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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    10 to 14% in higher end content is your class working or not. I don't really see why you feel compelled to defend this practice.
    To defend what that BoE's have always been able to be bought with real money since tokens have been introduced? Because that is all I've been commenting on. You are the one who keeps trying to distract by making it about the balance of corruption. No class is broken from not having corruption.

    Also lets see the math and sims that says you can not finish this tier with out perfect corruption rolls?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    To defend what that BoE's have always been able to be bought with real money since tokens have been introduced? Because that is all I've been commenting on. You are the one who keeps trying to distract by making it about the balance of corruption. No class is broken from not having corruption.

    Also lets see the math and sims that says you can not finish this tier with out perfect corruption rolls?
    I am pointing out the difference in how powerful these items are compared to their predecessors.

    Rather then do the math can I not simply point to how no guild in existence has cleared the tier without these items?

    This isn't the same old same old these items actively break the game.

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I am pointing out the difference in how powerful these items are compared to their predecessors. Rather then do the math can I not simply point to how no guild in existence has cleared the tier without these items? This isn't the same old same old these items actively break the game.
    By why does the power make a difference for "pay to win"? Just because no guild has done it yet does not mean it is impossible to do. Using your logic the boss was impossible to kill up until the world first kill. Then with nothing changing the impossible magically became possible. Majority of the game will never even clear Mythic when current content. That doesn't mean it is "impossible".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Eve comes to mind. It is good? Well, it is still around so it must be making money. But it does not seem to have been the same level of success as WoW in terms of players and revenue.
    Hmm....EVE is good in that it provides a particular niche kind of game. And it's good mainly because of the player community and the unique nature of the game. The actual mechanics of the game are.....complex. But I don't know if I'd call it good. I'd say that Elite Dangerous is probably a more enjoyable game to play, mechanically speaking. There's a reason EVE has the nickname "Spreadsheet the MMO".

    But one thing I don't know that I've ever heard EVE get a reputation for is exploiting it's playerbase. I haven't done a lot of research into it, to be honest. I know they have a cosmetic cash shop, though. both for ships and characters. And the PLEX is the inspiration for the WoW token. However, the PLEX is fully integrated into the game's economy. Everything is made by players. Real world studies use EVE as a model for economics. Unlike wow which doesn't have anywhere near that kind of complete economic system with gold.

    I would be interested to hear the opinion of a real economist who's played and studied both games.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I don't agree with your point of view. They are - in fact - working for it; they're spending time to form a group that fullfils their requirements and they're actually clearing the content. Merely because they don't comply to your definition of "working for it", doesn't make their approach invalid.
    Paying for a boost, paying for carries, paying for gold. All with a credit card. They're not actually playing the game in any recognizable fashion. What is the point of playing a game if all you're actually doing is just throwing your real world credit card at it? That's not playing. That's spending. The context of the game is almost entirely being ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Again, you're worrying too much about how others play the game and your projecting your view of how the game "should be played" onto others. If you want to play a game in particular way, gopher it. Just don't attempt to force others into the same route.
    The problem with that is that in a community based game like wow(which is what it is, regardless of the ability to play solo), the actions of other players DOES effect individuals. The desires of others(personal loot is a perfect example of this, regardless of the outcome) WILL influence how you play the game.

    The point you're making about not being concerned with how other people play the game is only valid if a player LITERALLY never engages with any of the multiplayer aspects of the game. NEver uses LFR. Never uses the AH. Never uses matchmaking. Never encounters someone else farming. There are people who do that, and more power to them. But they are not the target of this discussion, nor do they particularly have any influence, or stake in the game or discussion either. I'd guess that there are not actually that many people even attempting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I disagree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls would be the exact same game to me, if there'd been an easy mode for it;.
    That's like a flat earther claiming that the world would be the same "to me". You can have whatever personal subjective opinion you like. You can claim the sky is a psychedelic mix of different colored eyeballs and tentacles. That doesn't change what the sky actually is. Dark Souls is a phenomenon in the gaming world. It is so because of the effects of it's difficulty on the gaming community, and the experiences of those players. That is an effect that would NOT be the same if it had an EZ mode. That isn't a subjective opinion of mine. That's fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Why are you assuming Blizzard or any other developer, wants to creat a product that appeals to everyone?
    Blizzard has very specifically gone out of their way to make WoW accessible to as broad of a player as possible. But that wasn't the point I was making. I was making a conditional statement. If you try to make a product that appeals to everyone, then your product will likely fail to appeal to anyone. That's the extreme that it appears Blizzard is aiming at in order to cast a more broad net while fishing for addicts and whales.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I think you're being overly dramatic again; most people don't buy 500 euro worth of gold, for a few auction house pieces of loot.
    Most people don't have to! That's not how the business model or tactic works. You only need a small proportion of whales to normal players, and maybe a handful of super-whales, in order to be profitable.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-03-03 at 12:09 AM.

