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  1. #1421
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created.
    But the developer usually created every command. Even the ones that are not intended for the normal user. The developer created the environment and commands to circumvent restrictions, the commands for "clever uses of game mechanics".

    Where is the line?

  2. #1422
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    But the developer usually created every command. Even the ones that are not intended for the normal user. The developer created the environment and commands to circumvent restrictions, the commands for "clever uses of game mechanics". Where is the line?
    Right. That is what I said. Where is the confusion about a "line"?

    If a friend pays me $20 to do some stuff in Pokemon Sword and Shield does that mean the game is now pay to win? Because that is the argument you and others keep trying to make when bringing up third party sales. That if anyone pays someone to do something in a game, even if not official, then the game is labeled pay to win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #1423
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right. That is what I said. Where is the confusion about a "line"?
    So why do people get suspended for "clever use of game mechanics"? Why do normal WoW players have no access to admin commands?

  4. #1424
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    So why do people get suspended for "clever use of game mechanics"? Why do normal WoW players have no access to admin commands?
    Because "clever use of game mechanics" is against the Blizzard terms of service. Why is that even a question. Normal WoW players don't have access to admin commands because it isn't designed for them to have access. What exactly is the point you are working at with these silly questions?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2020-10-26 at 11:00 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #1425
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because "clever use of game mechanics" is against the Blizzard terms of service. Why is that even a question. Normal WoW players don't have access to admin commands because it isn't designed for them to have access. What exactly is the point you are working at with these silly questions?
    You said and i quote "It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created."

  6. #1426
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You said and i quote "It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created."
    Yes. I haven't disputed that I said that. Again what is your point? How does this relate to third party sellers of gold and classifying a game pay to win? Are you still going to claim that any RMT makes a game pay to win? If my friend gives me a $20 to catch some Pokemon in Sword and Shield does that mean that we can call the latest Pokemon game Pay to Win?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1427
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yes. I haven't disputed that I said that. Again what is your point?
    You contradicted your point. And now i wonder whether it is ok to use any command the developer made or not. Because you said yes and no.

  8. #1428
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You contradicted your point. And now i wonder whether it is ok to use any command the developer made or not. Because you said yes and no.
    I didn't say yes and no. I didn't contradict my point. If a developer added a cheat code to the game you are not "cheating" because it was a feature specifically added to the game. Third party tools like trainers do not give a game cheat codes even though it allows you to cheat. Just as third party sites selling things for real money do not make a game pay to win. Because it isn't "official".

    Just like some games, like WoW and most Online games, have terms of service that often restrict intent and don't allow you to do whatever just because you can.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer Morningstar View Post
    The disagreement we're having is apparently over the term "pay 2 win".

    You are describing is as a single transaction between A (Player) and B (Blizzard) which results in mythic gear and gladiator.
    While I am describing it as A (Player) giving B (Blizzard) money to get gold, which players want in return for mythic gear and gladiator.

    You can jump hoops around it and disagree over the term pay 2 win as much as you want. I accept that "technically" it's not p2w.
    Well that has pretty much been the entire point of what I have been arguing, and the topic of the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer Morningstar View Post
    At the end of the day, I spend 8-10 hours every week raiding in a top 100 guild to get mythic gear, then spend countless hours grinding arena for 2400+ rating, while my friend comes and swipes his credit card and gets the same achievements I do, the same rating I do, same titles, mounts, and practically the same outcome with little to no effort.
    I hear you, and I think you're 100% entitled to not feel happy about it. That being said, I would suggest that how it affects you is really up to you and the attitude you choose to take.

    I mean, let me ask you this: How would you feel about coming late to the party, pulling out your credit card, and effectively paying someone else to carry you to CE, mythic gear and 2400+ rating? If that were me, I think I'd feel pretty hollow about it (and I'll be honest here: I am not above spending gold to pay people to help me get collectibles like mounts with a limited time availability - eg the Nya'Lotha HC mount, if the alternative is losing out on it forever - but it's out of a sense of not wanting to have that forever empty spot in my collection rather than feeling like I have actually achieved anything or "won". Also, if I pay for the boost with gold I made in game then I'd still feel like I at least earned it, even if by an alternative method).

    Something that I'd feel far more concerned about was if paying money was basically required to be able to get those things. I'd be concerned if being in the 95th percentile in terms of effort and skill couldn't even put me in the 50th percentile of achievement.

    Honestly, there is no rational reason to feel upset the situation. You know, and he knows, that he didn't earn those things while you did. The fact that he has those titles and other things is pretty much meaningless outside of his desire to have them for the sake of having them. They don't detract from what you have. And yes I know that a lot of people argue that if you can buy CE with gold that it devalues the achievement.

    But, again, let me ask you this: If Jeff Bezos decided to put together a football team and then paid the 10 best players in the world to play with him to try and win a league, and they ended up winning, would anyone out there think of Bezos as a brilliant footballer the likes of Messi and Ronaldo? Of course not. Everyone would know that he bought his way into the team with money. Everyone would also know that the real players in the team earned the win through their own brilliance.

    I see buying your way into a boost in WoW in much the same way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer Morningstar View Post
    AND Blizzard is OK with that.
    But that doesn't mean that Blizzard are wrong to be OK with it or that the game is worse off for it.

    I would argue that one of the biggest problems in these threads is that people are far too fixated on the issue of a small number of players using $$ to buy gold to buy boosts, while completely ignoring the bigger picture. The reality is this:

    • Most players who get those things don't do it through boosting
    • Most of those players who do get boosted don't do it with token gold
    • Most players who buy tokens with $$ don't use the gold for getting boosted
    • and lastly, even without tokens, players would still end up paying IRL $$ to buy boosts

    I mean even in your own anecdote you're fixating on one person who bought his way to those things, while you're forgetting about the 20+ in your guild who got it legitimately.

