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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Agreed. If something is being bought from another player, it's an automatic disqualifier from pay2win.
    exactly. You don't buy ANY of that stuff from Blizzard. You buy from other players that are doing it on their own time with their own skill and ressources. Blizzard only tried to cash in on goldselling that would be happening anyways, with or without the token
    You don't buy achievements with gold, you pay other players to do them with you.
    You don't buy corruption items from blizzard, buy them from players that are willing to sell them (and they need to drop first)

    Pay2win games have shops that sell these things directly via money to the player. If you pay another player, then they have to be able to clear it and you're not guaranteed anything, since they can fail

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I agree that its general pros and cons have been done to death. However, the point I was making is that it's somewhat hypocritical to claim "just let people play how they want. What harm is there?" in an in-game reality where that very right to "play how you want" was denied to some players. A situation that was caused, at least in part, by outcry from a vocal minority who felt that they not only deserved to play how they wanted, but that everyone else should have to play the same way they desired.

    I don't believe that's worth dismissing out of hand on this topic.
    First of all, you don't have any data, whatsoever, that confirms your assumption that it was the "vocal minority" that wanted ML removed. Secondly, the problem with ML was that one or a small group of people, had the power to decide whether an individual was worthy of a reward which often resulted in a ridiculous power play and conflicts of interest.

    As I said, this subject is beaten to a pulp and we shouldn't waste any more bandwidth on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You yourself have said that you haven't played in quite some time. Have you played since the introduction of M+? Are you aware of how it works? A person who is "bored" with M+ can just turn up the dials and get a new experience. A player who is geared enough to run a +15 has only one reason to run lower keys: Helping a friend or guildy.
    I've done M+, yes. It seems we have very different standards; turning up the dial doesn't result in a "new experience". It's the same instance, with the same enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This is not the case in 99% of the runs that are requesting two to three times the needed gear for a run. That level of entitlement and elitism is not caused by boredom. It's directly caused by wanting access to gear that they can not otherwise achieve on their own merits.
    99% of the runs? If we start pulling fake statistics from our bum, we might as well stop talking. Again, this is your hypothesis. You've already said it a few times, I just don't agree with you. You blame "elitism" or "entitlement" but what are you complaining about exactly? Do you think that people shouldn't be allowed to make demands on who they choose to play with? Do you feel left out of groups for the 'wrong' reasons?

    I think (hypothesis) that people just stop enjoying content after their fiftieth clear, regardless of the marginal changes in difficulty due to affixes and want to get in and get out as fast as possible and I don't blame them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    But that's exactly what adding an EZ-mode to a game like Dark Souls would do.
    No, that's absolutely not what it would do. This isn't even up for discussion; it's a fact. Removing the normal difficulty would be "taking it away". Adding something, wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    There would be a massive influx of players who would not understand the original value of the game. Yes, I realize this borders on elitism, because that's what it sounds like. But It would be like putting a robe on Michelangelo's "David" so that people who are offended by nudity would have an easier time viewing the art.
    No, it doesn't border on elitism, it is elitism plain and simple which is ironic, considering you're complaining about it in wow.

    If there would be a "massive influx" of players (which you don't know for a fact) that wouldn't understand the original value (subjective, but whatever) of the game, it shouldn't affect you and if it does, you need to look in the mirror ans ask yourself: Why do I care so much about how others experience anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's a business after all. But when it starts coming at the expense of what made the game good in the first place, there's a problem.
    Ah and that's the issue, isn't it? What made the game good, is subjective. The hardcore raider is what, between 2 and 4% of wow's player base? If you'd change the game based on what they think is good, wow would probably struggle to survive another year.

    I think it's quite safe to say that while wow might have lost its appeal to the vocal minority dwelling on mmo-c, it became more accissible to the masses. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    The only correct answer is: It depends on who you ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And now I often see people literally asking for P2W elements to be added to the game so they don't have to grind, or work, or deal with RNG.
    I know, those people kinda suck. But who cares? It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game.

    Remember the green fire warlock quest? I know people that paid others to do the fight for them. Ridiculous, right? That quest was one of the few actually epic experience is wow. But the fact that people were selling it didn't bother me at all for it didn't affect my experience of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Possible. But consider how many people would also take that easy way out if the option was available.
    Weak people, yes and again, who gives a flying fuck about what other people do if it doesn't affect you?

