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  1. #881
    Unfortunately, for me for the first time in WoW ever since starting back in Vanilla 15 years ago, I feel that indeed it has reached the point where having $$ to spend ingame gives a very real advantage.

    Corruption system suffers from the same issue as early Azerite, where acquisition is way too slow and what is "easier" to get is not optimal at all, despite often being in top difficulty content. EXCEPT, you can now literally buy it off AH, BIS corruption pieces and all.

    For example in my case "Expedient" corruption is simply a boatloads better than almost anything else by a good margin and out of all Expedient items I have - only one was a natural drop for me - the rest AH. The power I bought is very real, no it's not 100% more damage, but it is easy 10-15% right there for what amounts to about 15 tokens worth of gold total for me. For mythic raiding it's a lot.

    Yes, some people may argue semantics there as in "you are not "winning", so it's not Pay2Win" and other nonsense, but frankly that's a very shaky defense - if we even get there, it's already showing things are not very good on that front.

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    And as a side note, people certainly can't claim I'm some Blizz hater or some such. In general I am positive about Blizz and WoW team, but they really have gone and fucked it up this time around.

    I hope we won't have this shit at this magnitude in Shadowlands. They have taken this too far for my tastes.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Well you can craft it but you want to argue a position I suspect you know isn't tenable. I refuse to believe a person here is going to argue in good faith that a 430 wrist or ring should utterly crush a 475 weapon in terms of total dps gained due to a proc.
    which is a problem with corruption balance, still not a p2w issue...

  3. #883
    Top guilds have (or should have) easily tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of gold between them. They don't need to buy tokens for real money to get those couple great BIS items each. They just use the gold.

    Maybe the plebs who have no idea how to make gold in the game do it, who knows. It's their money. And the reason nobody is answering if it's "good gameplay" is because the whole question makes no sense.

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    which is a problem with corruption balance, still not a p2w issue...
    There won't be balance ever, at best things may get close, but putting key random generated power boosts on BoE items is about as bad of a decision as benthic socket. It's even worse, because at least socket benthic you got by playing the game, where as bis corruptions on AH for exorbitant prices you can literally buy with $$.

    I did and I'm not the only one.

  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    WoW is Pay to Lose now.

    When you pay you support the bad design they are doing right now so you either lose the game you once liked by quitting, or you keep playing the crap they do today. There's no winning in this for us.
    Exactly THIS.

    The only thing you do, by buying a Token, is to teach them they can get 7 Euros out of nothing, so they have not to invest 1% more into the game, to get 1 more sub, because they already got 7 Euros for doing nothing.

    Pay to Win in WoW leads nowhere than to a cheap shit, heavy recycled, super cost effective crap, based on cash grab systems, to maximize milking the cow. What you get in the end is cheap shit grind systems, content with recycled old zones, gear „systems“ because they are cheap (only DB Entries and some Code), instead designed expensive content, and so on. Oh wait... we are already there.

    So, if you wanna make wow great again, stop buying Tokens. Or keep on with teaching Blizz that we do not need a good, high quality product, to pay them, and live with fucked up wow expansions.

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    There won't be balance ever, at best things may get close, but putting key random generated power boosts on BoE items is about as bad of a decision as benthic socket. It's even worse, because at least socket benthic you got by playing the game, where as bis corruptions on AH for exorbitant prices you can literally buy with $$.

    I did and I'm not the only one.
    you can get both gold and corrupted items by playing the game... and if you do play you get dozens of corrupted items, problem is randomnes and balance, neither of which have anything to do with p2w...
    and sorry, but BoE items even before corruption were on AH for milions, and powerfull BoE items are thing since vanila, but unlike before now you have guaranteed sources of corrupted items

    and given how corruptions were pretty much all nerfed ( i think TD is last standing strong) people who bought them just wasted gold/money

    i think it cant be p2w as you dont gain power you TRANSFER IT from another player as he has to be wiling to sell the corrupted item, reducing his own power

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    you can get both gold and corrupted items by playing the game... and if you do play you get dozens of corrupted items, problem is randomnes and balance, neither of which have anything to do with p2w...
    and sorry, but BoE items even before corruption were on AH for milions, and powerfull BoE items are thing since vanila, but unlike before now you have guaranteed sources of corrupted items

    and given how corruptions were pretty much all nerfed ( i think TD is last standing strong) people who bought them just wasted gold/money

    i think it cant be p2w as you dont gain power you TRANSFER IT from another player as he has to be wiling to sell the corrupted item, reducing his own power
    What you say is a bunch of mental gymnastics.

    I literally bought my way to the top spot in my guild powerwise along the other members of same class. I took ~400 Eurobucks, tossed it at Blizzard and I have all the corruptions I need and more.

    I never had to do this shit in such a magnitude in past ever, at most I'd buy a couple of tokens for some specific BoE which was mostly a case of impatience as opposed to necessity, because getting a mythic level BoE simply saves you 2-4 weeks before you'd get it anyway to drop, but getting a BoE that has this 2/52 chance corruption that is your absolute BiS is on a whole other level.

    Luckily for me 400 Euros is no biggie and I'm willing to spend on my leisure/hobbies, but it certainly is not OK when you look at it from objective point of view.

