WOW- Now pay to win?

[Kralljin]

Ok, dismissing other people's thoughts always shows a disinterest in being proven wrong, good to know.

No, it's just a pointless thought game.

You said it yourself: It's hypothetical, so don't get pissed when some people aren't interested in those hypothetical scenarios that only have a tangential connection to the discussion at hand.

[ymirsson]

Yeah, cherry picking your discussions, lest you might lose. I understand. Have a good day.

[Subrias]

Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.

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Those are my words indeed, and I just call it as I see it after seeing your replies.

You didn't win the game, you won a small victory over someone else. Lol..

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This whole thread is full of misunderstanding probably because the people who are confused never played any game besides wow. In other games such as final fantasy 14, it takes 3-6 months to finish the storyline or some crazy amount of time. This can be skipped with a 20 dollar storyline purchase from the shop. That’s what P2W is. Not optional cosmetics.

Thats not p2w.. you don't get any advantage in the end game. its also not a skip to max level. Its like wow's is where its a skip to the end of the previous expansion. In fact, you have to buy a separate skip if you want to skip the story as well as get the level boost. Its mainly meant for people who are doing a second server or character so they don't have to spend the long amount of time doing the story.

[Sansnom]

Did you buy the gold from Blizzard via the WoW token?
Technically, yes.

Technically, Blizzard is not selling gold. They are acting as a broker. The gold was acquired in game from another player. At least that is how I understand the token systems works, which also explains the varying market price for the gold.

As for gear, again, Blizzard is not selling items. Players are which were acquire via playing.

Yes, players are buying items from others with gold. That has been around since the game started.

Does this translate to pay-to-win? That I think is subjective.

[Kralljin]

Technically, Blizzard is not selling gold. They are acting as a broker. The gold was acquired in game from another player. At least that is how I understand the token systems works, which also explains the varying market price for the gold.

Blizzard has essentially positioned themselves as the middle man between a gold seller and the gold buyer.

People can now sell their gold to play the game for free while others can buy said gold for real money.

The basic transaction is still the same.
You give Blizzard Money, you get something that you turn into gold in return.

It's quite frankly a rather lame excuse to hide behind, people are using the benefits of the WoW token for the buyer as an argument, but that doesn't negate the concept of trading real money for an ingame advantage.

Does this translate to pay-to-win? That I think is subjective.

I don't think this is subjective, you just have to think things through.

You can buy gold, gold which can buy you items.
Simply because there is the additional step of selling the WoW token, doesn't remove the implication.

[Eosia]

You can purchase enough gold to buy ilvl boosting.

The game's indirectly P2W.

No, you're trying to split hairs. P2W is you Pay Blizzard and Blizzard gives you the gear. And Carries have been around since Vanilla.

MAYBE IT AFFECTS ME BECAUSE IM NOT A WOW-BILLIONAIRE AND PREFERRED THE NORMAL PRICES?[/B]

And your point is what? Unless you waste your gold eventually you will be able to buy it. It's not going away unlike the Brutosaur that Blizzard stupidly removed this morning.

[ymirsson]

I don't think this is subjective, you just have to think things through.

If you think this way and other people differently, it is the very definition of subjective.

[rhorle]

You're paying someone real money to play the game for you, that's the crux. Too bad i'm not interested engaging in hypothetical mind games, so tough luck.

But isn't that how it always goes when buying things from other players? Their time, and real money cost to access the game, for your convenience of getting that service/item/thing. You aren't paying someone real money. You are paying Blizzard. Battle.net balance is not real money and can not be cashed out. So when you buy a token for $20 you are keeping that money in the Blizzard ecosystem. There is no real money transferred between players.

There are no hypothetical mind games. This is how the system works.

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It's quite frankly a rather lame excuse to hide behind, people are using the benefits of the WoW token for the buyer as an argument, but that doesn't negate the concept of trading real money for an ingame advantage.

