WOW- Now pay to win?

[Bigbazz]

WOW isn't pay to win but it is Pay2SaveTime. Everything can be obtained by an organic means and there's nothing locked behind a cash purchase so yeah p2W doesnt apply at all really. If I want to buy AOTC to get the Nzoth mount or Mythic Jaina rather than return and spend the time finding a guild and progressing through it then I see absolutely no issue there because it can all still be done without spending a penny.

You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again

46 pages of pointless mental gymnastics to philosophise why pay to win isn't pay to win.

Can you buy BIS items from AH? Yes, you can. Can you buy items from websites for real cash like Diablo 2 days? Yes you can. Are world first guilds power buying the best items across multiple realms in order to gain a competitive advantage? Yes they are. Can you buy gold with real cash used to purchase these items from AH? Yes you can and from Blizzard themselves, who profit more when you do.

Yes it's pay to win, if that hurts your feelings you can rationalise or mind bend your way around it to make you feel better but that doesn't change the facts or the perception, either way it's not going to change so play or don't play.

Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.

[Belloc]

You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.

Pay-to-win is when Blizzard directly sells equipment that provides an in-game advantage via stats. All Blizzard is selling is game time, which Blizzard has been selling since day one. The only difference now is that you can trade that game time, in-game, for gold.

Players have always been able to trade game time for gold. I've paid for friend's subs in exchange for gold in the past... I just had to send them money via paypal to do so. The only difference now is that it's easy and safe to trade that game time for gold whereas it used to be risky.

[Baneto]

Just because the easy methods are gone doesn't make it impossible. If somebody applies themselves to playing the AH and/or selling in game services, it is still a goal to be accomplished. It may take a while, but it's more than doable. In some ways it's almost like the original sprint to make 1000 gold for the epic mount in Classic. A long term goal that requires careful planning and dedication.

That is probably true, I will join some guildies in boost-communities in SL likely since I dont enjoy playing the AH.

Just because you are blinded by your hatred for Blizzard and too stubborn to understand doesn't mean any of that mount crap is P2W.

Oh yeah because being any ounce of critical against anything in the game makes you a "hater", right?

Blizzard doesn't sell gold, they sell WoW Tokens. WoW tokens are tradeable game time. The gold used to purchase those tokens already exists in the game as a result of player activity.

Achievements are not a win-condition, no matter what a player's intentions are. WoW is an MMORPG. Gameplay in WoW is either PvE or PvP. Achievements are a byproduct of these systems and would not exist on their own. One does not win at Xbox just because they have the most achievements. One does not win at Playstation just because they have the most trophies. One does not win at WoW just because they've got a nice collection.

Anyone can play the game however they want, but your personal goals are just that: Personal goals. They are not in-game win conditions.

Remember: You can collect all the mounts you want, but you'll never be able to collect as many mounts as someone who has been playing since day one, got the Scarab Lord mount, got the first two Glory mounts, and got any other mounts that were removed from the game... or achievements that were removed from the game... or anything else that was removed from the game. Achievements and collections do not exist on a fair playing field like Raids, Dungeons, and PvP do, nor are they tracked in any official capacity like Raids and PvP are.

PvE and PvP content are the win conditions. End of story. You can play the game however you want and enjoy it that way, but your personal goals are not the game's win conditions.

There's no achievement for having all of the achievements. There's no achievement for having all of the available mounts. You might want to think about why that is.

One last thing to consider: Some players are trolls. They exist to make other players mad. Their sole goal in this game is to piss people off. Are they winning at WoW when they are successful in doing so?

The WoW token is worth a set amount of gold, so sure they sell gold but they call it a token.

What you need to understand is that people have different goals in the game.
What you call winning the game others may not relate to at all.

There isnt any absolutes with that, a win can be whatever you want it to be.

[ymirsson]

YPay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash

But it is.
If you can win without, then paying is just convenience.

[dacoolist]

You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.

