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  1. #661
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    As long as there is no real money involved it's not pay to win.

    WoW tokens made it possible.
    Are you pretending that before tokens people couldn't buy gold or boosts with real money?

    The only thing that changed is that those people willing to spend real money don't have to go to fishy websites or invite people to play their toon on their pc. I'm not even starting that weird thing some guilds had with paypalling cash for loot to lootmaster
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-02-27 at 12:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  2. #662
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Which means it would be the same if people just farmed gold the normal way?
    I think where your logic is breaking down is here. Beecause no, it's NOT the same as if people farmed the gold the normal way. The reason why is because one person is swiping their credit card instead of actually doing the work to gain the gold by playing the game.

    Granted, it's not full disgusting predatory P2W. Blizzard is not selling the gold directly out of nowhere. Some player somewhere IS doing the work. The problem is that other players are bypassing doing their own work, not by socially getting their friends to help them, or organizing farming runs, or playing the auction house, or any of the other ways that a person can make gold by playing the game. They're swiping their credit card.

    That is almost exactly the definition of pay to win. I don't see how it can NOT be viewed as such.

  3. #663
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iosdeveloper View Post
    you could always win at wow by paying
    The thing about "winning at wow" is that it's a subjective goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Are you pretending that before tokens people couldn't buy gold or boosts with real money?

    The only thing that changed is that those people willing to spend real money don't have to go to fishy websites or invite people to play their toon on their pc. I'm not even starting that weird thing some guilds had with paypalling cash for loot to lootmaster
    That's a pretty clear line in the sand, though. Here's the difference:

    The black market gold selling, ToS breaking, loophole-abusing, grey area industry was providing the P2W element. The game itself had no function to facilitate trading real money for gold or other P2W services until the paid character boost was introduced, and later the Token.

    If you can't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.

    Anyway, signing off for 24-48 hours. Have fun arguing this. I'll be interested to see what turns up over the next few days.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That's a pretty clear line in the sand, though. Here's the difference:

    The black market gold selling, ToS breaking, loophole-abusing, grey area industry was providing the P2W element. The game itself had no function to facilitate trading real money for gold or other P2W services until the paid character boost was introduced, and later the Token.

    If you can't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.
    I'm not arguing about pay to win, because i see no winning in wow, as i don't see a league of legends as pay to win game, just because you can buy a character using real money (i mean, if you goal for winning is getting a renekton asap - good for you, the game is pay to win i guess). I'm saying that wow always had open economy, you could get gold, items, raid spot, whatever for real money, gold, or other services, Token is just a cherry on top (for me), because it's what players wanted (judging by their actions), there was demand and blizzard provided players with a secure way to transfer gold from one person to another for cash, instead of dealing with keyloggers or scamming.

    If players are against token - then it wouldn't exist in the first place, because players showed that they are willing to pay money to get gold off the hands of other players.
    If players are against powerful BoEs - well tough luck, these things existed throughout the history of the game, good morning sunshine etc. Same goes about open player-made economy
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-02-27 at 01:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Isn't a WoW token only like 200k gold.

    Wouldn't that mean that to buy a piece of gear for 2 million gold, you'd need to pay 200 USD?

    That doesn't seem like something people do.
    I cant recall what the $ hard cap was when D3 had its cash AH, but rest assured plenty of gear sold for it. Someone paying $200 isnt surprising.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    As I said, I don't know how corrupted gear works or how big its impact is. What I do know, is that when 'someone else wins', it should be due to skill and not luck. Which is why your example of Method seems out of place to me; another team was better than them, not luckier. Right?
    The point was to demonstrate that contests are more interesting when there's some degree of unpredictability to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    As for the your example of predictibility being 'boring', couldn't you argue the opposite as well?
    The opposite would either be predicability being interesting/entertaining - I don't see how really, or
    unpredictability being boring - again, I don't see how really.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    If player X knows that player Y always tops the meters, player X might do an extra effort to beat player Y the next time.
    If player X knows the player Y always tops the meters then putting in extra effort is futile. Adding some luck to the equation, including luck during the fight, means that the outcome is uncertain, so player X knows that if he does well, he is in with a shout. Here's the catch though. Player X probably doesn't attribute his win to luck.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Some people, yes. But it's clear that there's at least an equal amount of people who aren't interested in challenge of any kind. Hence the idiocy of things like the movement to create an "EZ-Mode" for games like Sekiro. Hence why we have people who attempt to require absurdly high iLVL gear for relatively easy runs. They don't want "challenging but fun". They just want free loot with no effort.
    I don't get why you're so preoccupied with people who'd appreciate an easier mode for games like Sekiro. This example alone, proves your theory about people "only wanting the free loot" wrong; there is no loot in Sekiro. Some people just want to lay back and play a game which they find interesting due to its story line, setting (heck, who doesn't find Samurai cool?) or graphics without the stress they experience on its default difficulty. There's nothing wrong with that, especially because it doesn't affect you, me or anyone else in any way.

