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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It's okay, I'm bored right now anyway.
    Your tolerance for stupid is enviable.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Except it hasn't spiked token trading. Just as the AH mount didn't spike token trading. Better check for the boogeyman under your bed next.

    https://wowtoken.info/
    I'd be more inclined to gracefully admit I was wrong about this without the spiteful "check the boogeyman" comment. So instead, how about you piss off?

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Your tolerance for stupid is enviable.
    It's a good skill to have in life. No need to stress over something like that.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    For me Twilight Devastation is much much better than any other corruption (also per 1 corruption) in M+. The difference between having that corruption or not, is huge. I need that corruption to be really competitive in high keys, and it can potentially take me a long time to get it.
    i play frost dk, so for me twilight devastation is the strongest corruption there is, by a huge margin
    yet not when you compare it to 3-4 WORSE corruptions i have on other items

    sure, it can be different for other classes, i dont know what you play but i seriously doubt that one devastation is so much stronger than multiple different corruptions that would make you unable to compete...

  5. #345
    I imagine it is. Just look at the race for world first. Competitors have people transferring to every server to buy every BoE and all materials they need to craft items. Sure, it's hidden behind a mask of "gold debt" but what's really the difference between gold and dollars anymore. The "gold debt" is paid for by selling runs again for "gold" to keep it legit in the eyes of Blizzard (aka they get a cut). But within all that web dollars are being turned into gold and real world services that in turn have a real monetary value. Not to say this is illegal or against the ToS as its being done (as long as dollars are laundered though gold so Blizzard gets it's cut) but it does mean dollars though gold have a big impact on who "wins" thus paying to win is just a reality of today's game. People will use the "things like this always happened" line to skirt around the truth but all that means is this problem is older and longer lasting rather than none existing.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i play frost dk, so for me twilight devastation is the strongest corruption there is, by a huge margin
    yet not when you compare it to 3-4 WORSE corruptions i have on other items.
    For me it is. I get a much higher dps per corruption ratio with Twilight Devastation.

    So having 75 corruption of Twilight Devastation will give me a MUCH higher performance than having 75 corruption of anything else.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    For me it is. I get a much higher dps per corruption ratio with Twilight Devastation.

    So having 75 corruption of Twilight Devastation will give me a MUCH higher performance than having 75 corruption of anything else.
    what class and spec do you play?

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    what class and spec do you play?
    Outlaw for M+.

    So my best "bang for the bucks" (dps per corruption) corruption is actually getting the weapon Ra-den, but besides that it is by far Twilight Devastation.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'd be more inclined to gracefully admit I was wrong about this without the spiteful "check the boogeyman" comment. So instead, how about you piss off?
    I get that you're feeling hurt right now due to being sassed, but the trouble is, he's right.

    Token sales haven't spiked. If anything, they've slightly declined. That means claims of P2W are simply bollocks, unless we're counting legitimately-earned in-game gold as "P2W" (which I guess you could but boy is that a stretch). Sure, vast amounts of gold are being thrown around, but it's gold these guilds have due to being obscenely rich. Basically this thread endeth here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    I imagine it is. Just look at the race for world first. Competitors have people transferring to every server to buy every BoE and all materials they need to craft items. Sure, it's hidden behind a mask of "gold debt" but what's really the difference between gold and dollars anymore. The "gold debt" is paid for by selling runs again for "gold" to keep it legit in the eyes of Blizzard (aka they get a cut). But within all that web dollars are being turned into gold and real world services that in turn have a real monetary value. Not to say this is illegal or against the ToS as its being done (as long as dollars are laundered though gold so Blizzard gets it's cut) but it does mean dollars though gold have a big impact on who "wins" thus paying to win is just a reality of today's game. People will use the "things like this always happened" line to skirt around the truth but all that means is this problem is older and longer lasting rather than none existing.
    I get what you're saying re: services, but your claims like "what is the difference between gold and dollars" are totally destroyed by the lack of activity on the token market. You can claim "Well it's P2W because people are buying transfers!", but not gold. Token buying, if anything, is declining slightly.

