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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    What is Shadowlands goldsinks going to cost, baseline 5 million gold?
    single mount (recolor at that) in HUNDREDS of mounts, so even if it was goldcap, who cares?!
    people who have that amount of gold to sink will buy it people who dont want to sink that kind of gold or dont have it wont, and unless its actualy unique model people want to use it will affect NOBODY, just collectors wiling to waste gold will have mount count one up...

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Xauro View Post
    I see 475ilvl items with socket and good corruption for like 2-3 million on the AH. So now ppl buy wow tokens for real life money and then buy this items...

    Is this good gameplay or not? Pay to win?

    Blizzard probly happy about it as they earn more $$$




    EDIT: What i mean by p2w is win the damage meter. More dps make dungeon/raid/pvp easyer. One with buyed BIS for real life money VS one with no corrupt or a bad one. Who would you put your money on? Who would you like to have in your raid/dungeon/arena. Also my english are pretty bad so sorry for not explaining so all understand. I did my best, sorry.


    VERY funny thing is that i asked both if its good gameplay and if its P2W. None/few answer if its good gameplay. All get stuck if its P2W instead. Ppl are funny

    Apparently Preach Gaming have a video about it.
    Using your values here, 3M / 150k (estimated high token cost) = 20x15 (15$ per token) = $300

    If someone wants to spend $300 on 1 item, I say have at it p2w. They are just fueling the devs with cash to create future content for me. With a cost that high, few will be purchasing those items. Whales sure few and far between could afford that for each slot that has a BoE. 90% (obviously I am taking an educated guess, no stats to prove this value) of the player base barely want to spend the $15 a month for the ability to play the game, let alone purchase a single item for $300. I would say more than 90% honestly but for the lack of data, I will guestimate a lower percentage.

  3. #1043
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Your own definition means that, I understand as much.
    I'm sorry, but you're acting very obtuse here. You are attempting to redefine "pay to win" to mean "winning" your own arbitrary goals, rather than "winning" the goals the game have established. That's like saying you can "win" at Super Mario Bros because you decided that to "win" the game, all you have to do is kill the first goomba that shows up. Or saying you can "win" a marathon by establishing your own arbitrary goal that to "win" you just need to be the first to break 50 meters so you go for a full sprint instead of jogging to be the first to reach the 50 meters mark.

    As I said, agree to disagree.
    Saying "agree to disagree" here feels more like a cop-out here because you have been put against the wall for attempting to redefine what the term "pay to win" means to suit your narrative.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-10-12 at 07:54 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm sorry, but you're acting very obtuse here. You are attempting to redefine "pay to win" to mean "winning" your own arbitrary goals, rather than "winning" the goals the game have established. That's like saying you can "win" at Super Mario Bros because you decided that to "win" the game, all you have to do is kill the first goomba that shows up. Or saying you can "win" a marathon by establishing your own arbitrary goal that to "win" you just need to be the first to break 50 meters so you go for a full sprint instead of jogging to be the first to reach the 50 meters mark.
    mario and marathons have very clearly defined win conditions though. something that's nowhere near as clear in wow. some people considering clearing heroic win, some clearing half the mythic raid, some the whole mythic raid, some the mythic raid before anyone else. some wins in wow, like bis gear, are unobtainable so anyone who considers they have won that has set some personal goal. and ofc, the game technically doesn't have a win condition at all. (well i guess you can make a similar argument for mario and marthons actually.)

    though, w/e you set as your win in wow, you can definitely legally pay for 99% of them.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2020-10-12 at 08:04 PM.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Did you perhaps miss world first guilds paying for BoEs with gold bought from tokens in recent tiers? Because that seems to fit your criteria.
    It doesn't, though, because those BoEs were not sold by Blizzard. Those BoEs didn't exist until players entered the content and had them drop. Re-read the post you quoted.
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  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    mario and marathons have very clearly defined win conditions though. something that's nowhere near as clear in wow. some people considering clearing heroic win, some clearing half the mythic raid, some the whole mythic raid, some the mythic raid before anyone else. some wins in wow, like bis gear, are unobtainable so anyone who considers they have won that has set some personal goal. and ofc, the game technically doesn't have a win condition at all. (well i guess you can make a similar argument for mario and marthons actually.)

    though, w/e you set as your win in wow, you can definitely legally pay for 99% of them.
    pay to have someone do it for you, or pay to be able to do it at all?
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  7. #1047
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    mario and marathons have very clearly defined win conditions though.
    So does World of Warcraft. And even so, nothing stops anyone from making their own arbitrary "win conditions" for the Mario game(s) and marathons.

    some people considering clearing heroic win, some clearing half the mythic raid, some the whole mythic raid, some the mythic raid before anyone else. some wins in wow, like bis gear, are unobtainable so anyone who considers they have won that has set some personal goal.
    Most of what you mentioned there are personal arbitrary goals. Only the 'mythic raid' can be considered an end goal for the game for the PvE side.

    though, w/e you set as your win in wow, you can definitely legally pay for 99% of them.
    This is nothing but trying to rationalize a redefinition of the term to mean something other than what it actually means. The term is well defined. Lets try to not change it to suit a narrative.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-10-12 at 09:10 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    In one week of casual play (Classic Dungeons) I have amassed 432k. Up from 122k.