    Mate, stop being so preoccupied with how others choose to play their games.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    because that's what the game was meant to be! And if that option was available, the game would not have the same effect on its audience.
    Until it's not. And no, I'm part of Dark Souls' audience and the game wouldn't change in any way, shape or form for me.

    Do you even know how many glitches there were that allowed you to completely overpower basically every encounter? Or cheats and trainers? Did the fact that douchebags use those glitches and cheats to kill bosses affect you in any way? No, right? So why care?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Then you would be incorrect. Doom was designed from the ground up with different difficulty settings. Dark Souls games were not. And they were not for a very specific reason. Doom is a power fantasy. You run through demons like a god of war. You are SUPPOSED to win. There is no consequence for being killed. Souls games are almost the complete opposite. You win despite your weakness. If you die, you are harshly punished.
    It doesn't matter wether it was designed with varibale difficulties from the ground up. In fact, Dark Souls does have difficulty options of sorts built into it in the class selection screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And I think that's where I rest: WoW is not changing to be a better game. It's increasingly obvious, to me, that it's changing to be a better profit generator, further and further monetizing the remaining players that are still subscribed. But I don't view that as a good thing. Maybe it's necessary to keep the game alive in a modern market. I don't know. I just know that I dislike those elements immensely, and firmly believe the game would be more enjoyable for everyone without the pressure to monetize every aspect of it.
    I honestly couldn't give you a well formulated opinion on the question wether wow has become better or worse. I stopped enjoying it, true. But I don't know wether it's because the game has devolved or I outgrew it.

    Good chat as always, mate.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-03-02 at 11:14 AM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    exactly. You don't buy ANY of that stuff from Blizzard. You buy from other players that are doing it on their own time with their own skill and ressources. Blizzard only tried to cash in on goldselling that would be happening anyways, with or without the token
    You don't buy achievements with gold, you pay other players to do them with you.
    You don't buy corruption items from blizzard, buy them from players that are willing to sell them (and they need to drop first)

    Pay2win games have shops that sell these things directly via money to the player. If you pay another player, then they have to be able to clear it and you're not guaranteed anything, since they can fail
    But, but, but, you can buy gold to buy the thing from the player. I'm sure that argument has already been floated out there.

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I've done M+, yes. It seems we have very different standards; turning up the dial doesn't result in a "new experience". It's the same instance, with the same enemies.
    The same instance with the same enemies, but which act and react in different ways that cause you to change how you approach each encounter and boss differently. In many ways it's like a NG+ mode, which I believe was the intent. The appearance may be the same on the surface, but the encounters are sometimes VERY different.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    99% of the runs? If we start pulling fake statistics from our bum, we might as well stop talking. Again, this is your hypothesis. You've already said it a few times, I just don't agree with you. You blame "elitism" or "entitlement" but what are you complaining about exactly? Do you think that people shouldn't be allowed to make demands on who they choose to play with? Do you feel left out of groups for the 'wrong' reasons?

    I think (hypothesis) that people just stop enjoying content after their fiftieth clear, regardless of the marginal changes in difficulty due to affixes and want to get in and get out as fast as possible and I don't blame them.
    Careful now. You went from rightly calling me out for hyperbole, straight into making this personal by suggesting I'm feeling left out.

    I don't dispute that people should be able to form groups how they so choose. What I'm pointing out is that the reasons behind the steady increase in ridiculous requirements for those groups are being influenced by expectations of wanting loot without actually having to work for it. Something which is at the very heart of purchasing gold via the token!


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    No, that's absolutely not what it would do. This isn't even up for discussion; it's a fact. Removing the normal difficulty would be "taking it away". Adding something, wouldn't.
    Including an easy setting for a game like Dark Souls has the effect of invalidating the very thing that makes the game what it is. We can swap out descriptors all day long. The "fact" is that Dark Souls would not be what it is without the difficulty barrier to overcome. It would be something VERY different from what set it apart as such an amazing series of games in the first place.

    But this is another tangent. We're not even debating wow anymore on this topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    No, it doesn't border on elitism, it is elitism plain and simple which is ironic, considering you're complaining about it in wow.

