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  1. #921
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



    Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

    Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.
    Pay To Win by definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

    " Pay-to-win[edit]
    In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise never be able to access said items. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. Market research indicates that pay-to-win mechanics are considered much more acceptable by players in China than in Western countries, possibly because Chinese players are more habituated to recurring costs associated with gaming, such as gaming café fees.[37]

    A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is for payments to only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[38] For example, some games, such as Dota 2 and StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty, only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a player who has spent money on the game will still be on the same level as a player who has not. Others suggest finding a balance where a game encourages players to pay for extra content that enhances the game without making the free version feel limited by comparison.[39] This theory is that players who do not pay for items would still increase awareness of it through word of mouth marketing, which ultimately benefits the game indirectly.[37][40]

    In response to concerns about players using payments to gain an advantage in the game, titles such as World of Tanks have explicitly committed to not giving paying players any advantages over their non-paying peers, while allowing the users buying the "gold" or "premium" ammo and expendables without paying the real money. However, features affecting gameplay and win rate, such as purchasing a 100% crew training level, a premium account, premium vehicles, and converting experience points to free experience points, remain available for the paying customers only.[41][42]"

    TO me, that translates to if someone purchases something with in an in game shop that has a CLEAR advantage over other people that cannot get said item - it's pay to win. In WoW, I have friends who have had 10-20M gold for 5+ years, and they can buy anything and everything they want all because they played WoD with 50 alts and made so much gold they will likely never have to pay for WoW again. Having gold doesn't make you a world first raider it doesn't make you a rank one gladiator - it just makes it so that you can buy SOME things in game to help you - this isn't pay to win it's pay for ease of access

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    Except there are differences between your two pictures.


    1. One is that you chose a cheap vendor mount vs a mount that is considered a bit pricier. Instead of Crimson Primal Direhorn the Yak would've been more appropriate to compare. Though really the better comparison is the Lightforged Warframe which actually costs more and was an expansion ago.
    2. The 3,000G vendor mount is equivalent to 70,000G mounts now as both types are vendor with reputation mounts
    3. This is suppose to account for gold inflation through time. Back in MoP it was a lot harder to harder gold than it is now. For instance, getting 120,000G for the mount took quite some time (most of the expansion for some) while now earning 120,000G will only take you a week to a few months (vs 2-3 years).
    4. While this one may or may not hold truth people claim it is to still funnel out WoD Garrison gold which doesn't make sense as we have had plenty of gold sinks since then.

    Overall there are still tons of cheap mounts and not every mount you will buy ever. No one is being forced to buy a wow token in order to get mounts. If you do, then that is a decision you made that the amount of time you worked for the token was better spent that way than trying to farm gold and such.

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    That is probably true, I will join some guildies in boost-communities in SL likely since I dont enjoy playing the AH.


    Oh yeah because being any ounce of critical against anything in the game makes you a "hater", right?


    The WoW token is worth a set amount of gold, so sure they sell gold but they call it a token.

    What you need to understand is that people have different goals in the game.
    What you call winning the game others may not relate to at all.

    There isnt any absolutes with that, a win can be whatever you want it to be.
    A player's personal goals are not game's win conditions. A troll isn't winning at WoW just because he's pissing players off.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2020-10-11 at 04:46 PM.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Oh yeah because being any ounce of critical against anything in the game makes you a "hater", right?
    Just like disagreeing with you makes one a lover, right?

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    A player's personal goals are not a game's win conditions. A troll isn't winning at WoW just because he's pissing players off.
    Yes it is, to him it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Just like disagreeing with you makes one a lover, right?
    Your words not mine.

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Yes it is, to him it is.
    Then that player needs to learn the difference between a personal goal and a win condition, because they are not the same thing. Players do not determine the game's win conditions -- developers do.

    I don't get how this is so hard to understand. Having fun is not a win condition. You don't win at Super Mario Bros just because you're getting infinite lives bouncing on a Koopa in a corner. You don't win at Dark Souls just because you've gained enough souls to max out all of your stats. Those are not win conditions. They are fun (or not) personal goals to achieve, but they are not win conditions.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2020-10-11 at 04:50 PM.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



    Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

    Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.
    While I won't really argue with your arguments, since most of them do make at least some kind of sense, however they also show me that you never played an ACTUAL p2w game. You know, free to play, which earns money by selling power upgrades in the shop, where a player who doesn't spend money is literally incapable of reaching power levels that a paying guy does.