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Xauro View Post
    One item that does a large amount of your total damage. That you could buy as an BOE for real life money. Is that not pay to win DPS meter? I spent 100+ hours and havent gotten a good corrupt. Someone could just buy this BOE and beat me on dps so easy....and this is not pay to win? Ok then!
    If getting smashed on the meters cause your bad is pay2win then it's always been that way for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    You couldn't LEGALLY buy gold. You always ran the risk of losing your entire account.

    Stop spouting bullshit.


    The game is the very definition of pay to win now.

    You can buy Mythic boss mounts now with real money. Mounts less than 5% of the playerbase used to have.
    Just because a method of buying gold doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean it didn't exist. If buying gold is pay 2 win then it doesn't matter what the method is no matter how risky.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  6. #786
    anyway
    until blizzard directly sells gear/power, it's not p2w

    ya? ya.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    he thing is that you find shit if you look for shit and you can find good stuff if you look for it..
    I guess I look at it this way: If you see a storm coming(figuratively or literally), do you look our your window and say "Well it's not effecting me!" and don't prepare?

    There is an ever increasing trend of game companies to lean towards exploitative business models, much more prevalent in the mobile market, but gaining ground in the PC and console market as well. The gaming industry surpassed both the movie and music industry as far as revenue.

    So when I see more and more of these kinds of trends of using shady tactics, psychological manipulation, and consumer unfriendly practices, I don't just ignore it and say "well I just don't play that way". It's especially dangerous to take that mindset when all it takes is something like 1 out of every 10 players to be a whale for those kinds of business models to work. You have game companies like EA who literally fight entire countries' laws about gambling in order to pursue predatory designs in their games. You have companies like ATVI willing to alter the appearance, design, and the policies of their games and business in order to appease oppressive countries like China.

    I'm sorry, but it's not enough to just say "It doesn't effect me", because mostly is eventually WILL.

    I completely understand that for a lot of people games represent an escape. It's entertainment, and it's VERY uncomfortable to confront these kinds of concepts. I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to deal with that in their fun. But that doesn't change the reality of where the gaming industry is heading. Not looking at a problem won't make it go away.

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Rather blizzard said it was illegal or not doesn’t really matter when thousands if not millions got away with it any way. You have always been able to spend real money for power in wow the sites to do so are still around today.
    True, but how many of those sad people got their accounts hacked after they bought gold? Also, I doubt the gold-buying trend was as popular as you say it was, else there would have been no need for the kind of aggressive marketing strategies the gold farmers utilized. No need to whisper bomb every player you can find when a full 20% of the player base is a customer.

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    By why does the power make a difference for "pay to win"? Just because no guild has done it yet does not mean it is impossible to do. Using your logic the boss was impossible to kill up until the world first kill. Then with nothing changing the impossible magically became possible. Majority of the game will never even clear Mythic when current content. That doesn't mean it is "impossible".
    I am just going to assume your arguing to argue.

    I made my case. If you can buy 20% of your characters output from the ah with items that are flat out better then anything else that can drop in the game ( barring massive rng in your favor) and those items are what make harder content possible as the logs show. I am going to assume it's either terrible balancing or a push for pay to win.

    Right now as the game stands you can have better output then most mythic players by simply dropping cash and buying items off the ah. The use of a middle man though the token system doesn't really change that fact.

  10. #790
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    If you can buy 20% of your characters output from the ah with items that are flat out better then anything else that can drop in the game ( barring massive rng in your favor) and those items are what make harder content possible as the logs show. I am going to assume it's either terrible balancing or a push for pay to win. Right now as the game stands you can have better output then most mythic players by simply dropping cash and buying items off the ah. The use of a middle man though the token system doesn't really change that fact.
    All upgrades make harder content possible. Those specific things are not required for that harder content though and logs do not prove that they are. Merely that guilds can use that power to prop themselves up. You have yet to provide any proof that it is impossible to do with out. Of course you are going to claim I'm arguing to argue because you have no proof so you need to dismiss and discredit what I'm saying.

