WOW- Now pay to win?

[Eosia]

You can buy carries with gold. You can buy gold with real money.

Except you are missing the crucial element that the payment has to go to Blizzard and directly results in you getting the item(s) from Blizzard. It would be like putting THunderfury in the Blizzard Store.

By definition, that is P2W, you incessant fangirl. Call it what it is, no need to deny it.

And as you have descended to the level of personal attack, I accept your surrender. I'll pray to Felecia, Patron Saint of Farewells, for you.

[rhorle]

The reasoning "someone else farmed it" does not negate the fact that you're buying gold for real money, you haven't worked for that gold yourself within the game, this is where the issue lies, play the game for what you want to earn within the game, not whip out your credit card.

But what if you buy a token then buy a boost? Is it pay to win still? What if the gold gained from the token isn't part of the gold that is going to the boost? Are tokens still pay to win? You have to whip out your credit card to even play the game so using your logic the game is all pay to win and thus this discussion is moot.

[Redhell]

Here's what's crazy: those of you that still unironically believe that WoW is a P2W game because of the boosting culture don't seem to understand that anything that would be considering "winning" is either not available or so insanely expensive you would have to spend hundreds of dollars just to barely afford the boost and the amount of people willing to do that are so unbelievably small it's outright dense to even consider them to be a problem.

There were more people back in the Chinese gold-selling days buying more gold for less money when adjusted for inflation. Because of prepatch, the token has rebounded a bit, but it dropped as low as ~110k. So that albino dinosaur ol boy argued about for 10 pages would be $100 at that price which is straight up comedy.

The point is, the game isn't pay to win. It's not now, and it probably won't ever be. If you truly, 100% believe that it is, then you should honestly just quit and/or stop wasting your time posting on public forums about it. You just look silly and bitter.

[Sansnom]

I don't think this is subjective, you just have to think things through.

You can buy gold, gold which can buy you items.
Simply because there is the additional step of selling the WoW token, doesn't remove the implication.

By that definition then, WoW has always been pay-2-win because that kind of gold transaction between players has existed since day 1. It has exist for almost every MMO games because players offering such services exists there also.

So why is this such a big issues 10+ years after the games, after so many MMO games been around?

[Baneto]

You don't win anything by buying gold though. Because it transfers wealth and does not create it. All you are doing is coming in second place to a person that has already won that gold.

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Did you read the description of the white version of the mount? It literally references a gold sink by saying the color makes it rare and thus expensive. The AH mount is a gold sink. All high priced mounts are gold sinks. They have invested development resources into gold sinks over the years. Expensive mounts are not created for "dumb players".

I do win the items through the auctions so yeah, I paid to win them if you can understand that much?

The goldsinks are created by dumb people en masse since they have no clue what to do with the economy in-game and are completely out of touch with the community, based on the decision of making every mount in BFA a goldsink mount because a small percentage of players are wall street-type AH stock brokers and millionaires.

If you are a mount collector then you do the paragon caches

Each gives 3-5k

Also running raids like fire lands gets 3k

If you are never able to afford overpriced mounts (they’ve always existed even in wrath) then it’s on you

Maybe if I focused every minute in-game I would be able to amass such amounts of gold with that method, but then I would likely hate the game.

It’s only pay to win if you’re so bad you cannot get in a guild that does stuff or refuse to join a guild. My guess is you fit into one of those two categories and have decided your only choice since no one wants to play with you is to buy tokens and pay for carries. So a good edit would be “I’m bad so this game is p2w”

Im in a CE guild so your argument falls short, sorry but it has nothing to do with how "good your guild is" thats a non-argument.

The problem is that you're being a contrarian just to be argumentative. In no way is the game P2W and you've provided no proof. When pushed on it you ignore actual claims and push nonsense criticisms again for the sake of argument. I hope you don't use the Auction House at all because a potential buyer might be using Token Gold

Yeah my opinions are nonsense huh? I think the same of yours, you'r world-view is so small you cant even consider anyone elses.

You didn't win the game, you won a small victory over someone else. Lol..

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Thats not p2w.. you don't get any advantage in the end game. its also not a skip to max level. Its like wow's is where its a skip to the end of the previous expansion. In fact, you have to buy a separate skip if you want to skip the story as well as get the level boost. Its mainly meant for people who are doing a second server or character so they don't have to spend the long amount of time doing the story.

Yes it is p2w, because a win is subjective! But you dont wanna hear that, you wanna be right about an opinion.


Its ridiculous.

[Raelbo]

I have no idea how you can play the game in 2020 (and 8.3 of all patches!) And unironically claim its not p2w.

Then pay attention because it's been spelled out multiple times already.

It's not p2w because you don't have to pay in order to win.

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Yes it is p2w, because a win is subjective! But you dont wanna hear that, you wanna be right about an opinion.

You were adamant in that you said you understood my earlier argument. So why are still persisting with this entirely irrelevant strawman argument?