    So all you really have is the transfers. Which really have been happening since there were server transfers. I mean, god, dude, back in Vanilla, our guild made some sacrifices to allow one of our Paladins to be the first Paladin on the server with full T2, he was cheered and paraded around for a bit and so on, and then about two days later he server transferred (IIRC), renamed himself, and sold the character to some raiding guild on another server. So any claim that WoW has "become P2W", which is SPECIFICALLY THE CLAIM THIS THREAD MAKES lol - it is called "WOW - Now Pay 2 Win?" is false. The premise of this thread is false.

    Your claim is a more viable one - MMOs, since the beginning, genuinely since the beginning, have been P2W if we look at server transfers, account purchases, and so on. I mean, god, back in Dark Age of Camelot I paid real money for a dude's account because it had an RR7 Minstrel on it, so I could just jump into RvR on another server. That was like, 2003. WoW wasn't even out. But it's an entirely different claim to this thread's claim.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-02-25 at 11:43 AM.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Outlaw for M+.

    So my best "bang for the bucks" (dps per corruption) corruption is actually getting the weapon Ra-den, but besides that it is by far Twilight Devastation.
    i dont really play outlaw that much, so my knowledge is not the best, but on raider.io in top10 outlaw rogues there are two without devast, one of them without the lash too... so you CAN be competitive without it, although i admit it seems for outlaw its pretty badly balanced...

    anyhow, it whole seems more like corruption balance issue than p2w, although i admit BOEs might be more meaningfull to different classes

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    i dont really play outlaw that much, so my knowledge is not the best, but on raider.io in top10 outlaw rogues there are two without devast, one of them without the lash too... so you CAN be competitive without it, although i admit it seems for outlaw its pretty badly balanced...

    anyhow, it whole seems more like corruption balance issue than p2w, although i admit BOEs might be more meaningfull to different classes
    But I could define getting Twilight Devastation as an "unreasonable time consumption" due to the high amount of RNG and then I could go buy it on the Auction House for real life money. That's possible in WoW.

  12. #352
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    P2W is quite literally Items/power in game that can only be purchased through Real-money. Nothing in WoW is Pay2Win. Everything can be received through gameplay. It's not even close to pay2win.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But I could define getting Twilight Devastation as an "unreasonable time consumption" due to the high amount of RNG and then I could go buy it on the Auction House for real life money. That's possible in WoW.
    yes, BUT you can get different corruptions easier...
    would you be a bit weaker? yes
    would you be able to compete? yes

    i think the problem of your (and many others) point of view is "BEST or nothing", which i simply cant get behind as i play icecap build frost DK even though breath should be some 10% stronger with appropriate gear

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or you could just not drop extremely powerful BOE items into a market that's known to be heavily driven by the gold token. :/
    It isn't? The top guilds owing gold is not due to tokens, but by lending from players that have a lot. People were dropping ridiculous prices for BoEs before corruption and they will continue to do so after.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I get that you're feeling hurt right now due to being sassed, but the trouble is, he's right.

    Token sales haven't spiked. If anything, they've slightly declined. That means claims of P2W are simply bollocks, unless we're counting legitimately-earned in-game gold as "P2W" (which I guess you could but boy is that a stretch). Sure, vast amounts of gold are being thrown around, but it's gold these guilds have due to being obscenely rich. Basically this thread endeth here.



    I get what you're saying re: services, but your claims like "what is the difference between gold and dollars" are totally destroyed by the lack of activity on the token market. You can claim "Well it's P2W because people are buying transfers!", but not gold. Token buying, if anything, is declining slightly.

    So all you really have is the transfers. Which really have been happening since there were server transfers. I mean, god, dude, back in Vanilla, our guild made some sacrifices to allow one of our Paladins to be the first Paladin on the server with full T2, he was cheered and paraded around for a bit and so on, and then about two days later he server transferred (IIRC), renamed himself, and sold the character to some raiding guild on another server. So any claim that WoW has "become P2W", which is SPECIFICALLY THE CLAIM THIS THREAD MAKES lol - it is called "WOW - Now Pay 2 Win?" is false. The premise of this thread is false.

