621
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    7,355
    Quote Originally Posted by Dommie530 View Post
    You couldnt buy it for real money? Are u living under a rock? U could litterly buy gold from farmers, hell you could even buy boe with real money, tcg items. You could pay a chinese kid to level your char in fucking days. Stop this p2w bs. In ANY game where trading is a thing their are elements of real life money involved, its as simple as that.
    i wasn't living under rock
    it was illegal
    this is like saying that since u can buy heroin government should make it legal, or since u can grab a gun and steal a bank government should make it legal
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    buying BoE’s has been a thing since
    Classic so if that’s your metric then the game has always been P2W.
    As long as there is no real money involved it's not pay to win.

    WoW tokens made it possible.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    As long as there is no real money involved it's not pay to win.

    WoW tokens made it possible.
    End of thread right there, thus WoW is now pay to win.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    It's been the case ever since the idiotic token was unveiled.
    its been the case long before the token was even an idea

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Anchoring expectations is a known tactic in sales. A good example would be the case of Personal Loot vs Master Loot. Despite the arguments on both sides, Personal loot was pushed through due to vocal outcry. Now how often do people even think about Master Loot? Cosmetic loot boxes being a normal thing that many people now defend as being harmless is maybe a better example.
    Maybe my question wasn't clear; you suggested that buying low quality items for a "higher price" (higher than what?) would translate negatively in the game. I wanted to know what made you come to this conclusion. The examples you provided seem to be unrelated.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I highly recommend that you watch the Preach video on the effects of corrupted gear. But as for why it's a problem what demands Timmy has? You clearly haven't seen the rampant elitism in the public group finder. Asking for gear and achievement requirements that are double what the run actually needs is commonplace! To be fair, it's a condition that existed before corrupted gear. But corrupted BOEs are only going to make it worse.
    I watched a little bit. I found the part about randomness being more of a factor than skill quite interesting since this is the reason I quit playing in the first place; I don't want a proc to determine that I'm top DPS.

    As for the elitism you're referring to: Yeah, I agree that it's horrible and I also agree that people generally demand a much higher itemlevel than is required to warrant an invite. But a. it's their right and b. it suggests there's a much, MUCH more pressing issue Blizzard should acknowlegde: People do not like the content they make.

    Allow me to elaborate: Developers make content that's generally perceived as bland or boring. Yet, said content has a very small chance to reward you with disproportionally powerful items, which means that people are inclined to repeat content that they find boring, ad nauseam. What would you do, if you felt like you had to do content, you do not enjoy? Make a group that overpowers said content to minimize the chance of failure which would result in frustration and in the end a massive waste of time.

    Do I agree with this mentality? Absolutely not; I never gave a fuck about itemlevel. But people that play games like wow, generally do and are willing to go to great lengths for a stupid piece of purple gear. Even do things they dislike, which is ironic considering the fact that wow is a game and games should be fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    There are a number of factors that have changed since the days of TBC. The market for F2P and P2W has increased drastically. The overall atmostphere and environment of what's acceptable and normal has likewise changed. Buying items in-game with real money has become a growing concern in the entire gaming industry, as illustrated by the Battlefront 2 fiasco with EA, among many other cases.

    People buying in-game items and cosmetics with real money is more or less an accepted norm for many people. Whales are a reality of gaming, and with Activision-Blizzard's increased focus on the mobile market(and associated business models), you can see the influence in wow with more paid cash shop items than ever before. I have ZERO personal doubts that all of these BOEs being dropped into the game are a test or data-gathering experiment by Blizzard. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not.
    All true, yet, neither of the examples provided is evidence of an increasing amount of people buying "full sets" of gear from the AH and thereby 'paying to win'.

    Just to make myself clear: I think that buying gear is like paying someone to build the Lego you bought. Ergo, one of the most dimwitted things you can do. But heck, if people want to 'play' the game that way, it's their right.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-02-27 at 08:45 AM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    i wasn't living under rock
    it was illegal
    this is like saying that since u can buy heroin government should make it legal, or since u can grab a gun and steal a bank government should make it legal
    robbing a bank is the worst analogy to BUYING stuff ive ever heard...
    and yes government SHOULD make drugs illegal, would be better for economic, crime rate and addicts too...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    End of thread right there, thus WoW is now pay to win.
    and always been, as buying gold was so common blizz rather introduced token than baning huge part of their playerbase

  7. #627
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    34,838
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Isn't a WoW token only like 200k gold.

    Wouldn't that mean that to buy a piece of gear for 2 million gold, you'd need to pay 200 USD?

    That doesn't seem like something people do.
    Oh they do..apparently Method spend 50 000 $ (or rather Euros) on gear. Limit as well. People here claim they have to do it to be competitive in their guild etc etc.

