Page 57 of 72 FirstFirst ...
7
47
55
56
57
58
59
67
... LastLast
  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    What the hell does it matter where the gold comes from? You pay real money and receive gold that gives you everything in the game. You pay and WIN .
    It can't get simpler than that.
    Might want to not quote that guy, he cant handle other peoples opinions.

  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    In games where you are not offered direct means to purchase things of value (beyond cosmetics) in the game with money.
    Its quite simple. Does the game give you means to purchase power with money? In case of wow because of tokens the answer is yes. You have a direct official service that lets you buy gold with money. Gold that can let you buy gear through boosts of any kind.

    - - - Updated - - -.
    False assesment, even without blizzard supports, you can buy gold. Litterly every game has offers through iternet, gold, items, others playing your account, anything. Doesn’t automatically make a game Pay to win.

  3. #1123
    WoW token doesn't even give that much gold for the insane prices of best BoE's I'd just laugh if someone actually geared their character for mythic with real money.

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by Packmule View Post
    False assesment, even without blizzard supports, you can buy gold. Litterly every game has offers through iternet, gold, items, others playing your account, anything. Doesn’t automatically make a game Pay to win.
    Then Blizzard released their own means of buying gold, so now you can pay to win Blizzards way!

  5. #1125
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Twitch chat
    Posts
    2,719
    Quote Originally Posted by Packmule View Post
    False assesment, even without blizzard supports, you can buy gold. Litterly every game has offers through iternet, gold, items, others playing your account, anything. Doesn’t automatically make a game Pay to win.

    Having an official way to buy gold does automatically make it a Pay to win game. Its the very definition of pay to win.
    I find it weird that some people have trouble understanding the concept. Its not about what obscure ebay crap you can buy in a game. Its about the game itself having direct service to buy power with money. It makes the game a complete joke turd pay to win because a LOT more people engage with that cancerous system compared to a game that does not support something like that and only a few random people go out of their way to use external ways of buying things in the game.

  6. #1126
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Does the game give you means to purchase power with money?
    That is not the meaning of "pay-to-win" though. Yes, it's part of it, but missing the critical part - the part that makes "pay-to-win" bad.

    Pay-to-win means that in order "to win" you are required to "pay" and that trying to win without paying is going to put you at a disadvantage that is either impossible or impractical to overcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    In case of wow because of tokens the answer is yes. You have a direct official service that lets you buy gold with money. Gold that can let you buy gear through boosts of any kind.
    So, as you admit, the game doesn't give you gear for your money. It's other players that are helping you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    What the hell does it matter where the gold comes from?
    It matters because WoW is a multiplayer game in which players are able to help each other in many ways. And a player helping another player in an MMO is not pay-to-win, even if that player is only doing so for money.

    Also there are very important implications for how this affects the game, stemming from the fact that gold has to be obtained from other players and isn't simply generated by the game. Notably, there is a severe limitation on how much gold can bought and what can be done with it.

    Not everyone can buy gold for $$ - for every buyer you have to have a seller. It is quite literally impossible for it to become mandatory that people pay money in order to obtain gold. And the more people that try to buy gold, the more advantageous it becomes to those who actually play to earn the gold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    You pay real money and receive gold that gives you everything in the game. You pay and WIN. It can't get simpler than that.
    Firstly, no, gold does not give you "everything in the game". As you've already pointed out, what it can do is enlist the aid of other players. Which means that they are the ones helping you "win" (if you can even call it that).

    Secondly, and importantly, the ability to make gold in this game is not limited by your ability (or lack thereof) to spend money in order to acquire it. The fact that tokens source gold from other players ensures this. Simply put, the people who have the most gold in the game didn't get it by buying tokens, and if you really want a lot of gold, tokens can never be the best way of achieving it.