    The people who push high keys and demand extremely well geared people, don't fall in the same category as the aforementioned ones who want an easier version of Sekiro. These key pushers don't want to 'relax'. They consider themselves among the elite and don't want to waste time on content they stopped enjoying a long time ago. ergo, (as I said before) they want to eliminate as many variables as possible that could result in fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't think this type of person is very common. I think there are people who will turn up the difficulty and honestly seek to overcome greater challenges for greater rewards, and there are people who only want the rewards without working for them.
    it's not black and white; there are many kinds of players. People who only want to be the best, people who only want to best gear, people who only want to have fun and don't give a flying fuck about achievements, gear or loot in general, etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The type of person who will get bored very much WILL just go do something else.
    I'm afraid this isn't how addictions work, my friend.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Because the entire point of Souls-like games IS the difficulty! Take that away and the games are meaningless.
    No one is asking to take it away, as far as I can tell. Did the "easy" option make Doom less entertaining for you? Again, what does it matter how another person plays a game? Do you somehow feel less 'l33t' if people are able to kill Sekiro's lightning Sensei? If so, you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you have this need to feel special.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Timmy would be better off just watching someone else stream it rather than pitching for the entire genre to alter its fundamental premise just to satisfy his laziness or lack of even trying to understand the purpose of the game. Where the harm comes in is with Timmy robbing himself of the very thing the game was meant to be.
    Says who? You? The developer? Don't get me wrong, I love the DS series even though I found Sekiro a bit on the boring side. But I couldn't give a flying fuck about an easy mode being added; I won't use it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Granted, WoW is not a Souls-like. However, I believe the harm in WoW stems from something similar as I just mentioned. In that when people start to come to expect the game to be easy, even when it's meant to be difficult, we start seeing situations like in M+ PUGs. Rather than just playing on an easier setting, Timmy is now asking everyone else to massively overgear more difficult runs....so that they're easier for him. And there are a LOT of Timmy's in the game right now.....largely, IMO, because Blizzard has not done anything to help Timmy play the game as it was intended.
    No, that's not the reason and I already explained why. Timmy has already put in the hours, he doesn't want to 'progress' anymore. He wants to crush the shitty content and be done with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    But you're right. Maybe Blizzard wants to turn the game into something else. It's entirely possible. I've even suggested that Blizzard's focus on moving into the mobile market is having a distinct influence on the way in which ALL their games are being balanced and designed. Maybe Blizzard wants WoW to be more of an Gacha game than an actual MMORPG.

    I hope not. But I can some of the signs. That's why I argue against these kinds of changes with so much fervor.
    Like everything, games evolve and for all intents and purposes, if the 'core' game play isn't appealing to a great enough audience, it needs to change lest it remain a niche game with all the difficulties that entails.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The point was to demonstrate that contests are more interesting when there's some degree of unpredictability to them.
    I don't agree. I find things more interesting when there's the least amount of luck involved, which is why I'm a martial artist and not a football player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The opposite would either be predicability being interesting/entertaining - I don't see how really, or
    unpredictability being boring - again, I don't see how really.
    I explained how. Read again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    If player X knows the player Y always tops the meters then putting in extra effort is futile.
    In that case you can just throw in the towel and accept you'll always be mediocre in everything you do. This point of view is so flawed and basically everything I stand against.

    "Gordon Ryan wins all his fights, ergo, putting an extra effort is futle; just give up."

