WOW- Now pay to win?

[Raelbo]

It's just it does act as a roadblock in mythic.. pvp to. A good corruption is worth more then a trinket slot. I'm using a 450 pvp item with my lowest being a 465 and 475s next to it and that 450 is worth more dps then any other piece...

So what? Did you have to spend $$ to buy that corruption? No. No one has to. It's nice to have the option to buy a BoE, for which any serious guild can find the gold. It's also nice to have the option of spending $$ if you are so inclined. But the fact is that it is an option that very few will ever excercise due to supply limitations. And because so few people will be making use of them, the requirement to buy them in order to be competitive is null and void, unless you're at the very top end and need every little advantage you can get to beat the next team. And even then, because you buy them with gold, not $$, there is still no need to spend $$, as was proven by Method and Limit who did spend loads of gold to buy the few available early BoEs, but didn't buy even a single token to do so.

For the most part though, these BoEs are a by-product of successful raiders, not a requirement to successfully raid.

I find your hand waving away of that puzzling. I have to assume you don't raid past heroic or maybe a mythic 15.

I am not hand waving anything away. I am differentiating between the need for decent corruptions, and the need for spending $$ to get them.

[Volitar]

pay to win for Method and Limit only, for normal people no not really..I mean technically you -COULD- but nobody really gives a shit about parses anymore.

[Kumorii]

Maybe it's because I'm right. Let's see:

Anthem.
Fallout 76.
Battlefront 2.
WoD
BfA
Warcraft 3 Reforged
No Man's Sky(arguably has been corrected)
Aliens Colonial Marines
Diablo 3's launch
WWE 2k20
Red Dead Online


I could go on. There are so many bad AAA games out there that I wonder that your claim of there being "no point in arguing against your mindset" is that you don't want to admit just how bad some of these games are. You claimed that there are better products. How about you list some? I can think of a few, if you can't. The Witcher 3. God of War(2018). Sekiro.

I don't get the point of these lists... every year there are AAA duds and gems... it's the same as always. To me it hasn't gotten worse. I also find it odd that Fallout 76 somehow is a milestone for Bethesda when all their games have been a buggy mess saved by mods. To me counting it now requires to count every Bethesda game in the past so I guess +-0?

To list some good games:
Tomb Raider series
Doom 2016
Dark souls 3 and series in general
Alien Isolation
AoE II Remastered
Resident evil 2 remake
Death Stranding
Read Dead Redemption 2 - if we count online as a bad thing we have to count main game as a good thing.
Diablo III RoS - same as above
Witcher 3
God of War
Sekiro
Horizon Zero Dawn
Kingdom Hearts 3
Devil May Cry 5
Monster Hunter World: Iceborne
Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order
Control
Gears 5
The Surge 2
Shenmue 3
Planet Zoo
Metro Exodus
Spider-Man ps4


Etc etc... the thing is that you find shit if you look for shit and you can find good stuff if you look for it. Also making a list of horrible games is very subjective unless we talk about straight up broken ones... Broken ones have been with us since Atari and the first games ever were to happen. Even in the "golden age" of gaming you got broken games but instead people played the good ones rather than complaining about bad ones.

Almost every year we get awesome games and I can only speculate that people see their IP fall down into a rut, because the more games you create the bigger chance you will eventually create a dud; Lets face it, somehow takes it as the general quality everywhere is going down.

Then we have things such as FIFA games. I know they get a lot of flack but they sell really well and people who enjoy those games are satisfied and they seem to work for the most part... they should be on that list to even if I don't like them and they have other issues such as lootboxes, but the game itself plays really well and brings tons of enjoyment for millions I would say.

I'm having problems that march and april will cost me lots of money on games because there are couple of games
Doom Eternal, Ori and will of the wisp (not AAA but still), FF7 remake (demo dropped today) and RE3 remake then we have Cyberpunk later this year and there's probably tons of other games that I'm not aware of that others are excited for.

Then we also have to take into account that gaming has become much bigger than it used to be... more people are making games, which means more good games and also more bad games. Couple that with internets need to rant about things they find bad just exaggerates.

Side note: Fallout 76 is kind of unfair, not because it's shit because it is...but Bethesda has released BROKEN games since the Morrowind days. Their quality has been shit from the start... so to me, their games have been the bad example in gaming news for every time they have been released. I know you will probably argue that other games are well received and that's what matters, which is true and the point. It's very subjective so a list is kind of meh, especially when we move from titles that aren't objectively broken, such as WoD and BfA because regardless if they are well received or not, they work and function and plenty of people enjoy them.

[Hero2Zer0]

As long as people don't act like this was some diabolical/intentional act by Blizz. At the end of the day, these are player sold items that have nothing to do with Blizz. Someone could theoretically sell a top tier Corruption BoE or 1-10k gold and no one would be crying about P2W. The amount of people paying $200+ to buy a single BoE is infinitely smaller than most P2W heralds seem think. These items are being sold primarily to the vast amount of players/guilds in the game that have asinine amounts of gold that they've been stockpiling.

"But it's still P2W. They could pay $200 and get a 15% dps increase". Sure, but what's going to happen later this year? What's going to happen when all of this is stripped away and ceases to exist? What's going to happen when the value of these BoE's goes down, and starts selling for a fraction of the price? What if you logged in on Tuesday and Blizz nerfed these 1mil+ traits by 80%?

I understand the feeling that, a powerful item COULD be bought with money. However, anything in this game can be bought with money, and this supposed outlier is no different. Players create various economies in WoW, whether or not a specific sector is legal through Blizz's terms. Players also created the demand for the illegal gold selling industry and RMT, both things that cause a lot of headaches for Blizz. Blizz did not create any of these issues, they did not present the game with potential P2W situations, that was the playerbases doing.

This should've been th end of the discussion.

[Rogue Karl]

So what? Did you have to spend $$ to buy that corruption? No. No one has to. It's nice to have the option to buy a BoE, for which any serious guild can find the gold. It's also nice to have the option of spending $$ if you are so inclined. But the fact is that it is an option that very few will ever excercise due to supply limitations. And because so few people will be making use of them, the requirement to buy them in order to be competitive is null and void, unless you're at the very top end and need every little advantage you can get to beat the next team. And even then, because you buy them with gold, not $$, there is still no need to spend $$, as was proven by Method and Limit who did spend loads of gold to buy the few available early BoEs, but didn't buy even a single token to do so.

For the most part though, these BoEs are a by-product of successful raiders, not a requirement to successfully raid.



I am not hand waving anything away. I am differentiating between the need for decent corruptions, and the need for spending $$ to get them.

Do you find it odd how you say it's pointless then immediately provide an example were it isn't?

Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?

[rhorle]

Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?

Because that is the way Bind on Equip has always worked?

[dacoolist]

Very different? Well, again, we have very different standards. Instance X is instance X, wether there's random puddles of blood, volcanos, skittish mobs or a boss with more HP, it's still instance X. Superficial, variable difficulty discrepancies aren't equal to new content.

But again, this is all subjective. If a change in affixes is enough for you to enjoy repeating the same content over and over, all power to you!

I didn't suggest anything; I asked.


I don't agree with your point of view. They are - in fact - working for it; they're spending time to form a group that fullfils their requirements and they're actually clearing the content. Merely because they don't comply to your definition of "working for it", doesn't make their approach invalid.

Again, you're worrying too much about how others play the game and your projecting your view of how the game "should be played" onto others. If you want to play a game in particular way, gopher it. Just don't attempt to force others into the same route.


I disagree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls would be the exact same game to me, if there'd been an easy mode for it;.


Why are you assuming Blizzard or any other developer, wants to creat a product that appeals to everyone?

I hate to break it to you, but the "lowest common denominator" is not who you think it is.


I think you're being overly dramatic again; most people don't buy 500 euro worth of gold, for a few auction house pieces of loot.

People are not withdrawing from public grouping. If anything, people are grouping up more than ever thanks to the tools developers gave them to facilitate the logistic procedures.

You're projecting your personal experiences and the way you interpret individual changes onto the game and its community. Not unlike people who kept shouting 'wow is dying' merely because they were gradually losing interest.


Nonsense. Wow can be a solo experience if you want it to be.

I strongly advise you to stop projecting your opinion on what games are or should be, onto others and find a game that's in line with your point of view, rather forcing one that isn't up your alley.

I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation

[Katchii]

I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation

I'm with @nocturnus on this. A more difficult experience of the same dungeon or raid doesn't make it a "different" experience, IMO. It's the same dungeon, same aesthetics, same enemies, etc... you just do things a little differently each time you're in there because now the enemies blow up when you kill them, or run away at low health, or have more health, etc...

That's really not that dissimilar of an experience than doing the same dungeon on the same difficulty with a completely different set of players each time, making each run a little unique from each other.

Granted, it's not exactly the SAME, but it's not really different enough for me to consider it a completely different experience either.