    On the other hand they will be/are selling mythic carries to make the money back. (well...not sure how it will ever go back to their wallet, since converting gold to money goes into the b.net balance, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    robbing a bank is the worst analogy to BUYING stuff ive ever heard...
    and yes government SHOULD make drugs illegal, would be better for economic, crime rate and addicts too...
    Don't you mean they should make it "legal"?

  8. #628
    Fluffy Kitten MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tralfamadore
    Posts
    29,732
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Oh they do..apparently Method spend 50 000 $ (or rather Euros) on gear. Limit as well. People here claim they have to do it to be competitive in their guild etc etc.

    On the other hand they will be/are selling mythic carries to make the money back. (well...not sure how it will ever go back to their wallet, since converting gold to money goes into the b.net balance, right?
    My evergreen objection to this argument is that the people who make it seem to believe that this level of spending is common. Yes, it happens. No, it's not common for people to drop a lot of money on a BOE. You are very unlikely to ever run into anyone that spent that much real life money on stuff to get from the AH.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  9. #629
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    34,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    As long as there is no real money involved it's not pay to win.

    WoW tokens made it possible.
    Goldsellers made it possible since Classic and there was real money (oh yeah, and account theft) involved. So if you want to claim WoW is P2W it always was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    End of thread right there, thus WoW is now pay to win.
    Yeah..if only it was so easy to end a thread...but you can end it for yourself because you have somebody agreeing with you (or rather who you agree with)

    Almost 6300 posts not only agreeing / disagreeing if it is P2W, but even those who agree it is p2w cannot even agree on "was it ever or is it since the token or is it since we get so many and so powerfull BoE's" - they cannot agree ir it only counts because the token comes from Blizzard and thus buying gold with money from goldsellers counts or not. Hell...they cannot even agree what people "win"

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Goldsellers made it possible since Classic and there was real money (oh yeah, and account theft) involved. So if you want to claim WoW is P2W it always was.



    Yeah..if only it was so easy to end a thread...but you can end it for yourself because you have somebody agreeing with you (or rather who you agree with)

    Almost 6300 posts not only agreeing / disagreeing if it is P2W, but even those who agree it is p2w cannot even agree on "was it ever or is it since the token or is it since we get so many and so powerfull BoE's" - they cannot agree ir it only counts because the token comes from Blizzard and thus buying gold with money from goldsellers counts or not. Hell...they cannot even agree what people "win"
    Yeah I dont assume everyone knows how logic work, but at least I do.

  11. #631
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    34,838
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    My evergreen objection to this argument is that the people who make it seem to believe that this level of spending is common. Yes, it happens. No, it's not common for people to drop a lot of money on a BOE. You are very unlikely to ever run into anyone that spent that much real life money on stuff to get from the AH.
    Well..yeah...but you know how this forum is: Somebody got lucky with a titanforging on a piece of gear and it is "OMG this whole system is bad because every LFR hero gets better gear than mythic raiders / mythic raider loses raid spot because n00b now out-dps him" (and it is happening to everyone everywhere)

    Whenever there was a survey (among "normal" players) on how much gold ppl have, there were very few with over 500k. A handful with 1-5 million. Tiny amount with over 5 million. Percentages were higher among MMO-C players. So it isn't even feasible for most ppl to buy that amount of gear - and yeah..even if you buy 10 tokens from Blizzard, somebody needs to buy them..and then you exchanged 200 Euros for 2 million gold.

    Really...indeed. How many ppl do that?

    On my AH not much moves: There is some ilv 445-460, non corrupted gear sitting there for 25k-500k ..and some joker thinks his ilv 420 leather boots can fetch 2.8 million.
    Actually the most expensive gear is "replica" BoE from the DMF. Hm..seems somebody who buys that will "win" the transmog game.

    But I get it. It is beyond the point. Even if ony 50 guilds do it and the occasional guy who really wants some piece of gear...the ppl who claim WoW is p2w can count that as p2w as the only needs to be in the game and not how many use it.

    I linked the definition of p2w that I could find earlier https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win and now it is all about nitpicking words (at least for those who care to look up the definition). And from where I stand, looking at my AH...nope...the game does NOT allow me to buy better items than the ones I could acquire in the same time myself - and I do not see the game "largely unbalanced" especially not for people who have the skill.

    Anyways...doesn't matter. It is not like, even if this game was p2w it suddenly breaks some laws. People who think it is p2w and are disgusted by it can use that as a justification to not play and dislike Blizzard even more...which is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    Yeah I dont assume everyone knows how logic work, but at least I do.
    Your post disagrees with you. But maybe you want to take your time to explain how logic works in this case. You know..to the ones who are not as blessed with the knowledge of logic as you are?
    Last edited by det; 2020-02-27 at 09:09 AM.