    In real, practical terms the token simply provides a mechanism (and incentive) for the best players in the game (the actual "winners") to help the weakest/worst players in the game.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-10-13 at 12:53 PM.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Having an official way to buy gold does automatically make it a Pay to win game. Its the very definition of pay to win.
    I find it weird that some people have trouble understanding the concept. Its not about what obscure ebay crap you can buy in a game. Its about the game itself having direct service to buy power with money. It makes the game a complete joke turd pay to win because a LOT more people engage with that cancerous system compared to a game that does not support something like that and only a few random people go out of their way to use external ways of buying things in the game.
    It’s clear to me you are oblivious to what p2w means, so theirs no need to discuss this any further. Have a nice day tho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Then Blizzard released their own means of buying gold, so now you can pay to win Blizzards way!
    Whatever fairy tale suits your purpose friend. If you lack the intellectual capacity to understand what something means, thats fine by me.

    Have a good day tho

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    In games where you are not offered direct means to purchase things of value (beyond cosmetics) in the game with money.
    Its quite simple. Does the game give you means to purchase power with money? In case of wow because of tokens the answer is yes. You have a direct official service that lets you buy gold with money. Gold that can let you buy gear through boosts of any kind.
    And this is where you are wrong. I can hire professional player to win games for me in practically any game. I can hire people to farm for me to get those "things of value". Thus every game ever created is pay to win.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

    There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.
    Why do you care? It does not affect you. These are...

    COSMETIC ITEMS THAT HAVE NO EFFECT ON ACTUAL GAME PLAY

    Also, one is a reputation reward for Horde only and the other is an outright purchase available to both factions.

    Mod Edit: Don't use giant fonts in this fashion.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-10-13 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Removed Giant Fonts

  10. #1130
    First of all winning is subjective. Second, buying gold to buy gear from AH is not pay to win. It is pay to advance. Consider this.. is having highest item level in your raid group winning? Or does your placement in DPS chart count? Are you winning if you are the top dps?

    I can assure you if you give a shitty player a mythic geared character they will still lose dps race to a heroic geared good player. Because you can't buy skill.

    Pay to win means you pay to win. If you could buy a service that gives you power to one shot a raid boss once a week that is pay to win.

  11. #1131
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Having an official way to buy gold does automatically make it a Pay to win game. Its the very definition of pay to win.
    There is no "the very definition of pay to win". But if you look the term up, there is a general sort of consensus, and it's absolutely not the definition you're trying to argue.

    According to the Urban Dictionary, pay to win means

    Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
    Being able to buy gold via tokens (ie from other players) pretty much fails all of these criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    I find it weird that some people have trouble understanding the concept.
    That's because it stems from the fact that it is you who doesn't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Its about the game itself having direct service to buy power with money.
    Except you don't buy power with money. We've already been over this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    It makes the game a complete joke turd pay to win because a LOT more people engage with that cancerous system compared to a game that does not support something like that and only a few random people go out of their way to use external ways of buying things in the game.
    No, I think you want to be able to argue that because WoW is pay-to-win, that makes it a "joke turd" of a game. And as such you're trying to distort the meaning of the term "pay-to-win" so that WoW fits, all the while failing to link that definition to what makes "pay-to-win" bad in the first place.

    In short, you're trying to strawman. If there are specific things that you think WoW tokens are doing that make the game worse, then please, elaborate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Pay to win means you pay to win.
    It's actually a surprising difficult thing to describe. It seems really simple, but it isn't.

    I think what most fail to understand is the implied link between paying and winning. In a "pay-to-win" game, winning requires paying. That's the crux of it. Unfortunately a lot of these arguments end up becoming a debate over what constitutes winning, with the people (a fine example evident in the preceding few pages) engaging in that argument completely oblivious to how irrelevant it is.

    If spending $$ on the game (in the case of WoW, on tokens) is not mandatory (and it patently is not since gold is easily acquired in game without tokens) then it doesn't matter how you define "winning" - WoW is not pay-to-win.

  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    its to drain the market of the gold pumped into it because of garrisons.

    these mounts arnt ment for the averedge player or new players, there ment to temp those who horded millions during the garrison madness into spending it so they can get gold inflation back somewhat under control.
    I dont think they would invest development time and resources into that.

    I stand by my original theory.

  13. #1133
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    I dont think they would invest development time and resources into that.

