WOW- Now pay to win?

[kaminaris]

????

$20 for the token goes right to Blizz

I thought so, you don't know economy. Only 5$ goes to blizz.

[Baneto]

I thought so, you don't know economy. Only 5$ goes to blizz.

Enough with the rude attitude, he not knowing about what amount of cut Blizzard takes =/= not "knowing economy".

[kaminaris]

Enough with the rude attitude, he not knowing about what amount of cut Blizzard takes =/= not "knowing economy".

No because this is how uninformed opinions are presented as facts while being completely false, such as your statements about game being P2W.

[Baneto]

No because this is how uninformed opinions are presented as facts while being completely false, such as your statements about game being P2W.

Thats a lot of confidence you're portraying despite your complete ignorance, but thats how a lot of people are like irl as well.

[kaminaris]

Thats a lot of confidence you're portraying despite your complete ignorance, but thats how a lot of people are like irl as well.

There is no ignorance here. I already told you, going with your logic I could hire people to "win" things in game.
That is your ignorance "its a pay to win if it fits my imaginary criteria while ignoring all the loopholes in it"

[Baneto]

There is no ignorance here. I already told you, going with your logic I could hire people to "win" things in game.
That is your ignorance "its a pay to win if it fits my imaginary criteria while ignoring all the loopholes in it"

Thats fair opinion and has nothing to do with ignorance.

You on the other hand is completely ignorant of that other people have different opinions than you.

More of the "MUHH my opinion is best opinion!" garbage.

[Eosia]

The payment goes to Blizzard and you're free to spend it on anything. Anything you purchase in the game is all stuff that is developed by Blizzard.

What is your logic here? Quit reaching to defend something that is very blatantly P2W. It's okay, people will still love and play the game if
you let go and quit trying to force the idea that the game hasn't become P2W.

The only one reaching here is you. Buying a carry is not "paying to win". Pay-2-Win has a definition outside this thread. It is paying the developer real money in which results in items being directly given to the buyer which results in them having an advantage over everyone else who does not pay the extra. You do not get to change that definition just because you are jealous.

First and foremost let's look at the gear... The game's loot tables are randomized with very few exceptions like Mythic mounts from the capital bosses, which are cosmetic anyways and irrelevant to this topic, so there is no guarantee that that the loot a person wants will drop. Yes, Personal Loot can be gamed a bit by stacking the raid with more people of that class/armor type but it still will not guarantee a full set of gear.

Second, there are people who only give Blizzard the $15-20 monthly access fee who are geared AF. And those people are selling carries. So the peoiple buying the carry have no advantage. And considering the outside metrics like Raider.IO, they obviously are not going to be getting into bleeding-edge guilds at the top tiers of raiding and such.

Even more than that, just having the gear is not "winning". There is one fundamental law in WoW that has existed since Vanilla was live. The best way I have heard it put is "Good Gear Does Not Make Good Players. It Just Hides Bad Ones."

[Baneto]

*arguing opinions*

Its pointless, everyone can have their own definition on what is a win to them.

You dont get to dictate that for anyone else.

[Orange Joe]

Dude, just because everyone is entitled to an opinion doesn't automatically make all opinions equal. And while many opinions have merit (even conflicting ones), some are just outright wrong. .

As an outsider to you two arguing. What makes your opinion right and his wrong?

[Ielenia]

Im done debating this, you cannot argue opinions on "whos opinion is right".

Yes, you can.
• "My opinion is that sticking your bare hand into a pan of boiling oil does not harm your hand."
• "My opinion is that sticking your bare hand into a pan of boiling oil does harm your hand."

I hope even you would agree that there is a wrong opinion and a right opinion in the examples above.

Nice try bringing up something like math to compare subjective opinions on a completely different matter.

Except it's not subjective. You are insisting and trying to push that it is a subjective matter just so you don't have to admit that you're wrong in your redefinitions of the term "pay to win".

WoW is pay to win wether you like it or not, its no my fault you're either too proud or too blinded by your love for Blizzard to realize it.

What was it that you said about opinions, again? Seems like you're admitting that there is such a thing as "wrong opinions"...

And, once again, as basically everyone has told you here: no, WoW is not pay to win, "whether you like it or not, it's not my fault you're either too proud or too blinded by your hate for Blizzard to realize it", as you put it.