Pay To Win by definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

" Pay-to-win[edit]
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise never be able to access said items. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. Market research indicates that pay-to-win mechanics are considered much more acceptable by players in China than in Western countries, possibly because Chinese players are more habituated to recurring costs associated with gaming, such as gaming café fees.[37]

A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is for payments to only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[38] For example, some games, such as Dota 2 and StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty, only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a player who has spent money on the game will still be on the same level as a player who has not. Others suggest finding a balance where a game encourages players to pay for extra content that enhances the game without making the free version feel limited by comparison.[39] This theory is that players who do not pay for items would still increase awareness of it through word of mouth marketing, which ultimately benefits the game indirectly.[37][40]

In response to concerns about players using payments to gain an advantage in the game, titles such as World of Tanks have explicitly committed to not giving paying players any advantages over their non-paying peers, while allowing the users buying the "gold" or "premium" ammo and expendables without paying the real money. However, features affecting gameplay and win rate, such as purchasing a 100% crew training level, a premium account, premium vehicles, and converting experience points to free experience points, remain available for the paying customers only.[41][42]"

TO me, that translates to if someone purchases something with in an in game shop that has a CLEAR advantage over other people that cannot get said item - it's pay to win. In WoW, I have friends who have had 10-20M gold for 5+ years, and they can buy anything and everything they want all because they played WoD with 50 alts and made so much gold they will likely never have to pay for WoW again. Having gold doesn't make you a world first raider it doesn't make you a rank one gladiator - it just makes it so that you can buy SOME things in game to help you - this isn't pay to win it's pay for ease of access

[Lucetia]

Just look at the pricing differences between these two almost identical mounts. One from MoP one from BFA.

There is no reason to put mounts behind these insane prices other than pushing people to buy the wow-token.

Except there are differences between your two pictures.

1. One is that you chose a cheap vendor mount vs a mount that is considered a bit pricier. Instead of Crimson Primal Direhorn the Yak would've been more appropriate to compare. Though really the better comparison is the Lightforged Warframe which actually costs more and was an expansion ago.
2. The 3,000G vendor mount is equivalent to 70,000G mounts now as both types are vendor with reputation mounts
3. This is suppose to account for gold inflation through time. Back in MoP it was a lot harder to harder gold than it is now. For instance, getting 120,000G for the mount took quite some time (most of the expansion for some) while now earning 120,000G will only take you a week to a few months (vs 2-3 years).
4. While this one may or may not hold truth people claim it is to still funnel out WoD Garrison gold which doesn't make sense as we have had plenty of gold sinks since then.

Overall there are still tons of cheap mounts and not every mount you will buy ever. No one is being forced to buy a wow token in order to get mounts. If you do, then that is a decision you made that the amount of time you worked for the token was better spent that way than trying to farm gold and such.

[Belloc]

That is probably true, I will join some guildies in boost-communities in SL likely since I dont enjoy playing the AH.


Oh yeah because being any ounce of critical against anything in the game makes you a "hater", right?


The WoW token is worth a set amount of gold, so sure they sell gold but they call it a token.

What you need to understand is that people have different goals in the game.
What you call winning the game others may not relate to at all.

There isnt any absolutes with that, a win can be whatever you want it to be.

A player's personal goals are not game's win conditions. A troll isn't winning at WoW just because he's pissing players off.

[ymirsson]

Oh yeah because being any ounce of critical against anything in the game makes you a "hater", right?

Just like disagreeing with you makes one a lover, right?

[Baneto]

A player's personal goals are not a game's win conditions. A troll isn't winning at WoW just because he's pissing players off.

Yes it is, to him it is.

Just like disagreeing with you makes one a lover, right?

Your words not mine.

[Belloc]

Yes it is, to him it is.

Then that player needs to learn the difference between a personal goal and a win condition, because they are not the same thing. Players do not determine the game's win conditions -- developers do.

I don't get how this is so hard to understand. Having fun is not a win condition. You don't win at Super Mario Bros just because you're getting infinite lives bouncing on a Koopa in a corner. You don't win at Dark Souls just because you've gained enough souls to max out all of your stats. Those are not win conditions. They are fun (or not) personal goals to achieve, but they are not win conditions.