Yes, "a win is subjective". But it doesn't matter how you define win, tokens still only achieve one thing: giving you some gold. WoW is not p2w because there is no requirement to spend $$ in order to acquire that gold. And if you don't have to pay to win, then it's not pay to win. It's that simple.

[Baneto]

Then pay attention because it's been spelled out multiple times already.

It's not p2w because you don't have to pay in order to win.

Sorry but your opinion is not the same as facts here, as I have been trying to tell you.

[Raelbo]

Or I can stick to logic from the perspective of a business which is what they are.

No offence, but ignoring facts in order to buy into conspiracy theories is not particularly logical.

Look, I have little doubt that Blizzard are aware that things like are likely to translate into some extra token sales. That doesn't mean that garnering token sales was their primary objective or what drives the existence of gold sinks - things that existed long before tokens were even a thing.

[Your Mommy]

I see 475ilvl items with socket and good corruption for like 2-3 million on the AH. So now ppl buy wow tokens for real life money and then buy this items...

Is this good gameplay or not? Pay to win?

Blizzard probly happy about it as they earn more $$$

Isn't it more like... "Pay for a shortcut"?
I mean, if people play normally and regularly, they'll be able to have the same or better items than the one you used in your example.
I am not saying I like it, I am just saying as long as people who progress normally aren't forced to pay money to get ahead or progress further, then I am happy.

[Raelbo]

Sorry but your opinion is not the same as facts here, as I have been trying to tell you.

Please don't try to condescend to me. I (and others here) have gone to pains to try and engage your argument, and guided you through exactly what the issue with your argument is. Yet it's pretty evident that you can't be bothered to afford the same courtesy to us.

Go back and read what I wrote, understand it, and then, if for some inexplicable reason you still don't get it, then engage me on where you disagree and why.

[Baneto]

Please don't try to condescend to me. I (and others here) have gone to pains to try and engage your argument, and guided you through exactly what the issue with your argument is. Yet it's pretty evident that you can't be bothered to afford the same courtesy to us.

Go back and read what I wrote, understand it, and then, if for some inexplicable reason you still don't get it, then engage me on where you disagree and why.

Oh, I've been called stupid and lots of things for not sharing the same opinion on the subject so you'll be fine.

I appreciate your point of view, but I disagree and I have told you my stance numerous times that a win is subjective and so is the argument.

[Raelbo]

Broadly accepted by you, not me. I dont give a rats ass if my definitions or opinions are broadly accepted or not.

Dude, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion doesn't automatically make all opinions equal. And while many opinions have merit (even conflicting ones), some are just outright wrong.

The problem with your opinion is not just that it isn't broadly accepted (which would be one possible means of validating an opinion), but your opinion also doesn't make any real sense. So overall it's a pretty poor opinion.

Ironically, it doesn't even matter. If you don't have to pay to achieve it, it doesn't matter how you define "Win".

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I appreciate your point of view, but I disagree and I have told you my stance numerous times that a win is subjective and so is the argument.

Dude, the problem is you say you disagree with me, then repeat a stance that doesn't, in any way, rebutt what I said. That's not disagreeing with me, it's ignoring what I said. Which tells me one of two things: Either you don't actually comprehend what I said, or you have no answer to it.

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Isn't it more like... "Pay for a shortcut"?

It's actually pay to get other players to help you.

I mean, if people play normally and regularly, they'll be able to have the same or better items than the one you used in your example.
I am not saying I like it, I am just saying as long as people who progress normally aren't forced to pay money to get ahead or progress further, then I am happy.

Agreed. Also, as long as this holds true, WoW is not pay to win since people don't have to pay to win.

[Viikkis]

If a super good BoE costs 2 million gold (number taken from OP talking about some BoE's costing 2-3 mil). To buy that one BoE in EU right now would require about 10 tokens 20€ each giving around 207K gold.

That is 200€ for one BoE. Now I don't know who the f would spend 200€ for one item. But I would imagine not too many people would do that to make a difference.

[Baneto]

Dude, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion doesn't automatically make all opinions equal. And while many opinions have merit (even conflicting ones), some are just outright wrong.

The problem with your opinion is not just that it isn't broadly accepted (which would be one possible means of validating an opinion), but your opinion also doesn't make any real sense. So overall it's a pretty poor opinion.

Ironically, it doesn't even matter. If you don't have to pay to achieve it, it doesn't matter how you define "Win".

Of course they are, thats why they are called opinions.

Or are you the internet legislator of opinions? Sure seems like it when you try to push your opinions on everybody in each of your posts.

I dont give a flying fuck if someone gets his panties in a bunch because my opinion dont align with theirs, sorry not sorry.

[Raelbo]

everybody calls it that as soon as you can buy non-cosmetics/convenience things. then it becomes "it's pay to win, but here is why it doesn't ruin the game" for the better games.

Some people do. But I would argue that it stems from a lack of understanding and poor reasoning skills.

