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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Obviously not everyone did. I'm terrible at making gold, so I never did, but tons of people made gold hand over fist. In order for that gold to mean something, there have to be items in game to spend it on. Whether you agree with the notion of inflation or not is rather irrelevant. It did happen. If players like you or I didn't take advantage that does not mean that plenty of others missed the boat.
    I guess we're down to either buying the darned wow-token or becoming m+ boosters if we ever want to afford a mount again.

    Just think its a sad development, we have plenty of rare % dropchance mounts. We dont need to overprice vendormounts to keep them "rare".

  2. #902
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post

    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    Because collecting generic look-alike mounts is definitely 'winning' WoW.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    I'm not sure the original lunar lander had a way to buy things or pac-man or frogger.
    With how people comprehend what pay to win is these days, sure u could. You’d pay the best pac-man or frogger player in the world a handfull of money, and he could get a highscore so high nobody could compete.

    Pay to win can litterly be used on ANY game.
    If people think so small minded about it.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Because collecting generic look-alike mounts is definitely 'winning' WoW.
    To a lot of players collecting achievements and adding to collections is their way of "winning" the game yeah, so whats your point?

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Packmule View Post
    Then theres no game on this or any other planet that is not pay to win. I find that hard to believe. But by your standards it must be true!
    Ahh yes I remember passing my bank details over when I won at Street Fighter or in iRacing. Every game is pay to win boys because you have to pay to play.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  6. #906
    The Patient qil's Avatar
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    Players: 150k for Nzoth Heroic
    Also players: evil blizzard! wow is now pay to win!
    Already they plot against us.
    Seize this moment, Varian.
    Dismantle the Horde!

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by qil View Post
    Players: 150k for Nzoth Heroic
    Also players: evil blizzard! wow is now pay to win!
    Wow-token + Overpriced mounts says hi.

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Wow-token + Overpriced mounts says hi.
    PvE win = Clearing Mythic Raids or high-level mythic plus dungeons.
    PvP win = High rank Arenas/Rated BGs.

    Not seeing where mounts fit in.

    Pay-to-win has a simple definition: The developer (Blizzard) selling equipment with stats. Mounts are not pay-to-win. Cosmetics are not pay-to-win. Player-sold loot/runs are not pay-to-win.

    WoW is not pay-to-win and will not be pay-to-win until Blizzard starts selling non-cosmetic equipment.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
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  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    PvE win = Clearing Mythic Raids or high-level mythic plus dungeons.
    PvP win = High rank Arenas/Rated BGs.

    Not seeing where mounts fit in.

    Pay-to-win has a simple definition: The developer selling equipment with stats. Mounts are not pay-to-win. Cosmetics are not pay-to-win. Player-sold loot/runs are not pay-to-win.

    WoW is not pay-to-win and will not be pay-to-win until Blizzard starts selling non-cosmetic equipment.
    Wrong.

    People play the game in more ways than you list.

    To other players than you winning the game can mean completing collections or transmogs.

    So yes WoW is pay to win with the wow-token and the inflated prices for everything in-game at the moment.

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Wrong.

    People play the game in more ways than you list.

    To other players than you winning the game can mean completing collections or transmogs.

    So yes WoW is pay to win with the wow-token and the inflated prices for everything in-game at the moment.
    Just because you're too lazy to make gold any other way than using a credit card does not make any of this P2W.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Just because you're too lazy to make gold any other way than using a credit card does not make any of this P2W.
    Oh and an insult, how classy.

    Just because your love for Blizzard makes you too blind and stubborn to understand it doesnt mean it isnt there.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    I guess we're down to either buying the darned wow-token or becoming m+ boosters if we ever want to afford a mount again.

    Just think its a sad development, we have plenty of rare % dropchance mounts. We dont need to overprice vendormounts to keep them "rare".
    Just because the easy methods are gone doesn't make it impossible. If somebody applies themselves to playing the AH and/or selling in game services, it is still a goal to be accomplished. It may take a while, but it's more than doable. In some ways it's almost like the original sprint to make 1000 gold for the epic mount in Classic. A long term goal that requires careful planning and dedication.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Oh and an insult, how classy.

    Just because your love for Blizzard makes you too blind and stubborn to understand it doesnt mean it isnt there.
    Just because you are blinded by your hatred for Blizzard and too stubborn to understand doesn't mean any of that mount crap is P2W.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  14. #914
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    A lot of us were clearing the old raids for gold, or creating alts to perform a lot of the gold world quests for raw gold - but I kid you not, I have friends with like 10-20M gold just sitting there from WoD Garrisons - the amount of gold people made back then was insanity

    I'm actually surprised Blizz hasn't released a 9M mount for SLands yet

  15. #915
    WOW isn't pay to win but it is Pay2SaveTime. Everything can be obtained by an organic means and there's nothing locked behind a cash purchase so yeah p2W doesnt apply at all really. If I want to buy AOTC to get the Nzoth mount or Mythic Jaina rather than return and spend the time finding a guild and progressing through it then I see absolutely no issue there because it can all still be done without spending a penny.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Wrong.

    People play the game in more ways than you list.

    To other players than you winning the game can mean completing collections or transmogs.

    So yes WoW is pay to win with the wow-token and the inflated prices for everything in-game at the moment.
    Blizzard doesn't sell gold, they sell WoW Tokens. WoW tokens are tradeable game time. The gold used to purchase those tokens already exists in the game as a result of player activity.