  12. #632
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,671
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Oh they do..apparently Method spend 50 000 $ (or rather Euros) on gear. Limit as well.
    That is false. And easily debunked

    Method didn't buy any tokens. They spend 300M gold (some of which was spent on tokens to buy realm transfers and such), which was the equivalent of spending $40K. But they made the gold in-game.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Your post disagrees with you. But maybe you want to take your time to explain how logic works in this case. You know..to the ones who are not as blessed with the knowledge of logic as you are?
    What I meant was since blizzard implemented their own token you can buy for real money and convert to gold, they developed their own pay-to-win.

    So in short yes - the game is pay to win now even by Blizzards own standards.

  14. #634
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    34,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    That is false. And easily debunked

    Method didn't buy any tokens. They spend 300M gold (some of which was spent on tokens to buy realm transfers and such), which was the equivalent of spending $40K. But they made the gold in-game.
    Ah, ok...thanks for clearing that up.

  15. #635
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,671
    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    Yeah I dont assume everyone knows how logic work, but at least I do.
    Maybe it's time for you to start applying it to these discussions then.

    Yes, you think it's "simple" and that the token clearly makes WoW p2w. That just tells me you've not really put enough thought into it.

    The truth is that p2w has no universally accepted definition. So how people will choose to define it for themselves is subjective. People who are genuinely capable of thinking critically and logically (as you'd like to believe you do) would at least consider the following when deciding how they choose to define p2w:

    1) people generally regard a game being "p2w" as bad/player unfriendly/undesirable
    2) so what it is about "p2w" that creates that negative association?
    3) are those same characteristics part in your definition?
    4) what is the agenda of the person defining p2w?


    p2w is regarded as a negative thing because it coerces players into either spending money or having to settle for an inferior gameplay experience (either an inability to compete on an equal footing, or lack of access to certain content).

    The WoW token has none of this nonsense associated with it. While it gives players the ability to obtain a bunch of gold for zero effort, it isn't nearly compelling enough to coerce anyone into doing anything. It's perfectly feasible for anyone to play WoW, see all the content, and compete on an equal footing with anyone else, without ever needing to resort to tokens.

    The only reason that it's popular for people to push the notion that tokens are p2w is because they want to use it as a strawman in some other (typically anti-WoW) agenda (like the OP of this very thread).


    Yes, it is totally true that the token has some p2w-like features. But it shouldn't require some kind of genius to recognise that there's a bit more to being p2w that is conspicuously absent in the token system.

    And before you accuse me of having some agenda of my own, of course I do. I like WoW. So I want features that are good for the game and good for me. I have zero motive whatsoever to defend a feature which is bad for the game.

    You, however, as a vocal hater of the game have every reason to manufacture false arguments in order to shit on it. Stop pretending that this is about logic for you. It's patently not.

  16. #636
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    34,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    What I meant was since blizzard implemented their own token you can buy for real money and convert to gold, they developed their own pay-to-win.

    So in short yes - the game is pay to win now even by Blizzards own standards.

    Yeah, like I said earlier: There is a definition of p2w (only one on urban dictionary) that I could find - and now we argue about the meaning of words. Quoting myself:

    "Almost 6300 posts not only agreeing / disagreeing if it is P2W, but even those who agree it is p2w cannot even agree on "was it ever or is it since the token or is it since we get so many and so powerful BoE's" - they cannot agree if it only counts because the token comes from Blizzard and thus buying gold with money from goldsellers counts or not. Hell...they cannot even agree what people "win" "

    I honestly have no idea what "Blizzard's own standards" on this are....I don't recall them ever being asked or addressed whether the game is p2w.

    But again...whether anyone thinks the game is p2w is meh to me in the end. I am pointing out when I think there is a flaw in the reasoning and what I think on the issue.

    It doesn't mean anything in itself, it only means what you and only you do with the conclusion that you come to. Does it ruin the entire game for you? Is it morally reprehensive? Do you shrug it off? How do you act on it / have acted on it when you found out?
    Last edited by det; 2020-02-27 at 09:56 AM.

  17. #637
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,671
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    As long as there is no real money involved it's not pay to win.
    Close, but not complete.

    As long as real money is not required, it's not pay to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    WoW tokens made it possible.
    WoW tokens aren't even close to being a requirement for anything. It's not even possible for them to become so because the gold they buy is created by people playing the game. You literally cannot have everyone choosing to buy gold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    It doesn't mean anything in itself, it only means what you and only you do with the conclusion that you come to. Does it ruin the entire game for you? Is it morally apprehensive? Do you shrug it off? How do you act on it / have acted on it when you found out?
    Spot on. And therein lies the problem.

    By and large (with a few exceptions) people who want to argue the case for tokens making the game p2w simply want to claim that being p2w is evidence of how shit the game/Ion/Blizzard have become. It's a strawman argument which, sadly, a lot of people seem to fall for.