    If there would be a "massive influx" of players (which you don't know for a fact) that wouldn't understand the original value (subjective, but whatever) of the game, it shouldn't affect you and if it does, you need to look in the mirror ans ask yourself: Why do I care so much about how others experience anything?
    Because by attempting to create a product which appeals to everyone, it ends up appealing to no one. Or at best, only appeals to the lowest common denominator, resulting in an exceedingly bland and flavorless product.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Ah and that's the issue, isn't it? What made the game good, is subjective. The hardcore raider is what, between 2 and 4% of wow's player base? If you'd change the game based on what they think is good, wow would probably struggle to survive another year.

    I think it's quite safe to say that while wow might have lost its appeal to the vocal minority dwelling on mmo-c, it became more accissible to the masses. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
    Do not assume that I am an advocate for the hardcore raiding scene. When I used the phrase "what made the game good in the first place", I was referring to creativity, passion, innovation, and the like. Current day wow is overly formulaic, uncreative, bogged down with systems instead of content, and more or less afflicted by the thing Steve Jobs describes in his video about why companies sometimes fail.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I know, those people kinda suck. But who cares? It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game.

    Remember the green fire warlock quest? I know people that paid others to do the fight for them. Ridiculous, right? That quest was one of the few actually epic experience is wow. But the fact that people were selling it didn't bother me at all for it didn't affect my experience of it.
    I think that what you're saying makes a lot of sense in the very limited scope of a single class-based quest chain. But when taken up to the scope of the fundamental aspect of the game, that EVERY character uses to progress(Gold and Gearing), can you really say that the results are the same? When the server economy is being warped by whales overpaying for everything? When groups increasingly ask for more and more rediculous requirements? When people withdraw from the public grouping system in favor of only playing with friends and guildies because they don't want to deal with these types of things?

    You say it doesn't effect you. But I say that it can and will, if left to fester like it has been over the past few expansions.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Weak people, yes and again, who gives a flying fuck about what other people do if it doesn't affect you?

    Mate, stop being so preoccupied with how others choose to play their games.
    Because WoW is a community game. MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. As people are so fond of throwing in my face: It's not a solo experience.

    I'm done arguing this topic. We're going in circles anyway. You seem to want to believe that every man is an island, and that nothing anyone else does can possible effect the larger whole. I think you're outright wrong, and either can't or won't see it.

    Whatever, the game will continue to turn into a watered down pile of toxic mush at the rate it's going. And the games industry as a whole is following suit. It's going to get worse before it gets better. EA showed us that.

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Essentially, yes. If it's not bothering anyone is there an actual problem?



    No it doesn't. That's the whole point I am making. There is absolutely zero requirement for mythic progression to go out there and buy BoE epics off the AH. Furthermore even if one wanted to, there isn't even a requirement to buy tokens to do so.



    No, I am not arguing the semantics of pay to win. I am arguing that one shouldn't attach a pejorative label to a feature unless there's an actual problem.



    Until you actually play the game without resorting to buying ridiculously expensive BoE's and realise that you're doing just fine.

    The biggest issue here is people massively hyperbolising a need for something based on what is theoretically possible rather than what happens in practice. For example being paranoid that you're going to lose your raid spot to another player who is worse than you but willing to spend $2000 on tokens to buy BoE epics.
    It's just it does act as a roadblock in mythic.. pvp to. A good corruption is worth more then a trinket slot. I'm using a 450 pvp item with my lowest being a 465 and 475s next to it and that 450 is worth more dps then any other piece...

    I find your hand waving away of that puzzling. I have to assume you don't raid past heroic or maybe a mythic 15.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or you can just make a GOOD product, and trust that people will respond to it. The Witcher 3. God of War. Sekiro(yes I know Activision published it, but they didn't MAKE it). Your mistake is in believing the same thing that ATVI does: That you have to make ALL the money at the expense of everything else, including reputation and quality.
    Eve comes to mind. It is good? Well, it is still around so it must be making money. But it does not seem to have been the same level of success as WoW in terms of players and revenue.

  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Bolding words doesn't serve any point. The shakeweight is a poor product if it doesn't do what it claims. There are also clothing stores like Foreever 21 that earned the motto wash and and toss because they didn't last. They were still popular for a time even though the company is now in bankruptcy. Marketing certainly can change duds. Like Head-on which rose to fame because of a viral commercial. I didn't use my definition of the product. I used the fact that it doesn't work to meet its claims like much of the fad fitness category of products. They don't rely on quality they rely on viral marketing and infomercials to sell the product and make a quick profit.