[Dziubla]

You're missing the point here. I'll quote myself again



Just because you "can" do everything without paying to win, it doesn't mean you can't pay to win. And in the end the "winners" are all paying, a great deal of real money goes into the world first races. Pay 2 win isn't about exclusive power gains from real world cash, it's about the game catering to players who want the "option" to gain through real world cash.

Can you gain a significant competitive advantage if you partake in the "P2W" aspects? Absolutely, and it happens all the time, it's a big part of the competitive side of the game. To say otherwise is to be in denial, mental gymnastics only serve to help you fool yourself on this matter.

While I won't really argue with your arguments, since most of them do make at least some kind of sense, however they also show me that you never played an ACTUAL p2w game. You know, free to play, which earns money by selling power upgrades in the shop, where a player who doesn't spend money is literally incapable of reaching power levels that a paying guy does.

While in WoW you certainly can buy power, however, at least for me, that's kinda irrelevant, since that power is still capped at the same level that a non-paying person can achieve, so...who cares? Plus thanks to the power cap you can't really massively outgear content the way you can in some truly p2w games, so no matter how much money you throw at screen, you still need enough skill to be able to effectively use the "power" you buy, in order to actually "win". So again...the "p2w" aspect of WoW, while it does exist to some extent, is still pretty much irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.

[ymirsson]

Your words not mine.

Just because your love for Blizzard makes you too blind

Come on, don't lie.

[Baneto]

Then that player needs to learn the difference between a personal goal and a win condition, because they are not the same thing. Players do not determine the game's win conditions -- developers do.

Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.

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Come on, don't lie.

Those are my words indeed, and I just call it as I see it after seeing your replies.

[ymirsson]

Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.

And all that gold you are too lazy to farm would have helped you to win in what way esxactly?

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Those are my words indeed, and I just call it as I see it after seeing your replies.

Then why would you say it were my words? Your imagination helping you winning borders on delusional it seems.

[Baneto]

And all that gold you are too lazy to farm would have helped you to win in what way esxactly?

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Then why would you say it were my words? Your imagination helping you winning borders on delusional it seems.

Win the mount away from the vendor and into my collection?

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Then why would you say it were my words? Your imagination helping you winning borders on delusional it seems.

Because I quoted you and they were your words?

[Belloc]

Its a game, you decide whatever a "win" is.

Today I camped a rare with an alliance gnome who kept aoeing the spawnspot. When it spawned I raked it and got the kill - I won.

See how that works? Use your imagination more, it can be a good thing for you.

No, you didn't win. You got the kill and completed your personal objective. That's not a win condition, that's a small personal victory. Good for you! I'm sure that felt great! It sure felt great when I became one of the top 5 prot paladins in the world in the Endless Tank Proving Grounds back in MoP... but that was a personal goal, not a win.

So, yeah, I completely understand what you're saying -- I've achieved plenty of personal goals in WoW, too, and have felt pride at those accomplishments. You, however, are not understanding the difference between a personal goal and a win condition.

Players determine personal goals; developers determine win conditions.

[ymirsson]

Win the mount away from the vendor and into my collection?

Just now you were talking about a rare spawn. Are you following the discussion?

[Baneto]

No, you didn't win. You got the kill and completed your personal objective. That's not a win condition, that's a small personal victory. Good for you! I'm sure that felt great! It sure felt great when I became one of the top 5 prot paladins in the world in the Endless Tank Proving Grounds back in MoP... but that was a personal goal, not a win.

So, yeah, I completely understand what you're saying -- I've achieved plenty of personal goals in WoW. You, however, are not understanding the difference between a personal goal and a win condition. Players determine personal goals, developers determine win conditions.

If I reach a personal goal I define it as a win for me, you can argue semantics all you like but thats my view on it.

Just now you were talking about a rare spawn. Are you following the discussion?

I entered this discussion bringing up the difference of pricing between mounts and how they were related to the WoW-token and p2w.

[ymirsson]

If I reach a personal goal I define it as a win for me, you can argue semantics all you like but thats my view on it.

But that's not the relevant definition for the term "paytowin".

[muten roshi]

Should every mount be a gold-sink? Historically there have been very few of those, now it seems baseline more than "goldsink".

Not every mount is.