    The reality is that regardless of how anyone chooses to define p2w, the term itself remains a pejorative and I believe it's disingenuous to come up with a defintion for the term that ignores this.

    It's like calling someone an asshole, defending the label on the basis that they're really good at sorting shit out.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-02-27 at 09:55 AM.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    You, however, as a vocal hater of the game
    Okay Im not taking you serious after that statement.

    In your logic "being critical of something = hater"

    If thats as far as your grasp of this discussion goes, I dont think I have much else to say to you.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Maybe my question wasn't clear; you suggested that buying low quality items for a "higher price" (higher than what?) would translate negatively in the game. I wanted to know what made you come to this conclusion. The examples you provided seem to be unrelated.
    It was an illustration the concept of anchoring. You'll note that I said "IF players are willing to accept less, but pay more, what will the corporation sell?". I think what you're fishing for is some example you can pick apart, when all I was talking about is theory. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

    But this is general market and economic theory. The AAA gaming industry has shown time and again that they WILL push the envelope for what players will accept. And they'll keep pushing until something breaks, like with Battlefront 2, or the Diablo 3 auction house, or Fallout 76. Until players stop accepting(and buying) sub-par products, AAA publishers will keep pushing to release them.

    And, generally speaking, people DO keep buying and pre-ordering these unfinished, sub-par products. That's why game companies keep doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    As for the elitism you're referring to: Yeah, I agree that it's horrible and I also agree that people generally demand a much higher itemlevel than is required to warrant an invite. But a. it's their right and b. it suggests there's a much, MUCH more pressing issue Blizzard should acknowlegde: People do not like the content they make.

    Allow me to elaborate: Developers make content that's generally perceived as bland or boring. Yet, said content has a very small chance to reward you with disproportionally powerful items, which means that people are inclined to repeat content that they find boring, ad nauseam. What would you do, if you felt like you had to do content, you do not enjoy? Make a group that overpowers said content to minimize the chance of failure which would result in frustration and in the end a massive waste of time.
    I agree that the scenario you just described does play a factor. Where I think the real issue comes from is not that the player is perceiving the content as bland or boring, or that they don't enjoy it. I think that a great many people simply do not want to be faced with challenging content. Who mostly just want to receive items with as little work as possible. This is why the concept of swiping a credit card for gear, then using that paid gear to further seek easier runs, is so corrupting(if you'll forgive the pun) to the community of PUGs. It's no longer about playing the game, but just being fed rewards with as little effort as possible.

    Granted, that desire to get easy rewards manifests in many different ways. The requests for EZ-mode in games like Dark Souls. The complaints about being entitled to gear during the Master Loot debate. The purchasing of gear through the token system.



    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    All true, yet, neither of the examples provided is evidence of an increasing amount of people buying "full sets" of gear from the AH and thereby 'paying to win'.

    Just to make myself clear: I think that buying gear is like paying someone to build the Lego you bought. Ergo, one of the most dimwitted things you can do. But heck, if people want to 'play' the game that way, it's their right.
    I don't believe I ever claimed people were buying full sets(please do correct me if I'm wrong. I'm involved in many debates, and it's sometimes hard to keep track of t hem all), nor that full sets were required to fit a P2W situation. :/ But even a handful of corrupted gear pieces with the right traits can provide a significant boost to performance, as described by Preach.

    As for playing how a person wants, as is their right: I actually tend to agree. However, Blizzard is facilitating a poor gameplay dynamic and exacerbating the issue by enabling players to be more and more lazy. Basically catering to the problem I described in the middle of this post. And that, I hope you agree, is a direction that doesn't lead anywhere good for the game, despite being an attractive method for blizzard to further monetize the game.


    EDIT: Just a heads up. While I find this discussion super interesting, I'm going in for LASIK surgery tomorrow to fix my eyes. I won't be able to respond anywhere from 24-48 hours. Don't think I'm ignoring posts during that time. I just won't be able to read the screen.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-02-27 at 10:02 AM.

  20. #640
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    34,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    By and large (with a few exceptions) people who want to argue the case for tokens making the game p2w simply want to claim that being p2w is evidence of how shit the game/Ion/Blizzard have become. It's a strawman argument which, sadly, a lot of people seem to fall for.
    Yeah...well...if you need to blame somebody to have an excuse to quit, then nothing will change that. Those ppl are on their way out anyhow..so whatever.

    I mean...(turning this into a brand that I have quit) I could say I hate SW now because Kathleen Kennedy manipulates directors and pushes a female Agenda, how Rey being a Mary Sue and all men complete idiots made me ragequit - but basically I just found 1-3 cringe- inducing bad and Eps 7 a huge disappointment on every level...so I said "Look, I just don't enjoy where this goes anymore and will not pay to see it"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •