WOW- Now pay to win?

[rhorle]

Did you perhaps miss world first guilds paying for BoEs with gold bought from tokens in recent tiers? Because that seems to fit your criteria.

They also have sponsers and stuff. That doesn't mean the game requires you to have sponsers. World first guilds are not the norm and they have always "bought" their way in that race. Them taking out loans to buy BoE's is nothing new. It can just be done with legal rmt through the token now but as I referenced earlier they seem to prefer loans that they can recoup through boosting rather then spending real money.

[Adam Jensen]

Imagine paying a sub to a game only to grind for money to pay for sub to the game, barely having any time to actually PLAY the game.

I was referring to grinding gold for a mount that is optional to buy. Not for grinding gold to pay for a token.

[Jinpachi]

is there anyone apart from guilds trying to compete for world first like Method or Limit actualy wiling to spend some 80-120euro to buy single item?
if so, i pity the fool

Exactly this shit right here. If you're not pushing world firsts, stay in your fucking lane and be happy with your ilvl450-465 grind in normal/heroic/warfronts.

[Kaver]

Of course it is. What I said was that the gold still continued to lose value even after WoD. So it's not the missions. It's the WoW token.

What you said originally was: It wasn't the garrison that created inflation, it was the WoW token.

That's a direct quote of you. And that's is wrong.

Garrisons was a big part of the foundation of the inflation we see today. And it's not just about "whales" because A LOT of people took advantage of the Garrisons back then. And it also continued into Legion. It was not as lucrative as Garrisons but you could still make millions from the Class Order Halls with Alts. So Garrisons and Class Order Halls is a BIG part of the inflation.

Therefore, what you said originally was completely wrong. Maybe you meant something else but what you directly said was wrong.

[HCLM]

Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.

No, it is called gold sink. Thete was too much gold on the marked, and too many people had miliona of gold.

[Kagthul]

Then you are one of very few and wealthy players, I can assure you the vast majority of players dont amass those numbers.

There were a clik of opportunists that made bank during WoD and Legion, not everybody. So I dont agree with the inflation-argument.

even if you only had one toon, if you did your chores every day in that one guy, that was 70-90k a week. The fact that he ONLY came out with 1.5mil is the exceptional part of his statement.

I played casually through all of WoD and Legion. I played from Vanilla Beta - Early Cata, bailed out for all the rest and MoP, and came back for WoD.

I was about done with WoD when the token debuted, and i continued to play because for very little time investment (not even an hour a day that i could do in 10 minute segments in between other things) i could get WoW to pay for itself and still clear TONS of gold - which i turned into Bnet money so i could buy SC2 (xpacs), i bought Destiny 2, bought a few store mounts - all with gold... and STILL cleared 6+ mil in WoD alone.

I started with only 2 max level characters (all through Vanilla - LK, i only had one toon, and added a second only months before Cata). I added a 3rd by finally leveling a DK (but i could already fly, etc, so it was joke easy), and used my free 100 on a Hunter. I didn't max out gear on any of these toons - just full sets of honor gear because you could get the entire current set in about six hours in Ashran. Built their garrisons, money rolled in.

I added a Paladin at the end of WoD (about 4 months before the end) because i wanted to casually PvP as Prot-disrupter and annoy people. Didnt really end up doing that, but for about 3 months, another fully built Garrison-cow.

Going into Legion, i spent the first 2-3 months on my Main, not really leveling any alts. Still playing casually, though for the first six months, maybe 2 hours a day (not ever day, averaging it out over the week), leveling all my toons to 110 and adding an S. Priest with my freebie.

Legion wasn't *as good* as WoD (class halls were not AS lucrative), but Garrisons were still worth doing once/week because you can actually turn Garrison Resources into cash via Primals and expendables. Its not worth doing every day, but once a week per toon it takes 10 minutes to make 1k gold or so. And you can still get the Gronnling mount and other stuff that sells for thousands on each toon (the All-WoD-Reps token was still 5k each when i quit playing BfA after 3 months). And each developed class hall could easily generate 25k a week.

I walked out of Legion at over 11 million. After the first six months, i only played ~45min a day on average. Kept my toons in perfectly servicable normal-raid iLevel gear via the upgradeable craftables, which was fine for farming/doing WQs needed to make the Class Hall work.

At this point i was still doing it only because "basicall WoW is free/paying for itself" and i could turn gold into money to buy other Blizz Products, but it wasnt exactly difficult. And i wasn't even parsimonious with my money. If i saw smething on the AH that i wanted (i like to collect mounts, i was near hitting the new cheevs when i bailed out of BfA) i just bought it.

It really wasnt that hard, and i learned most of it from fellow casuals. You basically had to try NOT to make money.

[ReleaseDay]

Should every mount be a gold-sink? Historically there have been very few of those, now it seems baseline more than "goldsink".

This. Also those previous sinks, like the spider, were unique. Even the Argus Warframe, one could argue was worth its price. But now its 10/50/100/500-thousand for "common" rep rewards.

[TigTone]

This. Also those previous sinks, like the spider, were unique. Even the Argus Warframe, one could argue was worth its price. But now its 10/50/100/500-thousand for "common" rep rewards.

Does it really matter? The best mounts imo are the ones you earn through skill and group play.

[ReleaseDay]

Does it really matter? The best mounts imo are the ones you earn through skill and group play.

Well, the best mounts imo are those who are the most unique.

[Otimus]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having very powerful options able to be sold on the auction house. Whining about that kind of stuff is part of what has absolutely destroyed craftables weapons/armor being much good, and thus, has sort of continued to make crafting professions more and more worthless. (Hell, if it were up to me, I'd make it so at least one of every armor type's armor piece BiS was a crafted BoE, at the very least, and it'd be a fun adventure with a lot of work to get said recipes, as is, the economy and crafting in this game fucking blow)

[muten roshi]

What you said originally was: It wasn't the garrison that created inflation, it was the WoW token.

That's a direct quote of you. And that's is wrong.

No, it's not and I explained why.

[jellmoo]

It wasn't just missing the boat. Mission table gold-farming is fucking boring. A lot of players knew about it but couldn't be bothered with such terrible gameplay, even for a very lucrative reward.

I agree. I was one of those players. I think it was a mistake on Blizzard's part. But the ship has sailed, and quite a few players made metric tons of gold using the system. Blizzard had to introduce gold sinks to help mitigate the situation and keep inflation from wrecking those that didn't get in on the gold harvest.

[Halfaheart]

You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.

Bro. If you spend $300 on gear and somebody has the same exact gear as you or better that was earned organically then the game isn't pay to win.

[Razion]

They also have sponsers and stuff. That doesn't mean the game requires you to have sponsers. World first guilds are not the norm and they have always "bought" their way in that race. Them taking out loans to buy BoE's is nothing new. It can just be done with legal rmt through the token now but as I referenced earlier they seem to prefer loans that they can recoup through boosting rather then spending real money.

P2W being "legal" isn't exactly what I call winning the gold standard for ethical game development.

[Eurhetemec]

P2W being "legal" isn't exactly what I call winning the gold standard for ethical game development.

The idea that this is P2W in a real sense remains a giant ridiculous joke, though.

This is "pay bazillions of in-game gold to gain a slight advantage", which is how WoW has always been, and indeed how a lot of MMOs have been. Claiming this is P2W and it's new is just lying. Either almost all MMORPGs were always pay to win, or this is nothing new.

This shit about RMT is bullshit AFAICT. There's nothing any of the articles about tokens. That's a conspiracy theory that people who can't do basic math think is true. The articles are really clear - they took out in-game loans. Not out-of-game loans. Not RMT via tokens. Why would they even do tokens? It doesn't even make sense.