    You may want to brush up on your insults and derrgatory terms as well. Goldfish do not have short memories. https://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish...d-memory-myth/

    "Customer trust" is irrelevant to video games. How many times have people hated on EA or other video game companies and yet they still sell a ton of products? Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter about cash grabs, trust, of quality. What matters is are people willing to pay to play. It is why low budget poor quality mobile games can still make more money then a AAA high quality game.
    And this is where you are wrong, any movement that uses your muscles burns calories. Efficiency however is another matter so you cannot say it doesn't work.
    So yes you used your definition of bad product. For me bad product is for example something that doesn't work at all or breaks fast.

    You want some examples? Lets go.

    Cheap power supplies that can destroy rest of your PCs - a lot of people say they are bad products, there is even a blacklist, however they are used in a lot of cheap setups and they can work in such environment because rest of PC is not power hungry enough.

    Cheap speakers This is prime example of how low quality can be good, people say they are bad because they produce low quality sound but they do work and it's not like they break.

    Cheap USB cables - are they bad products? They do work, however they wear faster than heavy duty ones. In my company we used tons of usb cables, average lifespan of 1$ cable is week at best. So for us, they are bad products not worth the price.

    IPL hair removal - for some people it simply doesn't work. Hard to say the exact percentage but you cannot say it doesn't work.


    and I am well aware goldfish doesn't have short memory, i just like that term.

    And you seems to be mistaking audiences. Just because some random dude on internet hates on EA doesn't mean other people hate on them as well. Vast majority of people only measure games as "is it fun? Am I having fun playing it?" and maybe "Was it worth the price?". I for one, don't care about microtransactions, loot boxes. I literally couldn't care less. And even when I deem game worth enough I pay for microtransactions.

    This is a good one (remove space beacuse for some reason forum removes the link)
    https://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_notable_for_negative_reception#Final_Fantasy_XIV_(2010)

    Yoshida stated that they felt it was necessary to rebuild the game from the ground up to regain the trust that they lost from fans of the series for the original game, and not strictly as a business decision.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2020-03-02 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The same instance with the same enemies, but which act and react in different ways that cause you to change how you approach each encounter and boss differently. In many ways it's like a NG+ mode, which I believe was the intent. The appearance may be the same on the surface, but the encounters are sometimes VERY different.
    Very different? Well, again, we have very different standards. Instance X is instance X, wether there's random puddles of blood, volcanos, skittish mobs or a boss with more HP, it's still instance X. Superficial, variable difficulty discrepancies aren't equal to new content.

    But again, this is all subjective. If a change in affixes is enough for you to enjoy repeating the same content over and over, all power to you!
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Careful now. You went from rightly calling me out for hyperbole, straight into making this personal by suggesting I'm feeling left out.
    I didn't suggest anything; I asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't dispute that people should be able to form groups how they so choose. What I'm pointing out is that the reasons behind the steady increase in ridiculous requirements for those groups are being influenced by expectations of wanting loot without actually having to work for it. Something which is at the very heart of purchasing gold via the token!
    I don't agree with your point of view. They are - in fact - working for it; they're spending time to form a group that fullfils their requirements and they're actually clearing the content. Merely because they don't comply to your definition of "working for it", doesn't make their approach invalid.

    Again, you're worrying too much about how others play the game and your projecting your view of how the game "should be played" onto others. If you want to play a game in particular way, gopher it. Just don't attempt to force others into the same route.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Including an easy setting for a game like Dark Souls has the effect of invalidating the very thing that makes the game what it is. We can swap out descriptors all day long. The "fact" is that Dark Souls would not be what it is without the difficulty barrier to overcome.
    I disagree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls would be the exact same game to me, if there'd been an easy mode for it;.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Because by attempting to create a product which appeals to everyone, it ends up appealing to no one. Or at best, only appeals to the lowest common denominator, resulting in an exceedingly bland and flavorless product.
    Why are you assuming Blizzard or any other developer, wants to creat a product that appeals to everyone?

    I hate to break it to you, but the "lowest common denominator" is not who you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think that what you're saying makes a lot of sense in the very limited scope of a single class-based quest chain. But when taken up to the scope of the fundamental aspect of the game, that EVERY character uses to progress(Gold and Gearing), can you really say that the results are the same? When the server economy is being warped by whales overpaying for everything? When groups increasingly ask for more and more rediculous requirements? When people withdraw from the public grouping system in favor of only playing with friends and guildies because they don't want to deal with these types of things?

    You say it doesn't effect you. But I say that it can and will, if left to fester like it has been over the past few expansions.
    I think you're being overly dramatic again; most people don't buy 500 euro worth of gold, for a few auction house pieces of loot.

    People are not withdrawing from public grouping. If anything, people are grouping up more than ever thanks to the tools developers gave them to facilitate the logistic procedures.

    You're projecting your personal experiences and the way you interpret individual changes onto the game and its community. Not unlike people who kept shouting 'wow is dying' merely because they were gradually losing interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Because WoW is a community game. MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. As people are so fond of throwing in my face: It's not a solo experience.
    Nonsense. Wow can be a solo experience if you want it to be.

    I strongly advise you to stop projecting your opinion on what games are or should be, onto others and find a game that's in line with your point of view, rather forcing one that isn't up your alley.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-03-02 at 03:07 PM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    It's just it does act as a roadblock in mythic.. pvp to. A good corruption is worth more then a trinket slot. I'm using a 450 pvp item with my lowest being a 465 and 475s next to it and that 450 is worth more dps then any other piece...
    So what? Did you have to spend $$ to buy that corruption? No. No one has to. It's nice to have the option to buy a BoE, for which any serious guild can find the gold. It's also nice to have the option of spending $$ if you are so inclined. But the fact is that it is an option that very few will ever excercise due to supply limitations. And because so few people will be making use of them, the requirement to buy them in order to be competitive is null and void, unless you're at the very top end and need every little advantage you can get to beat the next team. And even then, because you buy them with gold, not $$, there is still no need to spend $$, as was proven by Method and Limit who did spend loads of gold to buy the few available early BoEs, but didn't buy even a single token to do so.

    For the most part though, these BoEs are a by-product of successful raiders, not a requirement to successfully raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I find your hand waving away of that puzzling. I have to assume you don't raid past heroic or maybe a mythic 15.
    I am not hand waving anything away. I am differentiating between the need for decent corruptions, and the need for spending $$ to get them.

  10. #830
    pay to win for Method and Limit only, for normal people no not really..I mean technically you -COULD- but nobody really gives a shit about parses anymore.
    Hi Sephurik

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Maybe it's because I'm right. Let's see:

    Anthem.
    Fallout 76.
    Battlefront 2.
    WoD
    BfA
    Warcraft 3 Reforged
    No Man's Sky(arguably has been corrected)
    Aliens Colonial Marines
    Diablo 3's launch
    WWE 2k20
    Red Dead Online


    I could go on. There are so many bad AAA games out there that I wonder that your claim of there being "no point in arguing against your mindset" is that you don't want to admit just how bad some of these games are. You claimed that there are better products. How about you list some? I can think of a few, if you can't. The Witcher 3. God of War(2018). Sekiro.
    I don't get the point of these lists... every year there are AAA duds and gems... it's the same as always. To me it hasn't gotten worse. I also find it odd that Fallout 76 somehow is a milestone for Bethesda when all their games have been a buggy mess saved by mods. To me counting it now requires to count every Bethesda game in the past so I guess +-0?

    To list some good games:
    Tomb Raider series
    Doom 2016
    Dark souls 3 and series in general
    Alien Isolation
    AoE II Remastered
    Resident evil 2 remake
    Death Stranding
    Read Dead Redemption 2 - if we count online as a bad thing we have to count main game as a good thing.
    Diablo III RoS - same as above
    Witcher 3
    God of War
    Sekiro
    Horizon Zero Dawn
    Kingdom Hearts 3
    Devil May Cry 5
    Monster Hunter World: Iceborne
    Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order
    Control
    Gears 5
    The Surge 2
    Shenmue 3
    Planet Zoo
    Metro Exodus
    Spider-Man ps4


    Etc etc... the thing is that you find shit if you look for shit and you can find good stuff if you look for it. Also making a list of horrible games is very subjective unless we talk about straight up broken ones... Broken ones have been with us since Atari and the first games ever were to happen. Even in the "golden age" of gaming you got broken games but instead people played the good ones rather than complaining about bad ones.

    Almost every year we get awesome games and I can only speculate that people see their IP fall down into a rut, because the more games you create the bigger chance you will eventually create a dud; Lets face it, somehow takes it as the general quality everywhere is going down.