    If you can have better output then most mythic raiders then why haven't those mythic raiders bought the same items? You could always buy your way to more power since tokens existed because BoE's have not been changed. You could buy your way to more power then most mythic raiders if you bought all BoE's within the first week of a raiding opening. That is just the nature of Bind on Equip. Yet here you are yelling about water being wet.

    It doesn't matter if the power is 1% or 90%. What matters is that is how it has always been because that is exactly what Bind on Equip items are for. For people to buy their power. With gold. With Tokens. With Cash (third party). Or some other trade/barter.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #791
    I don't think there is ingame system developed by blizzard to kill you whole raids and get the best PVP rewards for gold or real money.

    So no. Its not pay to win.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Do you find it odd how you say it's pointless then immediately provide an example were it isn't?
    I never said any such thing. But sure go ahead and twist what I did say to suit your narrative.

    What I do find odd is your need to resort to dishonesty in such a discussion....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?
    What should decide if you can be the best or not are traits like
    • effort,
    • skill,
    • commitment,
    • determination,
    • perseverance

    And if there are multiple competitors who are all scoring similar on these measures, it's fine that it can come down to a combination of a bit of luck, or who played better on the day.

    So, to answer your question:

    • Gold is a resource that is acquired in-game. It classifies according to the list above as a perfectly valid factor.
    • "Crazy RNG" tends to balance out when you're talking about a group of 20 people that qualifies according to the list above.
    • Cash isn't a factor as proven by Method and Complexity Limit who spent gold they obtained without using any tokens.


    Clearly the amount of effort that world first contenders are required to put in if they want to win is massive. And yes, clearly, acquiring a massive amount of goal is a significant part of that effort.

    The Nya'lotha world first race was absolutely a case of a guild winning on the basis effort and commitment. It had nothing to do with "luck" and nothing to do with buying any kind of advantage from Blizzard.

    Now maybe you'd like to argue that the game should provide different avenues for such guilds to expend effort on, but I would counter that the real issue here is simply that the competition has escalated to the point where those top guilds have basically gone outside of the scope of what the game was designed to cater to. Simply put, the crazy shit that happens in the world first race is not a good indicator of whether the game and it's systems are good are not. That should rather be measured on the other 99.998% of the playerbase.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-03-03 at 09:07 AM.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I am just going to assume your arguing to argue.

    I made my case. If you can buy 20% of your characters output from the ah with items that are flat out better then anything else that can drop in the game ( barring massive rng in your favor) and those items are what make harder content possible as the logs show. I am going to assume it's either terrible balancing or a push for pay to win.

    Right now as the game stands you can have better output then most mythic players by simply dropping cash and buying items off the ah. The use of a middle man though the token system doesn't really change that fact.
    So your definition is solely on the power of the items? Then this tier is and was the only that was p2w? Saying "but the items can have a strong effect!" doesn't it more or less p2w (if you think it is p2w at all).
    BoEs have always existed, people always bought gold, but in your vision it is only p2w when blizzard makes a broken mechanic (corruption) that can go onto those BoEs? This selective "it's only if i want it" makes no sense.
    It either was always (or since the introduction of tokens, since buying gold illegal before) or was never p2w. Saying that only a VERY specific proc makes it p2w is just nonsense

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I guess I look at it this way: If you see a storm coming(figuratively or literally), do you look our your window and say "Well it's not effecting me!" and don't prepare?

    There is an ever increasing trend of game companies to lean towards exploitative business models, much more prevalent in the mobile market, but gaining ground in the PC and console market as well. The gaming industry surpassed both the movie and music industry as far as revenue.

    So when I see more and more of these kinds of trends of using shady tactics, psychological manipulation, and consumer unfriendly practices, I don't just ignore it and say "well I just don't play that way". It's especially dangerous to take that mindset when all it takes is something like 1 out of every 10 players to be a whale for those kinds of business models to work. You have game companies like EA who literally fight entire countries' laws about gambling in order to pursue predatory designs in their games. You have companies like ATVI willing to alter the appearance, design, and the policies of their games and business in order to appease oppressive countries like China.

    I'm sorry, but it's not enough to just say "It doesn't effect me", because mostly is eventually WILL.