[Stardrift]

No because this is how uninformed opinions are presented as facts while being completely false, such as your statements about game being P2W.

LMFAO

So because most of the cut doesn't go to Blizz, it means the transaction isn't P2W? What a reach. Keep churning out excuses

[Baneto]

rambling about opinions

I take it english isnt your first language, going to put you on ignore now.

Have a nice day.

[Stardrift]

The only one reaching here is you. Buying a carry is not "paying to win". Pay-2-Win has a definition outside this thread. It is paying the developer real money in which results in items being directly given to the buyer which results in them having an advantage over everyone else who does not pay the extra. You do not get to change that definition just because you are jealous.

First and foremost let's look at the gear... The game's loot tables are randomized with very few exceptions like Mythic mounts from the capital bosses, which are cosmetic anyways and irrelevant to this topic, so there is no guarantee that that the loot a person wants will drop. Yes, Personal Loot can be gamed a bit by stacking the raid with more people of that class/armor type but it still will not guarantee a full set of gear.

Second, there are people who only give Blizzard the $15-20 monthly access fee who are geared AF. And those people are selling carries. So the peoiple buying the carry have no advantage. And considering the outside metrics like Raider.IO, they obviously are not going to be getting into bleeding-edge guilds at the top tiers of raiding and such.

Even more than that, just having the gear is not "winning". There is one fundamental law in WoW that has existed since Vanilla was live. The best way I have heard it put is "Good Gear Does Not Make Good Players. It Just Hides Bad Ones."

Shit is P2W mate. You're buying a currency with real life money, then spending that currency to get ahead of other players.

End of story lol

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As an outsider to you two arguing. What makes your opinion right and his wrong?

People have no idea what an opinion is, especially when fact is brought to the table. A fact is not an opinion. Those that are wrong are trying to lie in order to defend their favourite video game, and are stretching to call fact an "opinion that is objectively wrong".

[Alkizon]

Theme (in a sense) overlaps with game token's discussions, which arise quite regularly. Here I'm, perhaps, more on the side of those who're trying to prove that it's enough "real money" involvement for a full-fledged discussion to appear... but even then I'll clarify that the more significant is degree of growth/progress (and hence "bought power/advantage", leap) and the more difficult it is to obtain such (effort/time), the more relevant question is. And now... *coughing looking at ilvl growth, systems of dungeon/raid modes and degree of influence of secondary/earned&purchased "borrowed powers"* you can continue your discussion in more focused and reasoned sense.

I'm against involvement of real money in "valuable" process, and it doesn't matter for me whether it's illegal third-party persons or company itself. I'd understand if they just provide (= encouraged with) subscription or wow/blizzard-money (which can't be obtained by real currency, only by playing games, possible even can be donated to others within dev's "virtual space", kind of "reputation/merit" points) in exchange for virtual gold while zealously protecting very process of in-game earnings (turning it into something like representative/advertising/promotional part of their "expenses/financial losses" ⇒ support of honest, stable and hardworking subscriber (also polite&helpful?); it's clear that this would have to revise current prices for such services), but they don't do it, they don’t bother about both. Their decision is "freebie and laziness", yes it's profitable, no one will deny it, but imo it's also dishonorable and unfortunate for in-game climate and game design (imposes certain requirements and restrictions, which I talk about in link at the beginning of this message).

[Kralljin]

but for someone who undoubtedly gains benefits from boosting to whine about gold sink mounts

In other words, despite being a benefactor from its existence, i am against it, which is an indicator that it's not the best for the game.

That aside, Gold sink mounts are a different story, i was mainly focusing on the pay to win aspect of the WoW Token due to overabundance of boosting services and the availability of powerful items on the auction house (altough the latter has lessened as the whole corruption issue was indirectly resolved).

Gold Sinks are kinda an issue on their own, while Gold sinks serve the purpose of deflating the economy, they also give gold more value as you can buy more stuff for gold, which in turn makes it more attractive to sell gold / buy the WoW Token (as gold has more value).

However, the people who possibly choose to pay to real money to buy goldsinks (be it mounts or anything else) might go with goldselling sites as those are far cheaper than the WoW Token and do not have the same restrictions.