"pay to win" means, quite simply, that if you pay, you win, if you don't pay, you don't win. Based on this, it's pretty obvious to see that cosmetic/convenience things don't qualify. The problem is that some people then conclude that if something isn't cosmetic/convenience then it must be pay-to-win. Which is, of course, false logic and leads to all kinds of arguments when something like the token (which is not cosmetic/convenience) enters the picture.

For people who understand what pay-to-win is and what it means, the token clearly isn't pay-to-win on the basis that it fails to meet the criterion of "if you don't pay, you don't win". But it's pretty easy to see how less adept commentators might be confused by the fact that it isn't cosmetic/convenience, and can be a means of advancing your character.

in wows case it would be "it's pay to win, but it's prohibitively expensive for the really important things and not very impactful for the regular things, so it hasn't ruined the game (yet)."

Not really. In WoW's case it is not pay to win because you don't have to buy tokens in order to acquire gold. It's far more expedient to acquire gold by being good at the game. And because of the way the token system works, by transferring gold from one player to another, Tokens cannot become the most effective way of acquiring gold.

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Of course they are, thats why they are called opinions.

You're categorically wrong on this. If it is my opinion that the Earth is shaped like a giant disc and is supported by 4 elephants riding on the back of a giant turtle through space, my opinion would be entirely without merit (ie wrong).

But that's besides the damn point. Like I keep saying, it's irrelevant. No one's opinion on what constitutes a "win" matters on the question of "is WoW pay-to-win?" if you don't need to pay to achieve it. So you sitting here arguing about the validity of your opinion on what "win" is, would be about as relevant as someone trying to argue the finer points of discworld geography and then getting mad at everyone.

[razorpax]

I do win the items through the auctions so yeah, I paid to win them if you can understand that much?

The goldsinks are created by dumb people en masse since they have no clue what to do with the economy in-game and are completely out of touch with the community, based on the decision of making every mount in BFA a goldsink mount because a small percentage of players are wall street-type AH stock brokers and millionaires.

Maybe if I focused every minute in-game I would be able to amass such amounts of gold with that method, but then I would likely hate the game.


Im in a CE guild so your argument falls short, sorry but it has nothing to do with how "good your guild is" thats a non-argument.

Yeah my opinions are nonsense huh? I think the same of yours, you'r world-view is so small you cant even consider anyone elses.

Yes it is p2w, because a win is subjective! But you dont wanna hear that, you wanna be right about an opinion.


Its ridiculous.

Hyperbole is not your friend

“1% drop rate mounts require me to spend all my in game time to obtain” Is your logic applied to actual drops


It’s not p2w when you just have to not be lazy

[Yorimar]

Then you are one of very few and wealthy players, I can assure you the vast majority of players dont amass those numbers.

There were a clik of opportunists that made bank during WoD and Legion, not everybody. So I dont agree with the inflation-argument.

you are both correct. while not many players have millions of gold, its because of the ones that do, they made those gold sinks. they even nerfed the missions in wod for those '10 players' who were banking

OT: wow became p2w the second they added a wow token. at the end of the day someone had to do RMT to get that token into the game to sell it for gold

[Baneto]

You're categorically wrong on this. If it is my opinion that the Earth is shaped like a giant disc and is supported by 4 elephants riding on the back of a giant turtle through space, my opinion would be entirely without merit (ie wrong).

But that's besides the damn point. Like I keep saying, it's irrelevant. No one's opinion on what constitutes a "win" matters on the question of "is WoW pay-to-win?" if you don't need to pay to achieve it. So you sitting here arguing about the validity of your opinion on what "win" is, would be about as relevant as someone trying to argue the finer points of discworld geography and then getting mad at everyone.

Nope, not wrong at all.

You on the other hand are wrong if you think you'll change my opinion.

Hyperbole is not your friend

“1% drop rate mounts require me to spend all my in game time to obtain” Is your logic applied to actual drops


It’s not p2w when you just have to not be lazy

If I can succeed in 10 minutes to achieve something with a wow-token that would take a week to do at the AH I consider it a win, so yeah.

[Raelbo]

If a super good BoE costs 2 million gold (number taken from OP talking about some BoE's costing 2-3 mil). To buy that one BoE in EU right now would require about 10 tokens 20€ each giving around 207K gold.

That is 200€ for one BoE. Now I don't know who the f would spend 200€ for one item. But I would imagine not too many people would do that to make a difference.

I am not disagreeing with your assessment here, but I would point out that this is basically a red-herring.

Even though it might seem like it, nothing about this is pay-to-win.

1) You're not buying BoE's from vendors. They're obtained by players doing content
2) You're not creating gold from Tokens, you're getting it from other players

Part of being an MMO is being able to trade stuff with other players and working with other players to get stuff done. Being able to obtain gold from other players is part of that and has nothing to do with p2w because p2w is about transactions between the player and the game.

[Baneto]

You're just splitting hairs at this point Raelbo, just accept that other people have different opinions than you on what P2W is.