    Then we have things such as FIFA games. I know they get a lot of flack but they sell really well and people who enjoy those games are satisfied and they seem to work for the most part... they should be on that list to even if I don't like them and they have other issues such as lootboxes, but the game itself plays really well and brings tons of enjoyment for millions I would say.

    I'm having problems that march and april will cost me lots of money on games because there are couple of games
    Doom Eternal, Ori and will of the wisp (not AAA but still), FF7 remake (demo dropped today) and RE3 remake then we have Cyberpunk later this year and there's probably tons of other games that I'm not aware of that others are excited for.

    Then we also have to take into account that gaming has become much bigger than it used to be... more people are making games, which means more good games and also more bad games. Couple that with internets need to rant about things they find bad just exaggerates.

    Side note: Fallout 76 is kind of unfair, not because it's shit because it is...but Bethesda has released BROKEN games since the Morrowind days. Their quality has been shit from the start... so to me, their games have been the bad example in gaming news for every time they have been released. I know you will probably argue that other games are well received and that's what matters, which is true and the point. It's very subjective so a list is kind of meh, especially when we move from titles that aren't objectively broken, such as WoD and BfA because regardless if they are well received or not, they work and function and plenty of people enjoy them.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2020-03-02 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    As long as people don't act like this was some diabolical/intentional act by Blizz. At the end of the day, these are player sold items that have nothing to do with Blizz. Someone could theoretically sell a top tier Corruption BoE or 1-10k gold and no one would be crying about P2W. The amount of people paying $200+ to buy a single BoE is infinitely smaller than most P2W heralds seem think. These items are being sold primarily to the vast amount of players/guilds in the game that have asinine amounts of gold that they've been stockpiling.

    "But it's still P2W. They could pay $200 and get a 15% dps increase". Sure, but what's going to happen later this year? What's going to happen when all of this is stripped away and ceases to exist? What's going to happen when the value of these BoE's goes down, and starts selling for a fraction of the price? What if you logged in on Tuesday and Blizz nerfed these 1mil+ traits by 80%?

    I understand the feeling that, a powerful item COULD be bought with money. However, anything in this game can be bought with money, and this supposed outlier is no different. Players create various economies in WoW, whether or not a specific sector is legal through Blizz's terms. Players also created the demand for the illegal gold selling industry and RMT, both things that cause a lot of headaches for Blizz. Blizz did not create any of these issues, they did not present the game with potential P2W situations, that was the playerbases doing.
    This should've been th end of the discussion.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    So what? Did you have to spend $$ to buy that corruption? No. No one has to. It's nice to have the option to buy a BoE, for which any serious guild can find the gold. It's also nice to have the option of spending $$ if you are so inclined. But the fact is that it is an option that very few will ever excercise due to supply limitations. And because so few people will be making use of them, the requirement to buy them in order to be competitive is null and void, unless you're at the very top end and need every little advantage you can get to beat the next team. And even then, because you buy them with gold, not $$, there is still no need to spend $$, as was proven by Method and Limit who did spend loads of gold to buy the few available early BoEs, but didn't buy even a single token to do so.

    For the most part though, these BoEs are a by-product of successful raiders, not a requirement to successfully raid.



    I am not hand waving anything away. I am differentiating between the need for decent corruptions, and the need for spending $$ to get them.
    Do you find it odd how you say it's pointless then immediately provide an example were it isn't?

    Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?
    Because that is the way Bind on Equip has always worked?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #835
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Very different? Well, again, we have very different standards. Instance X is instance X, wether there's random puddles of blood, volcanos, skittish mobs or a boss with more HP, it's still instance X. Superficial, variable difficulty discrepancies aren't equal to new content.

    But again, this is all subjective. If a change in affixes is enough for you to enjoy repeating the same content over and over, all power to you!

    I didn't suggest anything; I asked.


    I don't agree with your point of view. They are - in fact - working for it; they're spending time to form a group that fullfils their requirements and they're actually clearing the content. Merely because they don't comply to your definition of "working for it", doesn't make their approach invalid.

    Again, you're worrying too much about how others play the game and your projecting your view of how the game "should be played" onto others. If you want to play a game in particular way, gopher it. Just don't attempt to force others into the same route.


    I disagree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls would be the exact same game to me, if there'd been an easy mode for it;.


    Why are you assuming Blizzard or any other developer, wants to creat a product that appeals to everyone?

    I hate to break it to you, but the "lowest common denominator" is not who you think it is.


    I think you're being overly dramatic again; most people don't buy 500 euro worth of gold, for a few auction house pieces of loot.

    People are not withdrawing from public grouping. If anything, people are grouping up more than ever thanks to the tools developers gave them to facilitate the logistic procedures.

    You're projecting your personal experiences and the way you interpret individual changes onto the game and its community. Not unlike people who kept shouting 'wow is dying' merely because they were gradually losing interest.


    Nonsense. Wow can be a solo experience if you want it to be.

    I strongly advise you to stop projecting your opinion on what games are or should be, onto others and find a game that's in line with your point of view, rather forcing one that isn't up your alley.
    I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation

  16. #836
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Do you find it odd how you say it's pointless then immediately provide an example were it isn't?

    Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?
    Do you think it decided it for the ones who truly are and were the best in the past...like where it "matters" at the top of pvp or raiding? From Death&Taxes to Ensidia, SKGaming, Paragon, Method, Limit...was it all only "millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash" - or were these ppl just insanely good anyhow?

    And if it matters, it matters because somebody created the game and can set the rules as they want. You / we can decide to go with it or not.

    ...and I don't even want to bring RL into this anymore..where you truly get fucked and can cry "is this fair" all you want and literally the universe does not care.

    But this is a game...this is your hobby. This is not water or air or food or shelter that you desperately need to survive. This is a game where a company sets the rules. Protest against them? Fine...you can and you should. But at the end of the day, you decide if you put down your money and waste your limited time on this planet inside this game...or you don't....

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation
    I'm with @nocturnus on this. A more difficult experience of the same dungeon or raid doesn't make it a "different" experience, IMO. It's the same dungeon, same aesthetics, same enemies, etc... you just do things a little differently each time you're in there because now the enemies blow up when you kill them, or run away at low health, or have more health, etc...

    That's really not that dissimilar of an experience than doing the same dungeon on the same difficulty with a completely different set of players each time, making each run a little unique from each other.

    Granted, it's not exactly the SAME, but it's not really different enough for me to consider it a completely different experience either.

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Granted, it's not exactly the SAME, but it's not really different enough for me to consider it a completely different experience either.
    That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because that is the way Bind on Equip has always worked?
    Can you provide a example?

    In terms of power all that comes to mind is lions heals and it never worked like this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I'm actually just replying because tbh I want to see your armory. Someone who tells me a mythic 0 and a mythic 16 is the same exact experience makes me wonder what in the F is even going on in this conversation
    Whiskeyjac area 52

    Only been back about six weeks so just pug raids but you can see my load out.

  20. #840
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm with @nocturnus on this. A more difficult experience of the same dungeon or raid doesn't make it a "different" experience, IMO. It's the same dungeon, same aesthetics, same enemies, etc... you just do things a little differently each time you're in there because now the enemies blow up when you kill them, or run away at low health, or have more health, etc...

    That's really not that dissimilar of an experience than doing the same dungeon on the same difficulty with a completely different set of players each time, making each run a little unique from each other.

    Granted, it's not exactly the SAME, but it's not really different enough for me to consider it a completely different experience either.
    I get where you're coming from, but I'm sorry a m0 is a totally different experience than a m16, hell a m15 is different than a 16 LOL - I get I'm kind of talking about difficulty, but uhhh when you go in on m0 and litearlly just hit whirlwind or whatever AOE you have and everything is instantly killed, you go in on a 10 and do that bs without a tank and you instantly DIE - I mean you have to understand what EACH MOB does what their toolkits are how to CC how to dodge what the tanks doing how to beat the time, how to work with a team.. most peope here are complaining about a game they DONT EVEN PLAY lol.

    Personally I think if people don't like wow, it's time to hang up the mantle and go play fortnite - that's what all the COOL KIDS are doing these days

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Can you provide a example?

    In terms of power all that comes to mind is lions heals and it never worked like this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Whiskeyjac area 52

    Only been back about six weeks so just pug raids but you can see my load out.
    appreciate it good sir

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That seems way to basic. Because everything in the game is going to be the same since nothing is really different enough then. Raiding is the same as 5-mans just enemies now blow up etc. Mythic 0 and Mythic 16 are different for the sole fact that you have affixes versus no affix. Which is the same as a raid boss having abilities versus a quest elite having none.
    Agreed, and I get that PVP is obviously player driven - but it's like LOL, M0 is almost a different game than even M5 or M10

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