It's the unfortunate side effect of them, they deflate the economy, but also promote using those services, including those that are clearly against the ToS.

Right. So you don't get power from buying gold. You get power from things you acquire with gold. So it is pay to potentially acquire and not pay to win.

By that logic, no game is pay to win unless your damage directly scales with the currency you buy.

Like, this is the mental gymnastics i'm talking about.
If people can buy gold, which they can use to buy power, thus you can gain power by buying gold.

If you cannot follow this basic logic, then that's on you, but your lack of understanding doesn't remove the obvious implication.

[Ielenia]

I take it english isnt your first language, going to put you on ignore now.

Have a nice day.

You accuse me of "not being able to read english well", except you're the one here that not only insist on redefining the meaning of a term to fit their own narratives, but also insist that your arbitrary definition is just as valid as the actual definition. Saying "opinions are opinions, none are right or wrong" here is a cop-out. Over and over people have argued against your own personal redefinition of the term, and all you had to say to defend yourself are cop-out, dodgy answers.

Ignore me if you wish, but here's a fact you should keep in mind: putting someone on ignore doesn't make faulty arguments any less wrong. It only shows an unwillingness to have their claims challenged.

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People have no idea what an opinion is, especially when fact is brought to the table. A fact is not an opinion. Those that are wrong are trying to lie in order to defend their favourite video game, and are stretching to call fact an "opinion that is objectively wrong".

Funny. From where I'm standing, it's the other way around: "those that are wrong are trying to lie in order to attack their most hated video game."

[rhorle]

If people can buy gold, which they can use to buy power, thus you can gain power by buying gold. If you cannot follow this basic logic, then that's on you, but your lack of understanding doesn't remove the obvious implication.

But you are still not buying power. You are only buying gold and everything that allows in-game. Gold isn't a special currency just for buying power. The ability to gain power through an object is not what pay to win is traditionally used for. Using your logic buying a cosmetic mount is Pay to Win because it allows me to gain power providing travel to an instance. Or to and from herb nodes that I can then sell to get gold to buy a boost or BoE.

And yet very few people actually consider a cosmetic mount to be pay to win.

[Kralljin]

But you are still not buying power. You are only buying gold and everything that allows in-game.

It is so fucking hilarious to see attempting to exclude something that is clearly part what you can buy with gold.

The things that you can buy includes power, because it's not the only thing you can acquire with gold doesn't overrule that.

Using your logic buying a cosmetic mount is Pay to Win because it allows me to gain power providing travel to an instance. Or to and from herb nodes that I can then sell to get gold to buy a boost or BoE.

No, that's a strawman.

The power granted by a piece of equipment is fundamentally different than what a mount grants and on top of that entirely circumvents the fact that mounts are nothing remotely special, whereas items from current Mythic bosses are in fact special because a lot of people are unable to actually kill them on their own.

Again, obvious difference, yet you're being willfully ignorant of it to suit your argument.

[rhorle]

It is so fucking hilarious to see attempting to exclude something that is clearly part what you can buy with gold. The things that you can buy includes power, because it's not the only thing you can acquire with gold doesn't overrule that.

So you admit that the act of buying gold is not buying power. Because power is only part of what you can get by buying gold.

The power granted by a piece of equipment is fundamentally different than what a mount grants and on top of that entirely circumvents the fact that mounts are nothing remotely special, whereas items from current Mythic bosses are in fact special because a lot of people are unable to actually kill them on their own. Again, obvious difference, yet you're being willfully ignorant of it to suit your argument.

BoE items are nothing remotely special. They are sold all the time and they drop all the time. In fact most times BoE mounts, and the BMAH mounts, fetch a higher gold price then items. People used to trash farm BoE's. The reason people want them has nothing to do with how hard a boss is to kill.

[Kralljin]

So you admit that the act of buying gold is not buying power. Because power is only part of what you can get by buying gold.

IT INCLUDES POWER.

It's like you read what you want to read and then blot out the rest, the fact that you can also buy something else with gold doesn't mean you can't buy power with gold.

BoE items are nothing remotely special.

Boosts also exist and getting boosted for gold is allowed.

The reason people want them has nothing to do with how hard a boss is to kill.

It just blocks a lot of people from acquiring them the regular way.