    Your claim is a more viable one - MMOs, since the beginning, genuinely since the beginning, have been P2W if we look at server transfers, account purchases, and so on. I mean, god, back in Dark Age of Camelot I paid real money for a dude's account because it had an RR7 Minstrel on it, so I could just jump into RvR on another server. That was like, 2003. WoW wasn't even out. But it's an entirely different claim to this thread's claim.
    I mean does Blizzard release info on token market? Does the token market now not mean token bought gold from the past is in play? I am not saying other wise. But I am saying for someone slinging "facts" that odds are you are tossing 3rd party guesses and lack of depth. Also overall token sells could mean a lot of things. If you had 4 million players 2 patches ago and now you have 2 million the fact they stay the same or only slightly drop means those that are left have always been the heavy token purchasers for example. I cannot prove it, so I will not include it in my case, but it goes to show that you cannot just blindly throw out a figure likely guessed upon by a third party (possibly inaccurate) and use it a baseline in a game most people believe (again, a 3rd party guess thats possibly inaccuate) is in population decline. A pretty big one at that.

  16. #356
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    wow is p2w yes, but not to the highest peek
    to be the highest peek u need to play
    to be just better than most players, u can use ur $$$
    p2w means money give u advantage in game over other players, yes gold give u advantage in wow, heck i don't remember see gold sell boosts pre-Legion era as now, since i was in one of most hardcore raiding guilds horde side during wrath, i can talk easily with confidence there was no gold sell boosts, because gold was useless for raiders in general, u just need enough cash for repairs and done, any extra gold means nothing
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    You could always buy BOEs for money, so either wow has always been p2w or never.
    pre-token era u couldn't buy it with ur real money, until WoD no matter how 'rich' u are irl, u have zero advantage over me
    now u can easily spend cash, get boost, and be better than ppl who play 24/7 but have bad luck in drops or just better than average wow player since average wow player don't have time to farm as hard as gold buy u

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    P2W is quite literally Items/power in game that can only be purchased through Real-money. Nothing in WoW is Pay2Win. Everything can be received through gameplay. It's not even close to pay2win.
    so what u call spend real money to buy tokens, get gold, use gold for boost ? pay to dance on a mailbox ?
    pay to win is any form of paying to get an advantage over other player, even if that form isn't the absolute best
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    P2W is quite literally Items/power in game that can only be purchased through Real-money. Nothing in WoW is Pay2Win. Everything can be received through gameplay. It's not even close to pay2win.
    Yeah, if I spend days / weeks / months for farming the gold or press a button on my paypal, buying a time shortcut is p2w, next.
    You pay to save time, that's an inherently p2w concept

  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Your tolerance for stupid is enviable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It's a good skill to have in life. No need to stress over something like that.
    I think I deserve a medal at this point...

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    wow is p2w yes, but not to the highest peek
    to be the highest peek u need to play
    to be just better than most players, u can use ur $$$
    p2w means money give u advantage in game over other players, yes gold give u advantage in wow, heck i don't remember see gold sell boosts pre-Legion era as now, since i was in one of most hardcore raiding guilds horde side during wrath, i can talk easily with confidence there was no gold sell boosts, because gold was useless for raiders in general, u just need enough cash for repairs and done, any extra gold means nothing

    pre-token era u couldn't buy it with ur real money, until WoD no matter how 'rich' u are irl, u have zero advantage over me
    now u can easily spend cash, get boost, and be better than ppl who play 24/7 but have bad luck in drops or just better than average wow player since average wow player don't have time to farm as hard as gold buy u

    - - - Updated - - -


    so what u call spend real money to buy tokens, get gold, use gold for boost ? pay to dance on a mailbox ?
    pay to win is any form of paying to get an advantage over other player, even if that form isn't the absolute best
    You must have played on an extremely low pop server in wrath because there were definitely boost sold. We did them weekly in 10 and 25 man ICC. We sold everything from mount runs to gear runs. We sold to 3 gms at the time weekly getting them the achievement mounts and gear. Even in BC you could buy KJ and illidan runs for gear.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yes, BUT you can get different corruptions easier...
    would you be a bit weaker? yes
    would you be able to compete? yes

    i think the problem of your (and many others) point of view is "BEST or nothing", which i simply cant get behind as i play icecap build frost DK even though breath should be some 10% stronger with appropriate gear
    I guess mindset plays a role.

    In my world the impact of having Twilight Devastation is something I cant ignore. Twilight Devastation can alone add 10k-15k dps to your overall M+ dps (without having to do anything) compared to other corruptions and therefore I would say that players without it are a lot weaker. Sure I can do high keys without it, but to be "fair"... I NEED IT

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I think I deserve a medal at this point...
    You do you mate.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-02-25 at 12:32 PM.

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