    So really, people are arguing against tokens for only one small aspect about them, an aspect that wouldn't even disappear from the game even if tokens didn't exist (it would simply be pushed underground, and result in more gold seller activity which is much more harmful to the game).

    I would argue that if you look at tokens holistically they are actually pretty good for the game:

    • let's face, some people will always want to buy gold. At least with tokens it massively reduces scams
    • People who buy tokens with their gold (for free game time/Blizzard balance) get to benefit from it. This likely results in more people playing the game for whom the financial cost might be a deterrent.
    • People who just cba to do what is needed to get gold in the game, but like to play other aspects of the game, have a means for greater enjoyment.

    And for the vast majority of the players who simply don't even get involved with tokens, either as sellers or buyers of gold, there is pretty much zero affect.

    So while it might be tempting to blame tokens for this one small thing, I think that blame is misplaced.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-10-28 at 09:24 AM.

  10. #1430
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Honestly I think you are making this up. I believe that when I can read or watch about this story from a third party source. This would definitely be such a juicy bit - no youtuber or game magazine would pass it up.

    But if you are not making it up, tell me how much a carry to a 2400+ rating costs and also how many hours it takes? Isn't rating decaying and you just need to stay at it every week? That will be a lot of swiping and your friend will certainly also have to have some kind of skill and time investment - unless he just passes his account over to a guy to play his toons (something Blizzard is definitely not OK with)

    And while you are at it, tell me how many mythic carries it takes to get all that gear, all those achievements and also the time.

    This certainly is NOT little time ...hell...even the money on your friends credit card needed to be earned somewhere.

    Takes a single day to go from 0-2400 in 3v3, and you can practically be AFK, or asked to just CC. Rating does not "decay" you just need to do 1 win each week which just costs 60k or 100k gold and you get the weekly chest from capping 2s or whatever even at low rating. All you need to do is do 1 win at the highest rating you got, and get the rest of the conquest whatever way you want.
    Costs 7m gold or 30-35 tokens or 700 euros.

    A full mythic gear with people trading you loot takes you 2-3 runs, maaaybe more if you really need it after that. I never said he got full bis mythic geared, I said he got mythic gear.
    This cost his 10m gold, 45-50 tokens, or 1000 euros. He still got out of it with 478+ ilvl 481 in bags.

    Regardless, I attached all these prices taken directly from the discords he dealt with. Check it out for yourself.


    https://imgur.com/a/f6GIs4s



    I fully understand your point though. Yes it existed since 2005, sure. However, it was never to this extent. Gold was something earned and not just bought.

    Trade chat has become a boost infested bot fest purely because of EVERYONE having access to simply purchase a token/s. Before Blizzard implemented tokens (which I do think is a good thing), people were afraid to buy gold from 3rd party because there was a risk of them getting banned, which meant A LOT less people bought boosts and risked it.

    I understand the need for tokens, I understand why Blizzard wanted to funnel the money that went to gold (and save people from getting scammed), and I understand why it will never go away.

    I'm just sad that the game I've invested so much time and effort in for the past 15 years has come to the state it is in now.
    Last edited by Lucifer Morningstar; 2020-10-29 at 06:33 PM.

  11. #1431

    reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer Morningstar View Post
    Takes a single day to go from 0-2400 in 3v3, and you can practically be AFK, or asked to just CC. Rating does not "decay" you just need to do 1 win each week which just costs 60k or 100k gold and you get the weekly chest from capping 2s or whatever even at low rating. All you need to do is do 1 win at the highest rating you got, and get the rest of the conquest whatever way you want.
    Costs 7m gold or 30-35 tokens or 700 euros.

    A full mythic gear with people trading you loot takes you 2-3 runs, maaaybe more if you really need it after that. I never said he got full bis mythic geared, I said he got mythic gear.
    This cost his 10m gold, 45-50 tokens, or 1000 euros. He still got out of it with 478+ ilvl 481 in bags.

    Regardless, I attached all these prices taken directly from the discords he dealt with. Check it out for yourself.






    I fully understand your point though. Yes it existed since 2005, sure. However, it was never to this extent. Gold was something earned and not just bought.

    Trade chat has become a boost infested bot fest purely because of EVERYONE having access to simply purchase a token/s. Before Blizzard implemented tokens (which I do think is a good thing), people were afraid to buy gold from 3rd party because there was a risk of them getting banned, which meant A LOT less people bought boosts and risked it.

    I understand the need for tokens, I understand why Blizzard wanted to funnel the money that went to gold (and save people from getting scammed), and I understand why it will never go away.

    I'm just sad that the game I've invested so much time and effort in for the past 15 years has come to the state it is in now.
    Well if someone is really going to pay 700-900 euros to get geared its really sad lol. I think most people that do that are farmers. I have a bunch of friends that only make gold and use that to get gear instead of raiding. So I don't really see that as pay to win. Imagine paying 700 euros every patch ... lol.

  12. #1432
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer Morningstar View Post

    I fully understand your point though. Yes it existed since 2005, sure. However, it was never to this extent. Gold was something earned and not just bought.
    All the botted hunters in azshara since vanilla beg to differ.

    I don't think boosting itself is more prevalent, but the advertisements for these services have become more irritating and intrusive.

  13. #1433
    Imagine paying 700-800 euros for current gear (every major patch) like its so expansive in real money. People that buy those crazy expansive items in the AH are often guilds or gold farmers / ah players. I honestly don't think that is considered p2w just because its not accessible to the majority of players. Only rich people will buy that kind of carry.

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