    Nah, we're just very different persons, you and I. When I see someone beats me, it gives me an incentive to train harder and not the opposite. Weaklings hang up their gloves after a beat.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-02-27 at 01:43 PM.
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  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think where your logic is breaking down is here. Beecause no, it's NOT the same as if people farmed the gold the normal way. The reason why is because one person is swiping their credit card instead of actually doing the work to gain the gold by playing the game.

    Granted, it's not full disgusting predatory P2W. Blizzard is not selling the gold directly out of nowhere. Some player somewhere IS doing the work. The problem is that other players are bypassing doing their own work, not by socially getting their friends to help them, or organizing farming runs, or playing the auction house, or any of the other ways that a person can make gold by playing the game. They're swiping their credit card.

    That is almost exactly the definition of pay to win. I don't see how it can NOT be viewed as such.
    I get your point. Though that's what economics are, isn't it? Someone does the work while someone else pays for it?

    One farms enough gold to buy a token.
    I recieve the gold because it's my token.
    I use said gold to buy a boost run in Ny'alotha.
    The booster uses the gold to buy a token.

    Isn't it just the same as it always has been? Me as a buyer of a boost run doesn't do anything either, it's someone else that does all the work, the booster.

    Now it just happens to be real life money involved with tokens though as mentioned, they don't add nor substract anything from the game.

    If no one supply gold, you would not be able to sell tokens. Whereas a shop that sells digital items that increases your powerlevel never runs out of stock (if said items doesn't have a digital stock, ofcourse).
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    In p2w games you buy things you can't reasonably get without paying, directly, from the game developer. Buying gold to buy an upgrade isn't p2w.
    Gold can be used to get almost anything ingame so WoW has p2w, it can be a power upgrade or an acheivement most people cant get otherwise, its still p2w
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gold can be used to get almost anything ingame so WoW has p2w, it can be a power upgrade or an acheivement most people cant get otherwise, its still p2w
    Depends on your interpretation of "winning".

    For me 'p2w' has always been paying money to gain an advantage in a player versus player scenario. For example, buying cheats to compete in 5v5 team death match or buy an overpowered gun from the itemstore to win gun fights against players who aren't willing to dish out the cash.

    Pay to win is like cheating to me, which is despicable and so are people who make use of such services.

    In single player games, or in non player versus player scenarios I really couln't care less. They're not affect my game play, so it's all fair game.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-02-27 at 01:51 PM.
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  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Are you pretending that before tokens people couldn't buy gold or boosts with real money?

    The only thing that changed is that those people willing to spend real money don't have to go to fishy websites or invite people to play their toon on their pc. I'm not even starting that weird thing some guilds had with paypalling cash for loot to lootmaster
    Much,much more changed then just that. I sold runs from tbc onwards starting with the bear though I stopped after wod. ( didn't have the time to farm ap to remain competitive).

    The token brought about a massive change. Runs used to be reserved to selling mounts to auction house mongrels and it was exceedingly rare to sell to people who bought gold. We were the server first guild and could charge a premium.

    Once the token hit we started to get utterly flooded with buy offers. It got to the point were we could not reliably get new members mount at the end of the tier from being booked up. For the first time we saw a real demand for runs where people didn't care for the mount but wanted gear.

    So yes, there were carry runs before the token but it massively changed the lay of the land once it hit.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    buying BoE’s has been a thing since
    Classic so if that’s your metric then the game has always been P2W.
    You can't buy gold from blizzard in classic, I think that the op point.


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  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerbill Society View Post
    You can't buy gold from blizzard in classic, I think that the op point.
    Woww damnnnn.. have you seen the millions of gold sellers that privatly sell gold for real money? It exists just like in retail. Get a grip people. Wow is not pay2win, and never will be. People thinking other wise are just unintelligent fucks that dont know nothing.

    I have spoken.

    Close the thread now pretty please!