    I completely understand that for a lot of people games represent an escape. It's entertainment, and it's VERY uncomfortable to confront these kinds of concepts. I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to deal with that in their fun. But that doesn't change the reality of where the gaming industry is heading. Not looking at a problem won't make it go away.
    Seems like the biggest issue is exploitive money schemes while the post I quoted seemed to be more directed towards quality of the games itself in AAA industry. Which is what I was talking about hasn't changed and arguable quality of games goes up if you ask me. Due to new technologies and designers trying to be more innovative or expand on gameplay systems.

    Seems weird to drag in Alien Colonial Marines into economics side of things when the only crime it has was that it was a broken mess with awful promises and same goes for No Man Sky. WoD seems to take the flack for what I assume you mean is the cash shop when it got introduced in MoP, though it was in a pre-patch sort of deal afaik. But why isn't Legion then listed since it has the same cash shop? Is it because the game sucked less? Seems a bit biased to me, which is why the list feels kinda weird due to the fact some are there because they are or were flat out broken but some are there because of mtx and cash shop and seems to be derived through subjective opinion of the actual gameplay itself.

    Being against exploitive models is absolutely fine and it's something I'm with you on, nor did my post even talk about them. I was merely talking about quality and to me it seems like you conflate the two. I understand where you are coming from that some games get hurt by having it but more often than not good games are still good games even if they have awful mtx. So quality is the same, exploitive practices is not.
    Shadow of the tomb raider is an example of a great game to me. Plays well has a nice world and it's just generally fun exploring....but they introduced card packs(or it was rise, same point even then). The game itself is still great... business practice not so much.
    I don't see the "trend" that quality of games gets reduced you talk about, I see a trend of worsening cash shops. However, very few games are unplayable due to a cash shop and often doesn't change the experience of the game. Still shouldn't be there though. Only example lately is Fallout 76, but hey...that's bethesda for you. They've always been releasing turds in terms of quality if you ask me, I agree on that they are going down fast atm, but that's about it.

    I think it's important to separate the two. We are also winning the "war" against it since more and more countries are taking action against lootboxes. I think latest were germany who declared it illegal and now are putting in legislation for it.

    TLDR: MTX has gotten worse, but we are atm winning, will take more time because everything takes time. Quality of games in general has gone up even in AAA industry. 2020 is a good year for gaming from AAA industry if you ask me.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2020-03-03 at 10:45 AM.
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  15. #795
    The game has been pay to win since the introduction of the Token.

    Yes, you can buy BoE directly, although very expensive.

    You can also more commonly buy a "boost with personal traders" for some gold and gear your character up super fast.

    Also, let's not forget about Arena boosts and RBG boosts for gold.

    The token also completely ruined any reason to bother farming gold yourself, and now you can just work 1 hour extra and never have to bother farming a single Mining Node, just buy your raiding consumables and log off. Great way to make your players stop caring about gold, that Token.

  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    The game has been pay to win since the introduction of the Token.

    Yes, you can buy BoE directly, although very expensive.

    You can also more commonly buy a "boost with personal traders" for some gold and gear your character up super fast.

    Also, let's not forget about Arena boosts and RBG boosts for gold.

    The token also completely ruined any reason to bother farming gold yourself, and now you can just work 1 hour extra and never have to bother farming a single Mining Node, just buy your raiding consumables and log off. Great way to make your players stop caring about gold, that Token.
    that's not how the token works. It doesn't magically generates gold. It's an exchange. Player A buys with money but Player B HAS to buy that token with gold so Player A gets the gold while Player B gets the token. So Player B HAS to have made the gold some way or another (raids, farming, auction house, old deposits from the wod mission table, whatever) in order to give A the gold
    If no one farms anymore, it would lose all worth and give like 5k gold or whatever

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    that's not how the token works. It doesn't magically generates gold. It's an exchange. Player A buys with money but Player B HAS to buy that token with gold so Player A gets the gold while Player B gets the token. So Player B HAS to have made the gold some way or another (raids, farming, auction house, old deposits from the wod mission table, whatever) in order to give A the gold
    If no one farms anymore, it would lose all worth and give like 5k gold or whatever
    I know that it works like that. And I also know some really poor countries can make enough to pay for their subs and sell tokens for blizzard balance. But for many people with a disposable income, you either work 1 extra hour at work or you spend hundreds of hours for the same amount of gold.

