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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    46 pages of pointless mental gymnastics to philosophise why pay to win isn't pay to win.

    Can you buy BIS items from AH? Yes, you can. Can you buy items from websites for real cash like Diablo 2 days? Yes you can. Are world first guilds power buying the best items across multiple realms in order to gain a competitive advantage? Yes they are. Can you buy gold with real cash used to purchase these items from AH? Yes you can and from Blizzard themselves, who profit more when you do.

    Yes it's pay to win, if that hurts your feelings you can rationalise or mind bend your way around it to make you feel better but that doesn't change the facts or the perception, either way it's not going to change so play or don't play.
    You can also just buy an account, or pay someone else to get it for you, and that's true of literally any game, so literally every game is pay to win by your logic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    I'm not sure the original lunar lander had a way to buy things or pac-man or frogger.
    you could always pay someone to show you the later levels, so, yes, they did, even if people didn't often use it.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by muten roshi View Post
    No, it's not and I explained why.
    You explained why the tokens may also have had an impact on inflation. But that doesn’t comply with your original statement. It’s wrong to say that Garrisons didn’t create inflation. And that’s what you said.

    What you said was wrong.

  3. #1043
    The goblin in me sees no problem in this. "Supply and demand" I think they call it. But seriously, buying BOE has always been a thing, but corruption was an obscene system and I'm glad we are rid of it.

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    I also played during WoD, and I didnt make near as much gold as some of you are speaking of from garrisons.
    That was your choice then. It was there.

    That you chose not to take advantage of it is on you.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    That was your choice then. It was there.

    That you chose not to take advantage of it is on you.
    And nobody I knew save for some CE-raiders and AH-whales on the server made notably amounts of gold via Garrisons anyway.

    But yeah, it isnt the first time Blizzard makes decisions based on a minority that affect the majority of players.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    And nobody I knew save for some CE-raiders and AH-whales on the server made notably amounts of gold via Garrisons anyway.

    But yeah, it isnt the first time Blizzard makes decisions based on a minority that affect the majority of players.
    It isnt a minority at all.

    Your anecdotal experience is not indicative of actual data. They can tell exactly how much gold everyone has. Down to the last copper.

    Its not like it was remotely a secret how to do it. There were guides on the front page of this website several times. Video guides that walked you through everything you needed to do and even told you why to do a certain thing and how it helped make the total gold gain better.

    Multiples.

    If we went by anecdotal data, then i'd tell you that everyone has millions, because everyone i knew (100+ people) made millions. I know that's anecdotal, though, and that blizz literally has to pull up a single database querry and can know in a few minutes at most how much gold there is.

    They dont make these decisions ina vacuum. And they also dont affect gameplay. You know what having a lot of gold does for you? You can uh... buy expensive mounts and stuff. Maybe carries if you're a bad player or even a good one who just doesn't want to be arsed (no shame in saying i wanted the Archimonde mount and paid for a carry because i just couldn't be arsed and had the gold to spare).

    You know what that mount does for my DPS, or PvP, or.... anything?

    Nothin.

    So, let me know when we get to how WoW is even remotely pay to win. (Hint: ill be waiting, 'cause we aint there.).

  7. #1047
    Even if you could buy a full 475 full sockets and corruption gear for real money by ingame service it will not kill you boss by itself. It would make the boss easier but not so easy that you can kill it like nothing.

    Now you can buy only a few pieces for ridiculous prices and that's on AH. And they will do almost nothing in the raid. you alone will do a little more DPS and that's all.

    It's not P2W

    also, why did the method lost world 1st if the game would be p2w after they bough boes for like several hundreds of million?

  8. #1048
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    I'm not sure if there is a definition outside of PVP for "winning" an MMO like WoW. In any case, getting a mount isn't it. People get all up in arms over this whenever there's an expensive (in gold) mount added to the game. It's silly.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Wrong.

    People play the game in more ways than you list.

    To other players than you winning the game can mean completing collections or transmogs.

    So yes WoW is pay to win with the wow-token and the inflated prices for everything in-game at the moment.
    That is still not pay to win. There is no advantage gained by someone who buys a WoW token to purchase a mount vs someone who plays the game and earns gold thru other means to purchase a mount.
    You don’t need to buy a WoW token to get these things. Unless it’s a necessity then there is no pay to win component in game.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    It isnt a minority at all.

    Your anecdotal experience is not indicative of actual data. They can tell exactly how much gold everyone has. Down to the last copper.

    Its not like it was remotely a secret how to do it. There were guides on the front page of this website several times. Video guides that walked you through everything you needed to do and even told you why to do a certain thing and how it helped make the total gold gain better.

    Multiples.

    If we went by anecdotal data, then i'd tell you that everyone has millions, because everyone i knew (100+ people) made millions. I know that's anecdotal, though, and that blizz literally has to pull up a single database querry and can know in a few minutes at most how much gold there is.

    They dont make these decisions ina vacuum. And they also dont affect gameplay. You know what having a lot of gold does for you? You can uh... buy expensive mounts and stuff. Maybe carries if you're a bad player or even a good one who just doesn't want to be arsed (no shame in saying i wanted the Archimonde mount and paid for a carry because i just couldn't be arsed and had the gold to spare).

    You know what that mount does for my DPS, or PvP, or.... anything?

    Nothin.

    So, let me know when we get to how WoW is even remotely pay to win. (Hint: ill be waiting, 'cause we aint there.).
    So your entire post is also full of anecdotal experiences, what difference does it make really?
    Just look at my picture, a mount that sold for 3k gold is now in BFA sold for 500k. Is that the best direction for the game to take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    That is still not pay to win. There is no advantage gained by someone who buys a WoW token to purchase a mount vs someone who plays the game and earns gold thru other means to purchase a mount.
    You don’t need to buy a WoW token to get these things. Unless it’s a necessity then there is no pay to win component in game.
    Yes there is an advantage, the guy that buys the wow token wins since he doesnt have to spend as much time to farm gold.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    It isnt a minority at all.

    Your anecdotal experience is not indicative of actual data. They can tell exactly how much gold everyone has. Down to the last copper.

    Its not like it was remotely a secret how to do it. There were guides on the front page of this website several times. Video guides that walked you through everything you needed to do and even told you why to do a certain thing and how it helped make the total gold gain better.

    Multiples.

    If we went by anecdotal data, then i'd tell you that everyone has millions, because everyone i knew (100+ people) made millions. I know that's anecdotal, though, and that blizz literally has to pull up a single database querry and can know in a few minutes at most how much gold there is.

    They dont make these decisions ina vacuum. And they also dont affect gameplay. You know what having a lot of gold does for you? You can uh... buy expensive mounts and stuff. Maybe carries if you're a bad player or even a good one who just doesn't want to be arsed (no shame in saying i wanted the Archimonde mount and paid for a carry because i just couldn't be arsed and had the gold to spare).

    You know what that mount does for my DPS, or PvP, or.... anything?

    Nothin.

    So, let me know when we get to how WoW is even remotely pay to win. (Hint: ill be waiting, 'cause we aint there.).
    The argument ist, that you can buy gear in the AH with gold you bought with real money.
    Which actually was the case with the corruptions. As you needed certain incredible OP pieces to be relevant.

    Granted a normal player can't buy that 4Million piece. But it was/is possible.

    For SL there does not really seem to be BoE pieces that are that OP. But you can still buy gear with real life money with one step between. Tokens.
    So in a way it IS Pay to win. As your chances of finishing any objective in this game get better with better gear.
    So you "win".

  12. #1052
    So people have convinced themselves that the game is not pay to win because even though you can buy power and buying power plays a significant role in competitive play, you can still earn it. I don't know if it's denial or what it is, people not wanting the reputation of their game to be tarnished but face up to the reality? Buying power is a significant part of the game meta, those who do it are at an advantage and Blizzard facilitate and profit from it, in 8.3 more than ever.


    Like I said, I can't buy any success/advantage/progression in Street Fighter, nor iRacing, my money counts for nothing in Starcraft, nor in D3 for that matter. And yes plenty of games have scummy ways to get ahead but that doesn't give WoW a free pass, other games being worse or having similar mechanics doesn't make WoW "not" a P2W game. Being able to technically earn everything in game doesn't make WoW "not" a P2W game.

    Can you buy BIS level power in WoW? Yes
    Does Blizzard allow or facilitate these real money transactions? Yes
    Does it happen to impact competitive play? Yes


    That doesn't make WoW a bad game and you shouldn't be upset, but try not to be so heavily in denial.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2020-10-12 at 07:23 AM.
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  13. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Trades which are invariably being used in otherwise fair competition (by which many derive their entertainment and value in their experiences for this game) where not everyone has the same opportunities is undeniably unfair. The people with jobs and sponsorships associated with these kinds of exchanges, even if they were going to win anyway, will continue to get additional funding and continue to be able to have these advantages others don't have as easily or otherwise have to work or achieve on their own time and effort without.
    The same exact rant applies to all amateur and professional sports-people who manage to get sponsorship or jobs or even scholarships.

    And what's the alternative? You seem to not basically not understand the situation. You don't understand why sponsorships and the quasi-jobs some raiders have and so on exist. You say they're unfair, but you're just asking for another kind of unfairness, even by your own logic.

    Let me break it down for you to see if you can understand.

    1) In order to win raiding races in WoW, you basically need to play WoW several hours a day, most or all days.

    2) This has been true since Vanilla, and indeed, it was true before WoW came out, in EverQuest (some of WoW's main designers and Rob Pardo, who got WoW made, were in EQ raiding guilds).

    3) In order to play WoW several hours a day (often 8+), most or all days, you generally need one of three situations:

    3a) Unemployed, but your parents (or similar) pay for everything you need (including a good PC and connection). Doesn't matter whether it's a trust fund, over generous parents, or whatever. Point is, you're being given money for nothing, and allowed to play WoW all day.

    or

    3b) Unemployed, but have enough money in the bank, or coming in from some kind of welfare (the latter pretty much never happens in the US, note), that you don't need to work. Maybe you got rich quick, maybe you inherited, maybe you had a dreadful accident and got a payout (I've met people where it was the latter, their life sucked but they could play MMOs all day, it was about all they could do), whatever.

    or

    3c) Have a total fuck-around job where you can literally play WoW all day and get paid. Usually this is a temporary situation until it gets found out, but it can last for years if the job is sufficiently obscure in a large organisation.

    So basically only people in one of those three situations could participate in top-level raiding. Rich people, or lucky people.

    4) The end result is that the primary qualification for being a top raider was, in earlier years "I have enough money to play/eat/live/have a good PC but I don't need to actually do a job".

    I'm not sure why you think that was "right" or "fair"? Can you explain? But that's what you're asking for a return to. A situation where only people who don't have to work for whatever reason get to win WoW races.

    What you want is a world like sports in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Sponsorships didn't really exist and pro sports were seen as declasse and wrong by some people (but had started existing in the 1800s, there's even a Netflix show about it with UK football). So the only people who could do sports at a high level where basically rich people, and people who had really weird jobs where they naturally did something like the sport, and could also take weeks/months off to go compete. But mostly just rich people.

    Why do you want that? Why do you think that's fair?

    5) Sponsorships solve this "only rich/lucky people can compete" deal, by giving athletes money so they can focus on training (though often athletes also need part-time jobs, or sponsorship only covers some costs), instead of also trying to do a normal job and so on. It's no different in WoW. The money players get lets people who aren't rich, aren't lucky, focus on learning the raids and so on. You can say that's lame, you can say it's not an "e-sport" or whatever, but the fact is, the principal remains.

    Professional teams also provide the same kind of support - instead of someone having to work 8 hours+/day, they can focus entirely on their sport. But people like you complained and complained and complained in the 1800s when they started to appear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The fact is that the nature of the competition is unfair because of the nature of gold being a purchasable commodity, even when it isn't being strictly used. It is not a fair situation and presents a continuation where the competition could get more and more unfair and imbalanced in the future because the existing tokens allow for this kind of power buying to even be possible in the first place. It's not right.
    That is absolutely NOT a fact. There's no evidence that any of the top raiding guilds are using selling tokens, and abundant evidence that they're begging and borrowing (and they slowly paying people back) from mega-rich WoW people, which is far cheaper and more efficient than messing with tokens.

    You can argue competition is "unfair" because some people can devote 8+ hours/day to raiding practices and the like, sure. But that's unfair in the same way some sportspeople get sponsorships, and some sports are professional and have teams, and others don't/aren't. It's not magically unfair because WoW Tokens exist. This same unfairness existed before tokens, except it was much worse, because only rich/lucky people got to play WoW all the time.