    I stand by my original theory.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gold_sink

    I mean you're entirely free to stand by whatever nonsense theory you want to. Or you can be informed. Your choice.

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Almost like you're trying to tell others your way of defining things, isnt it? I think we were done a while ago, you got yours and I got mine.
    I'm sorry, but what's going on here is actually the other way around: you are trying to enforce your arbitrary redefinition of the term to suit your narrative. "Pay-to-win" has never meant what you insist it does.

    And again, it's not "my" definition of the term. It's the actual definition of the word.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    i've never gotten a "you win" screen when i got cutting edge. so why can THIS be considered the ONLY end goal for not just raiding, but all PvE? seems just as arbitrary. it's not even the hardest thing you can do in raiding, it's just the last thing that gives an achievement.
    Mythic raiding is the pinnacle of difficulty for PvE, and there is the "hall of fame" for the first 100 guilds world-wide to kill the last raid boss in mythic difficulty.

    So it's not really arbitrary.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  15. #1135
    I can't believe 10 pages later and this guy is still arguing that the game is pay to win while changing definitions and moving goalposts just to avoid admitting his take is wrong lol

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Nope, neither of us are either wrong or right.

    Its subjective.
    In this situation, you are wrong, as explained multiple times. You trying to say "neither of us are wrong or right" or "agree to disagree" just feels like a desperate attempt from your part to save face.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    What the hell does it matter where the gold comes from? You pay real money and receive gold that gives you everything in the game. You pay and WIN .
    It can't get simpler than that.
    Just wanted to point out: gold is not getting me a spot in the Mythic Hall of Fame.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  17. #1137
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And again, it's not "my" definition of the term. It's the actual definition of the word.
    Technically speaking there is no actual definition of the term "pay-to-win" since there is no valid authority to define it. There is therefore some level of subjectivity in the definition.

    That being said there are broadly accepted definitions. There are also subjective interpretations that make sense and then there are those don't. I would agree with you that @Vidhjerta's definition is neither in alignment with the broadly accepted definitions, nor does it make any real sense on any level. Even accepting that the possibility of multiple correct definitions, his definitely is not one of those.

  18. #1138
    I don't have an opinion on whether WoW is pay to win or not, but I would like to know what people that adamantly defended WoW as not being one, what games they would consider to be pay to win, and why.

    I do agree that if your definition of winning is getting Glad, HoF, etc, buying tokens for BoEs isn't really going to get you there, but it definitely alleviates a chunk of the gearing process, especially when it comes to Corruptions.

    The first thing that comes to my mind that's commonly perceived as pay to win are trading card games, and even then you can argue that's also just "pay to advance".

  19. #1139
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,957
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    I don't have an opinion on whether WoW is pay to win or not, but I would like to know what people that adamantly defended WoW as not being one, what games they would consider to be pay to win, and why.
    Any game where beating the content in a reasonable/competitive amount of time requires spending cash in order to activate some kind of in-game buff/boost. And where failing to "pay" means suffering a significant penalty/disadvantage compared to those who do pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    I do agree that if your definition of winning is getting Glad, HoF, etc, buying tokens for BoEs isn't really going to get you there, but it definitely alleviates a chunk of the gearing process, especially when it comes to Corruptions.
    Well it can, no question there. But is it mandatory? Does failing to buy gold with tokens make it very difficult to compete with those who do? I would argue not, on the basis that it's perfectly feasible to acquire all the gold you actually need in-game without needing to resort tokens. Tokens are pretty much the resort of people who either suck at making gold, or simply can't be bothered to put in even a low level of effort.

  20. #1140
    You buy gold from other players, not Blizzard. Similarly, you buy gear from other players, not Blizzard. It could only be P2W if Blizzard were selling these things and they're not. If I buy a WoW token Blizzard does not manufacture gold nor gear out of thin air for me to buy.

    People go on and on about these things but as long as gold or items are tradeable there will be transactions between players and that is NOT pay to win. The only thing Blizzard has done is to facilitate those transactions so that they are safe for the players involved, while skimming a bit off the top for themselves.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •