WOW- Now pay to win?

[Belloc]

Did you perhaps miss world first guilds paying for BoEs with gold bought from tokens in recent tiers? Because that seems to fit your criteria.

It doesn't, though, because those BoEs were not sold by Blizzard. Those BoEs didn't exist until players entered the content and had them drop. Re-read the post you quoted.

[ymirsson]

mario and marathons have very clearly defined win conditions though. something that's nowhere near as clear in wow. some people considering clearing heroic win, some clearing half the mythic raid, some the whole mythic raid, some the mythic raid before anyone else. some wins in wow, like bis gear, are unobtainable so anyone who considers they have won that has set some personal goal. and ofc, the game technically doesn't have a win condition at all. (well i guess you can make a similar argument for mario and marthons actually.)

though, w/e you set as your win in wow, you can definitely legally pay for 99% of them.

pay to have someone do it for you, or pay to be able to do it at all?

[Ielenia]

mario and marathons have very clearly defined win conditions though.

So does World of Warcraft. And even so, nothing stops anyone from making their own arbitrary "win conditions" for the Mario game(s) and marathons.

some people considering clearing heroic win, some clearing half the mythic raid, some the whole mythic raid, some the mythic raid before anyone else. some wins in wow, like bis gear, are unobtainable so anyone who considers they have won that has set some personal goal.

Most of what you mentioned there are personal arbitrary goals. Only the 'mythic raid' can be considered an end goal for the game for the PvE side.

though, w/e you set as your win in wow, you can definitely legally pay for 99% of them.

This is nothing but trying to rationalize a redefinition of the term to mean something other than what it actually means. The term is well defined. Lets try to not change it to suit a narrative.

[aeuhe4yxzhds]

In one week of casual play (Classic Dungeons) I have amassed 432k. Up from 122k.

Its inflation.

No, you have not manage to receive over 300k of gold in one week of "casual" play and neither doing it through classic dungeons

[Paula Deen]

No, you have not manage to receive over 300k of gold in one week of "casual" play and neither doing it through classic dungeons

Yes. I have. Run ZF and Ulduman. Transmog literally prints gold. Sorry you can't spend actually 10 minutes of real time farming each a day for free money.

[Baneto]

I'm sorry, but you're acting very obtuse here. You are attempting to redefine "pay to win" to mean "winning" your own arbitrary goals, rather than "winning" the goals the game have established. That's like saying you can "win" at Super Mario Bros because you decided that to "win" the game, all you have to do is kill the first goomba that shows up. Or saying you can "win" a marathon by establishing your own arbitrary goal that to "win" you just need to be the first to break 50 meters so you go for a full sprint instead of jogging to be the first to reach the 50 meters mark.


Saying "agree to disagree" here feels more like a cop-out here because you have been put against the wall for attempting to redefine what the term "pay to win" means to suit your narrative.

Almost like you're trying to tell others your way of defining things, isnt it? I think we were done a while ago, you got yours and I got mine.

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Yes. I have. Run ZF and Ulduman. Transmog literally prints gold. Sorry you can't spend actually 10 minutes of real time farming each a day for free money.

I've done that farm and no way in hell it prints you 300k+ gold on my realm at least. Im on one of the highest populated realms EU and I can hardly sell any xmog.

[Drusin]

No, you have not manage to receive over 300k of gold in one week of "casual" play and neither doing it through classic dungeons

Technically he could be telling the truth, I'll give you an example:



If he posted a papal fez for 300k I'd buy that instantly lol. So his statement could be truthful. Now if he said he makes 300k every week I'd have questions lol.

[Hellobolis]

Most of what you mentioned there are personal arbitrary goals. Only the 'mythic raid' can be considered an end goal for the game for the PvE side.

i've never gotten a "you win" screen when i got cutting edge. so why can THIS be considered the ONLY end goal for not just raiding, but all PvE? seems just as arbitrary. it's not even the hardest thing you can do in raiding, it's just the last thing that gives an achievement.

This is nothing but trying to rationalize a redefinition of the term to mean something other than what it actually means. The term is well defined. Lets try to not change it to suit a narrative.

eh i'd say originaly it means paying to be better than others, which you straight up can't do in wow at all and which by and large isn't a lasting business model for games that do.

You can definitely pay to win the best gear/achievements/pets/titles/etc though, and if you wanna debate about whether you have to go through an intermediary or not, or whether you can techincally grind gold instead of buying it, that just further proofs that "pay to win" is just as well defined as "game of the year", aka barely at all.

even in mobile games where pay to win is much more acceptable, it's a big sliding scale on what it means.

[Raelbo]

And winning means whatever you want it to be, different people different goals.Its an echo-chamber by now, just agree to disagree with the whole pay 2 win since nobody is "right".

Haha, you don't get off that easily. You're objectively and categorically wrong.

As I said, repeatedly, the issue isn't how anyone chooses to define "winning". It's entirely about whether you're required to pay in order to do so.

So you can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think "winning" is - and sure, people can "agree to disagree" on that count - but it's entirely irrelevant to the actual question.

The point is this: Tokens buy you a small to moderate amount of gold. No one needs to pay cash for gold. Therefore the game is not pay-to-win. Period.

[Hellobolis]

Haha, you don't get off that easily. You're objectively and categorically wrong.

As I said, repeatedly, the issue isn't how anyone chooses to define "winning". It's entirely about whether you're required to pay in order to do so.

So you can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think "winning" is - and sure, people can "agree to disagree" on that count - but it's entirely irrelevant to the actual question.

The point is this: Tokens buy you a small to moderate amount of gold. No one needs to pay cash for gold. Therefore the game is not pay-to-win. Period.

in relative terms, sure. paying to win in wow is prohibitively expensive so on the whole the game isn't pay to win.

in absolute terms you can definitely do it though.

"pay to skip the line" is definitely very common though, no way you can tell me all the M+ boost people sell aren't bought with tokens intead of farming.

[Baneto]

Haha, you don't get off that easily. You're objectively and categorically wrong.

As I said, repeatedly, the issue isn't how anyone chooses to define "winning". It's entirely about whether you're required to pay in order to do so.

So you can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think "winning" is - and sure, people can "agree to disagree" on that count - but it's entirely irrelevant to the actual question.

The point is this: Tokens buy you a small to moderate amount of gold. No one needs to pay cash for gold. Therefore the game is not pay-to-win. Period.

Nope, neither of us are either wrong or right.

Its subjective.

--- snip ---

[Raelbo]

I can't post a link due to not really posting but if you google scribe admits rmt ny'alotha you get a Icy-veins link where you see the story and also a link to the tweet of Scripe where he said it.
Scripe did admit to it after Gallywix went up in flames and a Gallywix council member went on a leaking spree shit came to light the rate was 50 euro to 1mil they did pay 128,473,245 gold so 128x50=6400$ + ofc the advertisment they get from Method saying they got it from them.

Fair enough, I was unaware of that particular development.

But if you actually stop and analyze it, even in this case, where a top guild is levering gold to try to gain a competitive advantage, the gold did not come from tokens. It came from other players. Which actually demonstrates, once again, that the game is not pay-to-win.

You see, pay-to-win is about a transaction between the player and the game - the player pays the game and gets something in return. The phenomenon here is something completely different - it's about co-operation between players. That fact that it's predicated on a real-money transaction is actually entirely irrelevant. If the crew at Gallywix had elected to simply donate that gold to Method, the effect would have been the same.

And if you think about it further, tokens, by virtue of the way they work, cannot be pay-to-win, because no one is creating gold from money. When you spend $$ on a token, Blizzard don't push a button and generate a bunch of gold. They transact that gold from someone else to you. The gold is all created through people playing the game. Tokens simply facilitate a transaction between two players in a safe and regulated manner.

[Packmule]

In what game can’t you pay to win if i may ask?
If wow is p2w what people like to point out.

[Raelbo]

Nope, neither of us are either wrong or right.

Nope, you just fail to understand what I am arguing.

[Baneto]

Nope, you just fail to understand what I am arguing.

I do understand what you're arguing, I just disagree with it.

[Hellobolis]

You see, pay-to-win is about a transaction between the player and the game - the player pays the game and gets something in return. The phenomenon here is something completely different - it's about co-operation between players. That fact that it's predicated on a real-money transaction is actually entirely irrelevant. If the crew at Gallywix had elected to simply donate that gold to Method, the effect would have been the same.

And if you think about it further, tokens, by virtue of the way they work, cannot be pay-to-win, because no one is creating gold from money. When you spend $$ on a token, Blizzard don't push a button and generate a bunch of gold. They transact that gold from someone else to you. The gold is all created through people playing the game. Tokens simply facilitate a transaction between two players in a safe and regulated manner.

riiiight. so if blizz added a literal i win button to crafting professions, but only let you sell them for real money, that wouldn't be pay to win because a player had to make the i win button?

[Raelbo]

in relative terms, sure. paying to win in wow is prohibitively expensive so on the whole the game isn't pay to win.

True, but not what I am arguing.

"pay to skip the line" is definitely very common though, no way you can tell me all the M+ boost people sell aren't bought with tokens intead of farming.

Of course not, but I don't have to, because that has nothing to do with the definition of "pay to win".

"pay to win" means, quite literally, that there is a fundamental relationship between paying money to the game and winning. You either pay, or you don't win.

The fundamental (and only) reason why tokens are not "pay to win" is that the gold you get from a token comes from another players. When you spend $$ to buy some gold, it's not the game that gives you the gold. It's another player.

Now I am not trying to pretend that getting the aid of another isn't advantageous, and could even be necessary to win. I am also not arguing that this aid can't be obtained by means of a monetary transaction. What I am saying though is that this is not "pay to win".

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I do understand what you're arguing, I just disagree with it.

Nothing you have said up to this point demonstrates any engagement with what I have said though. So while you might think you understand, you clearly do not.

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riiiight. so if blizz added a literal i win button to crafting professions, but only let you sell them for real money, that wouldn't be pay to win because a player had to make the i win button?

That's some twisted logic you're trying to apply there mate.

[Baneto]

Intense ranting about how his opinion is the only true and correct opinion.

No I just disagree with you, deal with it and go on with your life already.

[Monster Hunter]

Its business.
As long as people are stupid enough to pay it will be done.
Dont blame the evil corporation, blame the moronic public.

its to drain the market of the gold pumped into it because of garrisons.

these mounts arnt ment for the averedge player or new players, there ment to temp those who horded millions during the garrison madness into spending it so they can get gold inflation back somewhat under control.

[Vorkreist]

In what game can’t you pay to win if i may ask?

In games where you are not offered direct means to purchase things of value (beyond cosmetics) in the game with money.
Its quite simple. Does the game give you means to purchase power with money? In case of wow because of tokens the answer is yes. You have a direct official service that lets you buy gold with money. Gold that can let you buy gear through boosts of any kind.

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The fundamental (and only) reason why tokens are not "pay to win" is that the gold you get from a token comes from another players. When you spend $$ to buy some gold, it's not the game that gives you the gold. It's another player.
.

What the hell does it matter where the gold comes from? You pay real money and receive gold that gives you everything in the game. You pay and WIN .
It can't get simpler than that.