    There is one thing that could help with your complaint, though. Blizzard could stop dropping high-end BoEs. Sponsorships and semi-pro teams will still exist, and I guess you'll still hate them and prefer only rich/lucky people win races, but Blizzard could easily eliminate most of the competitive advantage (such that it is) from BoEs, just by capping their ilvls below where they'd be particularly useful for raiding. Honestly, raiders would thank them. Raiders don't want to spend 257 million gold to win a raid race. If BoEs capped lower, then they'd offer little, and people would pay at most hundreds of thousands of gold instead of millions, and raiders wouldn't be interested.

    But everything else you're complaining about is basically the same argument as a British aristocrat complaining that people sponsoring/paying the poors are ruining soccer in like 1880.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    So people have convinced themselves that the game is not pay to win because even though you can buy power and buying power plays a significant role in competitive play, you can still earn it. I don't know if it's denial or what it is, people not wanting the reputation of their game to be tarnished but face up to the reality? Buying power is a significant part of the game meta, those who do it are at an advantage and Blizzard facilitate and profit from it, in 8.3 more than ever.


    Like I said, I can't buy any success/advantage/progression in Street Fighter, nor iRacing, my money counts for nothing in Starcraft, nor in D3 for that matter. And yes plenty of games have scummy ways to get ahead but that doesn't give WoW a free pass, other games being worse or having similar mechanics doesn't make WoW "not" a P2W game. Being able to technically earn everything in game doesn't make WoW "not" a P2W game.

    Can you buy BIS level power in WoW? Yes
    Does Blizzard allow or facilitate these real money transactions? Yes
    Does it happen to impact competitive play? Yes


    That doesn't make WoW a bad game and you shouldn't be upset, but try not to be so heavily in denial.
    Does your RL money make any impact in WoW if you so desired? Would you be able to buy something so powerful that it noteably impacts your ability to win?

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Does your RL money make any impact in WoW if you so desired? Would you be able to buy something so powerful that it noteably impacts your ability to win?
    Buying tokens to buy BoE corruptions, Ny'alotha WF-race comes to mind.

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Buying tokens to buy BoE corruptions, Ny'alotha WF-race comes to mind.
    Oh, you are a WF raider? Never knew.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Buying tokens to buy BoE corruptions, Ny'alotha WF-race comes to mind.
    That gave you an advantage, not an "I-win" button. You still had to be good enough to clear the raid. Give 20 LFR raiders £5000 in WoW tokens to mop up all the BiS pieces they could from the AH & they'd still struggle on Wrathion.

    So the game isn't pay to win, unless you think buying a boost so it looks like you've cleared 12/12M or hit Gladiator to be winning. Can you pay for an advantage though? 100%, that's definitely a thing.

  18. #1058
    Well you can't get your entire gear from boes

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Xauro View Post
    I see 475ilvl items with socket and good corruption for like 2-3 million on the AH. So now ppl buy wow tokens for real life money and then buy this items...

    Is this good gameplay or not? Pay to win?

    Blizzard probly happy about it as they earn more $$$




    EDIT: What i mean by p2w is win the damage meter. More dps make dungeon/raid/pvp easyer. One with buyed BIS for real life money VS one with no corrupt or a bad one. Who would you put your money on? Who would you like to have in your raid/dungeon/arena. Also my english are pretty bad so sorry for not explaining so all understand. I did my best, sorry.


    VERY funny thing is that i asked both if its good gameplay and if its P2W. None/few answer if its good gameplay. All get stuck if its P2W instead. Ppl are funny

    Apparently Preach Gaming have a video about it.

    "Time is money, friend!"

    Let's be honest, grinding (and by extension luck) is also money spent on the game, mmorpgs are just very vulnerable in that sense.

    Only way to really undercut that is to make the grind itself fun so that it is unnoticed, as well as easy enough to do so that its value is not inflated.
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    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Respect all, submit to none.

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    That gave you an advantage, not an "I-win" button. You still had to be good enough to clear the raid. Give 20 LFR raiders £5000 in WoW tokens to mop up all the BiS pieces they could from the AH & they'd still struggle on Wrathion.

    So the game isn't pay to win, unless you think buying a boost so it looks like you've cleared 12/12M or hit Gladiator to be winning. Can you pay for an advantage though? 100%, that's definitely a thing.
    You're arguing semantics now, it granted them the win so its a means to an end that was winning.

    In some aspects, the game absolutely is pay to win, I dont know why people wont accept this its like theyre trying to defend the game or something.

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