    Achievements are not a win-condition, no matter what a player's intentions are. WoW is an MMORPG. Gameplay in WoW is either PvE or PvP. Achievements are a byproduct of these systems and would not exist on their own. One does not win at Xbox just because they have the most achievements. One does not win at Playstation just because they have the most trophies. One does not win at WoW just because they've got a nice collection.

    Anyone can play the game however they want, but your personal goals are just that: Personal goals. They are not in-game win conditions.

    Remember: You can collect all the mounts you want, but you'll never be able to collect as many mounts as someone who has been playing since day one, got the Scarab Lord mount, got the first two Glory mounts, and got any other mounts that were removed from the game... or achievements that were removed from the game... or anything else that was removed from the game. Achievements and collections do not exist on a fair playing field like Raids, Dungeons, and PvP do, nor are they tracked in any official capacity like Raids and PvP are.

    PvE and PvP content are the win conditions. End of story. You can play the game however you want and enjoy it that way, but your personal goals are not the game's win conditions.

    There's no achievement for having all of the achievements. There's no achievement for having all of the available mounts. You might want to think about why that is.

    One last thing to consider: Some players are trolls. They exist to make other players mad. Their sole goal in this game is to piss people off. Are they winning at WoW when they are successful in doing so?
    Last edited by Belloc; 2020-10-11 at 04:32 PM.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Halfaheart View Post
    WOW isn't pay to win but it is Pay2SaveTime. Everything can be obtained by an organic means and there's nothing locked behind a cash purchase so yeah p2W doesnt apply at all really. If I want to buy AOTC to get the Nzoth mount or Mythic Jaina rather than return and spend the time finding a guild and progressing through it then I see absolutely no issue there because it can all still be done without spending a penny.
    You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again

    46 pages of pointless mental gymnastics to philosophise why pay to win isn't pay to win.

    Can you buy BIS items from AH? Yes, you can. Can you buy items from websites for real cash like Diablo 2 days? Yes you can. Are world first guilds power buying the best items across multiple realms in order to gain a competitive advantage? Yes they are. Can you buy gold with real cash used to purchase these items from AH? Yes you can and from Blizzard themselves, who profit more when you do.

    Yes it's pay to win, if that hurts your feelings you can rationalise or mind bend your way around it to make you feel better but that doesn't change the facts or the perception, either way it's not going to change so play or don't play.
    Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

    Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2020-10-11 at 04:32 PM.
    I7 6700K : 16GB DDR4 3000 : GTX1070 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



    Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

    Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.
    Pay-to-win is when Blizzard directly sells equipment that provides an in-game advantage via stats. All Blizzard is selling is game time, which Blizzard has been selling since day one. The only difference now is that you can trade that game time, in-game, for gold.

    Players have always been able to trade game time for gold. I've paid for friend's subs in exchange for gold in the past... I just had to send them money via paypal to do so. The only difference now is that it's easy and safe to trade that game time for gold whereas it used to be risky.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2020-10-11 at 04:39 PM.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Just because the easy methods are gone doesn't make it impossible. If somebody applies themselves to playing the AH and/or selling in game services, it is still a goal to be accomplished. It may take a while, but it's more than doable. In some ways it's almost like the original sprint to make 1000 gold for the epic mount in Classic. A long term goal that requires careful planning and dedication.
    That is probably true, I will join some guildies in boost-communities in SL likely since I dont enjoy playing the AH.

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Just because you are blinded by your hatred for Blizzard and too stubborn to understand doesn't mean any of that mount crap is P2W.
    Oh yeah because being any ounce of critical against anything in the game makes you a "hater", right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Blizzard doesn't sell gold, they sell WoW Tokens. WoW tokens are tradeable game time. The gold used to purchase those tokens already exists in the game as a result of player activity.

    Achievements are not a win-condition, no matter what a player's intentions are. WoW is an MMORPG. Gameplay in WoW is either PvE or PvP. Achievements are a byproduct of these systems and would not exist on their own. One does not win at Xbox just because they have the most achievements. One does not win at Playstation just because they have the most trophies. One does not win at WoW just because they've got a nice collection.

    Anyone can play the game however they want, but your personal goals are just that: Personal goals. They are not in-game win conditions.

    Remember: You can collect all the mounts you want, but you'll never be able to collect as many mounts as someone who has been playing since day one, got the Scarab Lord mount, got the first two Glory mounts, and got any other mounts that were removed from the game... or achievements that were removed from the game... or anything else that was removed from the game. Achievements and collections do not exist on a fair playing field like Raids, Dungeons, and PvP do, nor are they tracked in any official capacity like Raids and PvP are.

    PvE and PvP content are the win conditions. End of story. You can play the game however you want and enjoy it that way, but your personal goals are not the game's win conditions.

    There's no achievement for having all of the achievements. There's no achievement for having all of the available mounts. You might want to think about why that is.

    One last thing to consider: Some players are trolls. They exist to make other players mad. Their sole goal in this game is to piss people off. Are they winning at WoW when they are successful in doing so?
    The WoW token is worth a set amount of gold, so sure they sell gold but they call it a token.

    What you need to understand is that people have different goals in the game.
    What you call winning the game others may not relate to at all.

    There isnt any absolutes with that, a win can be whatever you want it to be.

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    YPay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash
    But it is.
    If you can win without, then paying is just convenience.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

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