  18. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Do you find it odd how you say it's pointless then immediately provide an example were it isn't?

    Why should millions of gold,crazy rng, or cash decide if you can be the best or not?
    Just a food for thought - sometimes difference between 1 percentile log and 2 percentile log is that one guy got a slightly higher roll on crits, or had cloak main stat buff up during cooldowns, and the other guy didn't. Crazy rng is always a factor when you are talking about being "the best", but actual "the best" players dedicate unhealthy amount of working time to reduce this rng to minimum (buying BoEs, rolling multiple characters, stockpiling azerite in case of nerfs, stockpiling corrupted items to juggle them around and find best corruption-per-dps combination, do everything to obtain as many high-end gear pieces as possible)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm with @nocturnus on this. A more difficult experience of the same dungeon or raid doesn't make it a "different" experience, IMO. It's the same dungeon, same aesthetics, same enemies, etc... you just do things a little differently each time you're in there because now the enemies blow up when you kill them, or run away at low health, or have more health, etc...
    A difficult experience requires a different approach, a different approach is a different experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Seems weird to drag in Alien Colonial Marines into economics side of things when the only crime it has was that it was a broken mess with awful promises and same goes for No Man Sky.
    Do you not consider false advertising as an economic issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I understand where you are coming from that some games get hurt by having it but more often than not good games are still good games even if they have awful mtx. So quality is the same, exploitive practices is not.

    However, very few games are unplayable due to a cash shop and often doesn't change the experience of the game.
    A game which has a cash shop will almost inevitably warp the normal progression of the game in order to "Encourage" use of said cash shop. Not always. Nothing is absolute. WoW, for example, has no need to press people towards the cash shop because they can directly manipulate revenue by virtue of timegating(any form of it, not just hard locks)in a subscription-based model. And as much as I like to harp on it, WoW is fairly mild in terms of monetization. I think that's why I fight so hard against it. Because I don't want to see it slip any further down that spectrum.

    Deadspace 3 is a good example. Despite being a single-player game with co-op, it had a MTX model where you could pay real money for extra resources. Resources could be found in game in limited quantities. The rate of finding these resources was, of course, designed in such a way that it was clear they wanted you to use the MTX shop. Players got around it by exploiting a bug.

    Assassin's Creed Odyssey is a more recent example. Again, warping the player experience in order to press people towards the cash shop. Experience gains were reduced to the point where a player without a paid boost would have to complete virtually every activity in the game just to keep up with the level/difficulty curve.

    Both of these were technically high-quality productions. However, the degradation of "Quality", in my view, is to the overall experience, not just the technical aspects. Things like poor launches, pre-order bonuses, and live-service failures add into this.


    As for the "war on MTX", I think there are some battles being won. But the war is still very much up in the air. AAA publishers are just getting more advanced and more clever about how they manipulate players. Activision's infamous patent on matchmaking tech, and EA's patent on "dynamic skill adjustment". These are EXTREMELY powerful, complex, and intelligent tools to manipulate players out of their money.

    EDIT: Upper Echelon Gamers has a couple of informative, and mostly objective overview of these patents, if you're interested:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhlWwJ2B2MA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkiZih-9uH8


    I think a lot of people REALLY badly underestimate just how important this topic is in gaming. This industry is making billions of dollars. High-end publishers are not going to be friendly, fair, reasonable, or moderate about their approach to getting that money. And quite frankly, I find it absolutely disturbing that all it takes is a couple of screenshots, a new game announcement, or a hollow corporate apology to get players to forget this.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-03-03 at 12:33 PM.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by Xauro View Post
    I see 475ilvl items with socket and good corruption for like 2-3 million on the AH. So now ppl buy wow tokens for real life money and then buy this items...

    Is this good gameplay or not? Pay to win?

    Blizzard probly happy about it as they earn more $$$




    EDIT: What i mean by p2w is win the damage meter. More dps make dungeon/raid/pvp easyer. One with buyed BIS for real life money VS one with no corrupt or a bad one. Who would you put your money on? Who would you like to have in your raid/dungeon/arena. Also my english are pretty bad so sorry for not explaining so all understand. I did my best, sorry.


    VERY funny thing is that i asked both if its good gameplay and if its P2W. None/few answer if its good gameplay. All get stuck if its P2W instead. Ppl are funny

    Apparently Preach Gaming have a video about it.

    How many tokens have you bought and sold with real money to purchase something in game?

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