RTFA - https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-wa...mplexity-limit

Where are the tokens? Where's the real money?

It's not there. So you claiming P2W is some immense bullshit. Then borrowed and begged gold off people. They say so really clearly. They were begging it off people on Twitter even. If they were going via tokens, that wouldn't be the approach.

I'm sure there are smaller, more incompetent guilds that absolutely have tried shit like buying a giant stack of tokens to afford one piece of gear (it ain't cheap - 5 million gold is about 25 tokens, i.e. $500), but it's not the way you work it at the top. Those aren't the guilds winning the races.

[Razion]

The idea that this is P2W in a real sense remains a giant ridiculous joke, though.

[...]

Trades which are invariably being used in otherwise fair competition (by which many derive their entertainment and value in their experiences for this game) where not everyone has the same opportunities is undeniably unfair. The people with jobs and sponsorships associated with these kinds of exchanges, even if they were going to win anyway, will continue to get additional funding and continue to be able to have these advantages others don't have as easily or otherwise have to work or achieve on their own time and effort without. The fact is that the nature of the competition is unfair because of the nature of gold being a purchasable commodity, even when it isn't being strictly used. It is not a fair situation and presents a continuation where the competition could get more and more unfair and imbalanced in the future because the existing tokens allow for this kind of power buying to even be possible in the first place. It's not right.

[rhorle]

P2W being "legal" isn't exactly what I call winning the gold standard for ethical game development.

Who said it was? Do you honestly think though that world first guilds only used RMT once tokens were created? And that they at no time used a third party seller? That is what legal and illegal in the context of this discussion is referring to. It is not touching any ethical game development philosophy.

- - - Updated - - -

Trades which are invariably being used in otherwise fair

Everyone has, or had, the same ability to get gold to purchase BoE's. World First guilds by virtue of skill, fame, and position in the community have an easier time then the average player. But that will always be the case as long as they remain relevant to their fame. Anyone of skill though can work their way up the ladder to these guilds. Because they are always looking for backups, new blood, or what not. Nothing is also stopping 25 skilled players from starting their own world first contender guild and thus getting to do the same tactics.

You can't have Blizzard run the game on the idea that everyone gets equal gear and rights when individual players are still free to do what they want with the game, or their money. But notably the world first guilds could only buy power when someone else decided to forgoe their right to that power. Because tokens sell gold not items. A BoE can only be bought when another player decides to sell it.

And lets face it anyone that isn't in a worlds first guild is likely better off selling it to cash in because they won't really need whatever boost that BoE provides.

[Bwonsamdi the Dead]

Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.

I guess they could make them both cost the same? Also, maybe not Rep gated either. That way you could pick the one you want, without the other being different lol

[Baneto]

No, it is called gold sink. Thete was too much gold on the marked, and too many people had miliona of gold.

A few people capitalizing on garrisons in WoD and Legion didnt warrant this version of the game, where nobody can even afford ugly reskins of mounts from vendors.

I guess they could make them both cost the same? Also, maybe not Rep gated either. That way you could pick the one you want, without the other being different lol

I would be fine if they put the price to 10K, thats not a hard amount to get, and the rep requirement is fine too, gives you something to work towards.

- - - Updated - - -

...

I also played during WoD, and I didnt make near as much gold as some of you are speaking of from garrisons.

[PaladinBash]

I don't care if some mindless fuckhead spends literally hundreds of dollars for a BOE so he can do some keys. I do my own keys with whoever. This guy, at absolute fucking most, is in my key doing good DPS. At most. This is the sum total of the impact on me. I have absolutely no concern for it whatsoever. Yeah yeah boosted maggots get carried all day but not by me. I am not a harlot that carries them and try-hard content doesn't concern me, only raiding. Nobody in my rank nothing guild that kills bosses months after the race is over is spending hundreds for an 'unfair advantage' so I truthfully do not give a fuck.