Having more gold doesn't give you an immediate in game advantage though. It just opens up more opportunities but you still need to find people to give you an advantage. So you are paying for the same opportunity wealth creates with out paying. Weird isn't it? That the advantage gained from having a lot of gold is equally with or without a token. And depending on the prices of the token you don't really gain an advantage over a good farming, flipping, or other gold making technique.

A tailoring shuffle can generate more gold then a token relatively easily if the AH price of cloth is low enough. So there really isn't any advantage being gained from the token.

[Kralljin]

If you think this way and other people differently, it is the very definition of subjective.

No, it's not.

If somebody says "I think 2+2=4 is subjective", then i disagree.
You're taking my disagreement as proof that this is in fact subjective, which is just straight false.

My point is, there is no fundamental difference between buying the WoW token and buying gold in a general sense, at least from the buyers perspective.
You pay real money, you receive gold, or in the case of the WoW token, something that you will sell for gold.

If you think buying gold is pay to win, then the logical consequence is that the WoW token is also pay to win.
Therefore, it's not subjective.

If you think that buying gold itself isn't pay to win, then whatever, but then you're raising the bar for something qualifying as pay to win so high, that i believe it's intentional for the sake of disagreeing.

Having more gold doesn't give you an immediate in game advantage though

The ability to buy items grants you an advantage.
Especially in the enviroment before the corruption vendor where you were able to buy extremely powerful BoE items.

And depending on the prices of the token you don't really gain an advantage over a good farming, flipping, or other gold making technique.

And guess what the latter gold farming techniques have in common and differentiate themselves from the WoW token?

You have to play the game in some fashion, you have to invest your own time to in order to farm gold within the game.
Not to mention that activities such as flipping actually involves the risk of losing gold.

How do you gain gold via the WoW token?
Pull out your credit card.
Takes little time and has 0 risk.

The difference is clear, you just once again employ mental gymnastics to order to obscure the obvious.

[ymirsson]

No, it's not.

If somebody says "I think 2+2=4 is subjective", then i disagree.
You're taking my disagreement as proof that this is in fact subjective, which is just straight false.

My point is, there is no fundamental difference between buying the WoW token and buying gold in a general sense, at least from the buyers perspective.
You pay real money, you receive gold, or in the case of the WoW token, something that you will sell for gold.

If you think buying gold is pay to win, then the logical consequence is that the WoW token is also pay to win.
Therefore, it's not subjective.

If you think that buying gold itself isn't pay to win, then whatever, but then you're raising the bar for something qualifying as pay to win so high, that i believe it's intentional for the sake of disagreeing.

And my point is, you saying "this is p2w" is not comparable to someone using basic maths and calculating the sum of 2+2.

Obviously what constitutes paytowin is a discussion with different opinions. I didn't even say that buying gold is paytowin. Therefore, unless we magically arrive at the ultimate truth, however that might be possible, the view on tokens is a subjective one.

[rhorle]

The ability to buy items grants you an advantage. Especially in the enviroment before the corruption vendor where you were able to buy extremely powerful BoE items.

So you get an advantage by having the same thing anyone else who has wealth has? That isn't an advantage it is becoming equal. You keep implying that corruption was super pay to win. And yet didn't the world first guilds not even use RMT to buy that power? They used primarily gold loans?

And guess what the latter gold farming techniques have in common and differentiate themselves from the WoW token?
You have to play the game in some fashion. How do you gain gold via the WoW token? Pull out your credit card. The difference is clear, you just once again employ mental gymnastics to order to obscure the obvious.

You can't buy a WoW token if no one earns the gold in-game first. Again tokens do not generate any wealth. They just transfer it. While it is rarer now a days the AH can run out of tokens for sale which means you can't just take out a credit card and gain gold. I am not employing any mental gymnastics. I am just not glossing over the way the system works to hyper focus only on "pay to win".

[kurn1701]

Wow isnt even close to pay to win.
Just play a game like world of tanks.
Buy gold, buy premium tanks, buy premium ammo.
Win

[Kralljin]

the view on tokens is a subjective one.

What you mean is whether buying gold constitutes as pay to win is subjective, the token is here just a means of acquiring gold for real money.