[rhorle]

Granted, it's not exactly the SAME, but it's not really different enough for me to consider it a completely different experience either.

That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.

[Rogue Karl]

Because that is the way Bind on Equip has always worked?

Can you provide a example?

In terms of power all that comes to mind is lions heals and it never worked like this.

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I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation

Whiskeyjac area 52

Only been back about six weeks so just pug raids but you can see my load out.

[dacoolist]

I'm with @nocturnus on this. A more difficult experience of the same dungeon or raid doesn't make it a "different" experience, IMO. It's the same dungeon, same aesthetics, same enemies, etc... you just do things a little differently each time you're in there because now the enemies blow up when you kill them, or run away at low health, or have more health, etc...

That's really not that dissimilar of an experience than doing the same dungeon on the same difficulty with a completely different set of players each time, making each run a little unique from each other.

Granted, it's not exactly the SAME, but it's not really different enough for me to consider it a completely different experience either.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm sorry a m0 is a totally different experience than a m16, hell a m15 is different than a 16 LOL - I get I'm kind of talking about difficulty, but uhhh when you go in on m0 and litearlly just hit whirlwind or whatever AOE you have and everything is instantly killed, you go in on a 10 and do that bs without a tank and you instantly DIE - I mean you have to understand what EACH MOB does what their toolkits are how to CC how to dodge what the tanks doing how to beat the time, how to work with a team.. most peope here are complaining about a game they DONT EVEN PLAY lol.

Personally I think if people don't like wow, it's time to hang up the mantle and go play fortnite - that's what all the COOL KIDS are doing these days

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Can you provide a example?

In terms of power all that comes to mind is lions heals and it never worked like this.

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Whiskeyjac area 52

Only been back about six weeks so just pug raids but you can see my load out.

appreciate it good sir

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That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.

Agreed, and I get that PVP is obviously player driven - but it's like LOL, M0 is almost a different game than even M5 or M10

[rhorle]

Can you provide a example?

Every single Bind on Equip item has allowed people to buy power. It shouldn't matter that the power that can be bought is now bigger then before.

[Katchii]

That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.

You're right.

The thing that makes some of those different ENOUGH (for me at least), are the aesthetics and the context of it. Every boss fight in the game can be boiled down to "do mechanics, don't die, blow up boss until it drops loot" but the aesthetics of what's going on in the fight make it FEEL and LOOK different even when the fight's are literally identical. That perception is incredibly important.

Obviously most have different mechanics, so they ARE different fights both aesthetically and mechanically. However, when it comes to Mythic+ they're not even different fights, overall they have the same mechanics and they have identical aesthetics, there's just a little spice added to the rest of the dungeon to make it more difficult.

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I get where you're coming from, but I'm sorry a m0 is a totally different experience than a m16, hell a m15 is different than a 16 LOL - I get I'm kind of talking about difficulty, but uhhh when you go in on m0 and litearlly just hit whirlwind or whatever AOE you have and everything is instantly killed, you go in on a 10 and do that bs without a tank and you instantly DIE - I mean you have to understand what EACH MOB does what their toolkits are how to CC how to dodge what the tanks doing how to beat the time, how to work with a team.. most peope here are complaining about a game they DONT EVEN PLAY lol.

Personally I think if people don't like wow, it's time to hang up the mantle and go play fortnite - that's what all the COOL KIDS are doing these days

Agreed, and I get that PVP is obviously player driven - but it's like LOL, M0 is almost a different game than even M5 or M10

And I completely understand where you're coming from. Because you ARE doing something different, by virtue of the difficulty, it's a different experience for you. For me, that's just not enough to make it interesting or different ENOUGH.

For me, it's like playing any other game on different difficulty settings. It's not a different game, the story is not different, the aesthetics aren't different, the enemies aren't different they just act differently so you have to play differently. That difference is not enough to make me want to play it again, after I've beaten it on Normal.

[Rogue Karl]

Every single Bind on Equip item has allowed people to buy power. It shouldn't matter that the power that can be bought is now bigger then before.

Except it does... there is a world of difference between buying a blue starter pvp or pve item and something that adds the same strength as gaining a additional trinket slot.

The only way any item that is 440 with infinite stars or another good corruption is replaced is with a item with the same procs. A 35 ilv difference isn't as big as a good rng.

I refuse to believe that mythic gear being VASTLY inferior to world quest rewards isn't new and impactful. To pretend otherwise is folly.

[nocturnus]

I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation

Please, show me where I said it's "exactly the same experience".

How about you surf back a few pages and actually read what we've been discussing, rather than pretending to know what the conversation is about in an attempt to participate.

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That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.

Every experience is marginally different; if you make lasagne today it will be every so slightly different than the lasagne you'll make next week. It's not a completely new dish though; you're still eating lasagne.

Now imagine eating the same few dishes for months. I don't know about you, but I'd be nauseated merely by the thought of any of those dishes. Adding some new ingredients or seasonings wouldn't be enough for me to consider it a new and refreshing dish.

Now consider the fact that wow dungeons and raids are generally similar to begin with and the game's selling point is based on treadmill behaviour [which indirectly drives you to repeat content beyond enjoyment], it's even more important that there's enough variety.

My hypothesis is simple: M+ dungeons have become massive grind many people do for loot. People, generally don't like grinds, ergo they want to get in and get out as fast as possible. How can you accomplish that? By making damn sure everyone in the group has enough experience and gear to minimise risk of failure.

Am I a 100% correct? Fuck if I know, it's a hypothesis, after all.

[rhorle]

Except it does... there is a world of difference between buying a blue starter pvp or pve item and something that adds the same strength as gaining a additional trinket slot.

Every content tier has had BoE drop. Which means people were buying epics and obviously they were upgrades for someone because people were buying them. If it is a problem now then it should have already been a problem then. Because buying power is buying power. It shouldn't only be a problem to buy power when you can potentially buy a powerful proc.

[Rogue Karl]

Every content tier has had BoE drop. Which means people were buying epics and obviously they were upgrades for someone because people were buying them. If it is a problem now then it should have already been a problem then. Because buying power is buying power. It shouldn't only be a problem to buy power when you can potentially buy a powerful proc.

It's the difference between something being a good starting item being almost or even slightly better then what the raid drops for that slot by a few percentages vs something that flat out buffs your output by upwards of 10%.

Even with the most powerful of crafted items like lions helm or the darkmoon faire cards nothing has come this close in terms of power rewarded solely by luck of the dice or cashing in massive amounts of gold.

Is it pay to win? I would say yes myself as even if your selling carries odds are a token is paying for the drop in some way.

Regardless it is horrid game design. Your class shouldn't just not work because you didn't get a lucky loot box style proc.

[Niwes]

Do you think it decided it for the ones who truly are and were the best in the past...like where it "matters" at the top of pvp or raiding? From Death&Taxes to Ensidia, SKGaming, Paragon, Method, Limit...was it all only "millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash" - or were these ppl just insanely good anyhow?

And if it matters, it matters because somebody created the game and can set the rules as they want. You / we can decide to go with it or not.

...and I don't even want to bring RL into this anymore..where you truly get fucked and can cry "is this fair" all you want and literally the universe does not care.

But this is a game...this is your hobby. This is not water or air or food or shelter that you desperately need to survive. This is a game where a company sets the rules. Protest against them? Fine...you can and you should. But at the end of the day, you decide if you put down your money and waste your limited time on this planet inside this game...or you don't....

in the end this completely doesnt matter. because with 1% of your customers (the elite, method, etc), even with the best cash grab systems in the world, you never will make much profit.

paying gear, or paid runs, or whatever, for money, is made for the mid ground masses, not the extremes. there is the money.

so, regardless what someones oppinion is, the elite have a good marketing effect, to attract ppl („look at method, i wanna be this guy“ as extreme, take not to serious, example). but you not make money with them.

[rhorle]

It's the difference between something being a good starting item being almost or even slightly better then what the raid drops for that slot by a few percentages vs something that flat out buffs your output by upwards of 10%.

But that is irrelevant to BoE's being pay to win. Just because it is a super upgrade doesn't make it any different then using gold, token, etc to buy a different BoE. Also your class very much does still work with out the best corruption. The is a difference between not working and best dps.

[Rogue Karl]

But that is irrelevant to BoE's being pay to win. Just because it is a super upgrade doesn't make it any different then using gold, token, etc to buy a different BoE. Also your class very much does still work with out the best corruption. The is a difference between not working and best dps.

10 to 14% in higher end content is your class working or not. I don't really see why you feel compelled to defend this practice.

I suspect it simply doesn't effect you and you like the concept of gaining extremely powerful game breaking items.

I can just see the harm of making extremely rare items be the gate keeping mechanic preventing players from clearing harder content.

You can not finish this tier without ideal or near ideal corruption rolls. That itself should be setting off red flags.

I have zero desire for wows end game to turn into who can spend the most gold or get lucky enough to get in.