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    Heck, I'm not even talking about the quoted shaky argument can be glued to every shitty mobile freemium game ever.

    "What do you mean Pay2Win? You can get this all by playing a game." Yes, yes you can, if you don't mind wasting hundreds of hours on shit activities you don't even enjoy.

  8. #888

  9. #889

    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post

    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    Its business.
    As long as people are stupid enough to pay it will be done.
    Dont blame the evil corporation, blame the moronic public.

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post

    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    gold sink to counteract inflation

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    What you say is a bunch of mental gymnastics.

    I literally bought my way to the top spot in my guild powerwise along the other members of same class. I took ~400 Eurobucks, tossed it at Blizzard and I have all the corruptions I need and more.

    I never had to do this shit in such a magnitude in past ever, at most I'd buy a couple of tokens for some specific BoE which was mostly a case of impatience as opposed to necessity, because getting a mythic level BoE simply saves you 2-4 weeks before you'd get it anyway to drop, but getting a BoE that has this 2/52 chance corruption that is your absolute BiS is on a whole other level.

    Luckily for me 400 Euros is no biggie and I'm willing to spend on my leisure/hobbies, but it certainly is not OK when you look at it from objective point of view.

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    Heck, I'm not even talking about the quoted shaky argument can be glued to every shitty mobile freemium game ever.

    "What do you mean Pay2Win? You can get this all by playing a game." Yes, yes you can, if you don't mind wasting hundreds of hours on shit activities you don't even enjoy.
    It is not mental gymnastics to state the obvious, which is you can get it all by playing and not paying. The mental gymnastics is in trying to argue it is p2w. It simply isn't when you can get it all by playing. The fact you spent that much money to skip playing the game should tell you something else, like you simply do not enjoy the game anymore.

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    Its business.
    As long as people are stupid enough to pay it will be done.
    Dont blame the evil corporation, blame the moronic public.
    That may be, but if this is the way going forward nobody will be able to buy mounts except those enlisted in boosting-communities.
    Quote Originally Posted by muten roshi View Post
    gold sink to counteract inflation
    Should every mount be a gold-sink? Historically there have been very few of those, now it seems baseline more than "goldsink".

  14. #894
    I mean Limit got WF and did pay in gold where world second Method did do rmt, for the rest by the time you had 500 euro spare to buy a bis boe start of the tier show you can be top of the meter in your rank 200 guild who cares.

  15. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/PyrWdB0.png[IMG]
    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    In MoP I had ~10k gold. At the end of Legion I had about 1.5mil.

    That's the reason. WoD and Legion had insane amounts of inflation because of garrison and class halls. At the end of Legion you were raking in 4-12k gold a day per character if they were maxed out.

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    In MoP I had ~10k gold. At the end of Legion I had about 1.5mil.

    That's the reason. WoD and Legion had insane amounts of inflation because of garrison and class halls. At the end of Legion you were raking in 4-12k gold a day per character if they were maxed out.
    Then you are one of very few and wealthy players, I can assure you the vast majority of players dont amass those numbers.

    There were a clik of opportunists that made bank during WoD and Legion, not everybody. So I dont agree with the inflation-argument.

  17. #897
    46 pages of pointless mental gymnastics to philosophise why pay to win isn't pay to win.

    Can you buy BIS items from AH? Yes, you can. Can you buy items from websites for real cash like Diablo 2 days? Yes you can. Are world first guilds power buying the best items across multiple realms in order to gain a competitive advantage? Yes they are. Can you buy gold with real cash used to purchase these items from AH? Yes you can and from Blizzard themselves, who profit more when you do.

    Yes it's pay to win, if that hurts your feelings you can rationalise or mind bend your way around it to make you feel better but that doesn't change the facts or the perception, either way it's not going to change so play or don't play.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2020-10-11 at 03:40 PM.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    46 pages of pointless mental gymnastics to philosophise why pay to win isn't pay to win.

    Can you buy BIS items from AH? Yes, you can. Can you buy items from websites for real cash like Diablo 2 days? Yes you can. Are world first guilds power buying the best items across multiple realms in order to gain a competitive advantage? Yes they are. Can you buy gold with real cash used to purchase these items from AH? Yes you can and from Blizzard themselves, who profit more when you do.

    Yes it's pay to win, if that hurts your feelings you can rationalise or mind bend your way around it to make you feel better but that doesn't change the facts or the perception, either way it's not going to change so play or don't play.

    Then theres no game on this or any other planet that is not pay to win. I find that hard to believe. But by your standards it must be true!

  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Then you are one of very few and wealthy players, I can assure you the vast majority of players dont amass those numbers.

    There were a clik of opportunists that made bank during WoD and Legion, not everybody. So I dont agree with the inflation-argument.
    Obviously not everyone did. I'm terrible at making gold, so I never did, but tons of people made gold hand over fist. In order for that gold to mean something, there have to be items in game to spend it on. Whether you agree with the notion of inflation or not is rather irrelevant. It did happen. If players like you or I didn't take advantage that does not mean that plenty of others missed the boat.

  20. #900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packmule View Post
    Then theres no game on this or any other planet that is not pay to win. I find that hard to believe. But by your standards it must be true!
    I'm not sure the original lunar lander had a way to buy things or pac-man or frogger.

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