And i stick to what i said above about people who think that buying gold isn't pay to win.

So you get an advantage by having the same thing anyone else who has wealth has?

...what?
Person A has no Gold.
Person B has no Gold.

Person A buys WoW token, sells it, buys BoE's.
Person B doesn't buy the WoW token and thus cannot buy BoE's.

Person A is objectively stronger than Person B.

That isn't an advantage it is becoming equal.

Having better gear than someone is obviously an advantage.

And yet didn't the world first guilds not even use RMT to buy that power? They used primarily gold loans?

https://twitter.com/ScripeWoW/status...52868115128322
If you happen to ask yourself why:
Because it's cheaper and when we're talking about Millions of gold, that makes a difference.

Also:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...rs_are_banned/

You can't buy a WoW token if no one earns the gold in-game first.

Mate, just stop with this utterly terrible argument.
I've said it multiple times by now, the basic transaction remains the same, simply because the gold isn't magically generated out thin air doesn't dispel anything but it not being pay to win.

Gold farmers also often farm their gold via the auction house.

I am just not glossing over the way the system works to hyper focus only on "pay to win".

At least you're admitting that it is pay to win.

[rhorle]

Mate, just stop with this utterly terrible argument. I've said it multiple times by now, the basic transaction remains the same, simply because the gold isn't magically generated out thin air doesn't dispel anything but it not being pay to win.

You are the one that said earning gold in-game doesn't make using gold to buy power pay to win. Token's work off of gold earned in game. If it is a terrible argument then you shouldn't have used it yourself.

[Tesshin83]

Its not going to untill people can buy the ability to not fail at mechanics from AH.

[Stardrift]

No, you're trying to split hairs. P2W is you Pay Blizzard and Blizzard gives you the gear. And Carries have been around since Vanilla.



And your point is what? Unless you waste your gold eventually you will be able to buy it. It's not going away unlike the Brutosaur that Blizzard stupidly removed this morning.

You can buy carries with gold. You can buy gold with real money.

By definition, that is P2W, you incessant fangirl. Call it what it is, no need to deny it.

[rhorle]

You can buy carries with gold. You can buy gold with real money.

Is buying an enchant pay to win as well? What about stamina potions? Wealth gives you a lot of advantages in the game but none of them are automatically given because you use real life money. You don't buy the wins. You buy easier access to them. There are people that bought the AH mount without buying tokens. Have they earned a $720 advantage over other players?

[Kralljin]

You are the one that said earning gold in-game doesn't make using gold to buy power pay to win. Token's work off of gold earned in game. If it is a terrible argument then you shouldn't have used it yourself.

Imagine that there is a difference between farming gold yourself and buying it.
Which i have mentioned multiple by now, yet this difference somehow flies over head.

The reasoning "someone else farmed it" does not negate the fact that you're buying gold for real money, you haven't worked for that gold yourself within the game, this is where the issue lies, play the game for what you want to earn within the game, not whip out your credit card.

[LordTakeo]

You can buy carries with gold. You can buy gold with real money.

By definition, that is P2W, you incessant fangirl. Call it what it is, no need to deny it.

I mean, is it really p2w, if there have to be already people strong enough to offer carries? What do you win? Not having world first? Just the shiny items you'd get over time anyways? Getting that mount from the AV alot of people with more dedication/time get anyways?

But I get your point. It is technically p2w in that sense, even if the price isn't that grand.

Edit: Not saying that gear boe's from AH buying like bfa isn't p2w, cause it clearly was. Am specifically just putting the carry thing into question.

[ymirsson]

You can buy carries with gold. You can buy gold with real money.

By definition, that is P2W, you incessant fangirl. Call it what it is, no need to deny it.

No, thats paying for the achievement, for the title, the loot.
Boosts are an unhealthy development, getting more obnoxious every day, but it's not the same as overcoming a paywall to winning.

maybe we need an official definition of p2w, because for me, there's a definite difference between some idiot getting carried to CE for gold and buying premium equipment like other games allow.