    While in WoW you certainly can buy power, however, at least for me, that's kinda irrelevant, since that power is still capped at the same level that a non-paying person can achieve, so...who cares? Plus thanks to the power cap you can't really massively outgear content the way you can in some truly p2w games, so no matter how much money you throw at screen, you still need enough skill to be able to effectively use the "power" you buy, in order to actually "win". So again...the "p2w" aspect of WoW, while it does exist to some extent, is still pretty much irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.
    If the future is female...get ready for apocalypse.

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post

    Your words not mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Just because your love for Blizzard makes you too blind

    Come on, don't lie.

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Then that player needs to learn the difference between a personal goal and a win condition, because they are not the same thing. Players do not determine the game's win conditions -- developers do.
    Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

    Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

    See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Come on, don't lie.
    Those are my words indeed, and I just call it as I see it after seeing your replies.

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

    Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

    See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.
    And all that gold you are too lazy to farm would have helped you to win in what way esxactly?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post

    Those are my words indeed, and I just call it as I see it after seeing your replies.
    Then why would you say it were my words? Your imagination helping you winning borders on delusional it seems.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    And all that gold you are too lazy to farm would have helped you to win in what way esxactly?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then why would you say it were my words? Your imagination helping you winning borders on delusional it seems.
    Win the mount away from the vendor and into my collection?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Then why would you say it were my words? Your imagination helping you winning borders on delusional it seems.
    Because I quoted you and they were your words?

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

    Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

    See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.
    No, you didn't win. You got the kill and completed your personal objective. That's not a win condition, that's a small personal victory. Good for you! I'm sure that felt great! It sure felt great when I became one of the top 5 prot paladins in the world in the Endless Tank Proving Grounds back in MoP... but that was a personal goal, not a win.

    So, yeah, I completely understand what you're saying -- I've achieved plenty of personal goals in WoW, too, and have felt pride at those accomplishments. You, however, are not understanding the difference between a personal goal and a win condition.

    Players determine personal goals; developers determine win conditions.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Win the mount away from the vendor and into my collection?
    Just now you were talking about a rare spawn. Are you following the discussion?

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    No, you didn't win. You got the kill and completed your personal objective. That's not a win condition, that's a small personal victory. Good for you! I'm sure that felt great! It sure felt great when I became one of the top 5 prot paladins in the world in the Endless Tank Proving Grounds back in MoP... but that was a personal goal, not a win.

    So, yeah, I completely understand what you're saying -- I've achieved plenty of personal goals in WoW. You, however, are not understanding the difference between a personal goal and a win condition. Players determine personal goals, developers determine win conditions.
    If I reach a personal goal I define it as a win for me, you can argue semantics all you like but thats my view on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Just now you were talking about a rare spawn. Are you following the discussion?
    I entered this discussion bringing up the difference of pricing between mounts and how they were related to the WoW-token and p2w.

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    If I reach a personal goal I define it as a win for me, you can argue semantics all you like but thats my view on it.
    But that's not the relevant definition for the term "paytowin".

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Should every mount be a gold-sink? Historically there have been very few of those, now it seems baseline more than "goldsink".
    Not every mount is.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    Inflation. WoD and Legion add a huge amount of near-passive gold to the game. Exclusivity is gained through a higher cost.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    If I reach a personal goal I define it as a win for me, you can argue semantics all you like but thats my view on it.


    I entered this discussion bringing up the difference of pricing between mounts and how they were related to the WoW-token and p2w.
    Wait... so we can just make up or change the definitions of things and expect other people to adhere to our new (and incorrect) definitions?

    Neat.

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Wait... so we can just make up or change the definitions of things and expect other people to adhere to our new (and incorrect) definitions?

    Neat.
    no, you cant, because i say so!

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    But that's not the relevant definition for the term "paytowin".
    That depends on what your perception of winning something is.

    Quote Originally Posted by muten roshi View Post
    Not every mount is.
    Not every mount costs over 200 000 gold, but those who isnt overpriced are few.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Inflation. WoD and Legion add a huge amount of near-passive gold to the game. Exclusivity is gained through a higher cost.
    Yes but this only takes in mind the gold min-maxers who made bank during WoD and Legion like this, far from everybody in-game did it.

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