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    you do realise it was so common that rather than banning so many players blizz ignored it and later came with token?

    and honestly, i know dozens of people who were buying/selling (i was selling myself at one point) and never heard anyone actualy getting banned over it...
    I genuinely do not see what you're trying to accomplish here. The 2 scenarios are very obviously different, where one is against ToS, the other is Blizzard selling the gold themselves (id est, not against ToS), possibly to prevent people from resorting to illicitly buying/selling gold, more likely to make more money. It's like I told you I'm allergic to peanuts but you don't buy it since you saw me eat cashews. Best outcome you can hope for here is that I agree with you that WoW came with a hint of P2W from the start.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    True. But bear in mind that the context of the discussion is about feeling the need to resort to tokens in order to compete. Those 3% serve to illustrate what is possible if someone were to choose to compete.

    Yes, gold is important if one wishes to be competitive in this game. But the crux of my argument is that if one is actually committed to being competitive, then there is no need to resort to tokens to obtain that gold because the same attributes that lead to players/guilds being competitive also make them very effective at making gold in game, to the extent that tokens simply aren't an attractive proposition.
    I don't wanna make another long post, so I'll leave it at these 2 arguments. You say that the 3% with the Brutosaur mount show what is possible when you compete, yet we do not know how many of that 3% are people who didn't buy any tokens. The fact that only 3% has it and that the mount is, at best (or worst, depending on your perspective), available for another 9 months, shows that people who want that mount but aren't making enough gold might feel compelled to resort to tokens.


    As for you dodging the question and the crux of your argument, I feel like you're dancing around the point and arguing about something I never contested. You already stated that gold is important multiple times yet your only argument against this being P2W is that you can also achieve it by not slacking or going hard. Funnily enough, people use that exact argument to defend HS not being P2W, as did I, in the past. I stand by my initial point that if 2 people of equal skill/standing are trying to accomplish a specific objective within the game, the person spending money has the advantage. Even if you consider 2 HC guilds competing to be a poor example, getting the expensive gold mounts, doing a +15, getting the mage tower back in legion, getting "the Faceless One", getting just about any PvP reward,... Almost anything your average player tries to achieve within this game can be made easier by buying tokens, in my head, that's pretty much as perfect of an example of P2W as you can get. The only thing that they aren't selling yet is gear that is otherwise unobtainable. By gear I mean gear with stats, as the ship on selling transmog has set sail years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I apologise that it came across that way.
    The only reason that kinda stuff annoys me is because it'd get you a failing grade in a middle school debate, yet apparently modern day politicians are too puerile to adhere to that.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Torgent View Post
    Sorry, I don't raid normal. If you're comparing mythic boes to normal, then you're hopeless in this argument.
    Also: Raid drops can also drop corrupted, so you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
    Where did I say they couldn't corrupt? I'm saying buying a corrupted BoE, which has corruption, is obviously a better item than a normal boss drop which has a slim chance of corruption, and even slimmer chance of being a good one.

    You really don't know anything about the game do you

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Where did I say they couldn't corrupt? I'm saying buying a corrupted BoE, which has corruption, is obviously a better item than a normal boss drop which has a slim chance of corruption, and even slimmer chance of being a good one.

    You really don't know anything about the game do you
    Those goalposts are quite mobile.
    First it was "They are better than anything that you can find in a raid"
    Then "Mythic BoEs are better than normal mode raid drops"
    Now we have "Buying items circumvents RNG, so it's obviously better"

    Repeating that I don't know anything about the game doesn't really bother me. Keep going. You raid normal, I don't. I'll sell you my BoEs though, I've made a few mill this patch from it already. You can have a discount for entertaining me the past day or so.

  18. #678
    Anyone who thinks WoW isn't pay to win now needs to have their brains examined. Never in the history of World of Warcraft could you swipe your credit card and be guaranteed to get an item that increases your DPS by such a substantial amount that you absolutely destroy anyone else regardless of skill and rotation. There's no reason to spend time on your character anymore. Just grab your credit card and pay Blizzard, join the party!

    The game is 100% dead until this shit changes.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerbill Society View Post
    You can't buy gold from blizzard in classic, I think that the op point.
    You can't buy gold from Blizzard in retail either.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gold can be used to get almost anything ingame so WoW has p2w, it can be a power upgrade or an acheivement most people cant get otherwise, its still p2w
    But you can also reasonably obtain everything you can buy for gold inside the game itself. You can even easily make the same sums of gold you can buy.

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