    Its inflation.
    No, you have not manage to receive over 300k of gold in one week of "casual" play and neither doing it through classic dungeons

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by aeuhe4yxzhds View Post
    No, you have not manage to receive over 300k of gold in one week of "casual" play and neither doing it through classic dungeons
    Yes. I have. Run ZF and Ulduman. Transmog literally prints gold. Sorry you can't spend actually 10 minutes of real time farming each a day for free money.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm sorry, but you're acting very obtuse here. You are attempting to redefine "pay to win" to mean "winning" your own arbitrary goals, rather than "winning" the goals the game have established. That's like saying you can "win" at Super Mario Bros because you decided that to "win" the game, all you have to do is kill the first goomba that shows up. Or saying you can "win" a marathon by establishing your own arbitrary goal that to "win" you just need to be the first to break 50 meters so you go for a full sprint instead of jogging to be the first to reach the 50 meters mark.


    Saying "agree to disagree" here feels more like a cop-out here because you have been put against the wall for attempting to redefine what the term "pay to win" means to suit your narrative.
    Almost like you're trying to tell others your way of defining things, isnt it? I think we were done a while ago, you got yours and I got mine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    Yes. I have. Run ZF and Ulduman. Transmog literally prints gold. Sorry you can't spend actually 10 minutes of real time farming each a day for free money.
    I've done that farm and no way in hell it prints you 300k+ gold on my realm at least. Im on one of the highest populated realms EU and I can hardly sell any xmog.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by aeuhe4yxzhds View Post
    No, you have not manage to receive over 300k of gold in one week of "casual" play and neither doing it through classic dungeons
    Technically he could be telling the truth, I'll give you an example:



    If he posted a papal fez for 300k I'd buy that instantly lol. So his statement could be truthful. Now if he said he makes 300k every week I'd have questions lol.
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  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Most of what you mentioned there are personal arbitrary goals. Only the 'mythic raid' can be considered an end goal for the game for the PvE side.
    i've never gotten a "you win" screen when i got cutting edge. so why can THIS be considered the ONLY end goal for not just raiding, but all PvE? seems just as arbitrary. it's not even the hardest thing you can do in raiding, it's just the last thing that gives an achievement.


    This is nothing but trying to rationalize a redefinition of the term to mean something other than what it actually means. The term is well defined. Lets try to not change it to suit a narrative.
    eh i'd say originaly it means paying to be better than others, which you straight up can't do in wow at all and which by and large isn't a lasting business model for games that do.

    You can definitely pay to win the best gear/achievements/pets/titles/etc though, and if you wanna debate about whether you have to go through an intermediary or not, or whether you can techincally grind gold instead of buying it, that just further proofs that "pay to win" is just as well defined as "game of the year", aka barely at all.

    even in mobile games where pay to win is much more acceptable, it's a big sliding scale on what it means.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2020-10-13 at 10:24 AM.

  13. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    And winning means whatever you want it to be, different people different goals.Its an echo-chamber by now, just agree to disagree with the whole pay 2 win since nobody is "right".
    Haha, you don't get off that easily. You're objectively and categorically wrong.

    As I said, repeatedly, the issue isn't how anyone chooses to define "winning". It's entirely about whether you're required to pay in order to do so.

    So you can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think "winning" is - and sure, people can "agree to disagree" on that count - but it's entirely irrelevant to the actual question.

    The point is this: Tokens buy you a small to moderate amount of gold. No one needs to pay cash for gold. Therefore the game is not pay-to-win. Period.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Haha, you don't get off that easily. You're objectively and categorically wrong.

    As I said, repeatedly, the issue isn't how anyone chooses to define "winning". It's entirely about whether you're required to pay in order to do so.

    So you can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think "winning" is - and sure, people can "agree to disagree" on that count - but it's entirely irrelevant to the actual question.

    The point is this: Tokens buy you a small to moderate amount of gold. No one needs to pay cash for gold. Therefore the game is not pay-to-win. Period.
    in relative terms, sure. paying to win in wow is prohibitively expensive so on the whole the game isn't pay to win.

    in absolute terms you can definitely do it though.

    "pay to skip the line" is definitely very common though, no way you can tell me all the M+ boost people sell aren't bought with tokens intead of farming.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2020-10-13 at 10:50 AM.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Haha, you don't get off that easily. You're objectively and categorically wrong.

    As I said, repeatedly, the issue isn't how anyone chooses to define "winning". It's entirely about whether you're required to pay in order to do so.

    So you can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think "winning" is - and sure, people can "agree to disagree" on that count - but it's entirely irrelevant to the actual question.

    The point is this: Tokens buy you a small to moderate amount of gold. No one needs to pay cash for gold. Therefore the game is not pay-to-win. Period.
    Nope, neither of us are either wrong or right.

    Its subjective.

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    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-10-13 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Removed Meme Image

  16. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatie View Post
    I can't post a link due to not really posting but if you google scribe admits rmt ny'alotha you get a Icy-veins link where you see the story and also a link to the tweet of Scripe where he said it.
    Scripe did admit to it after Gallywix went up in flames and a Gallywix council member went on a leaking spree shit came to light the rate was 50 euro to 1mil they did pay 128,473,245 gold so 128x50=6400$ + ofc the advertisment they get from Method saying they got it from them.
    Fair enough, I was unaware of that particular development.

    But if you actually stop and analyze it, even in this case, where a top guild is levering gold to try to gain a competitive advantage, the gold did not come from tokens. It came from other players. Which actually demonstrates, once again, that the game is not pay-to-win.

    You see, pay-to-win is about a transaction between the player and the game - the player pays the game and gets something in return. The phenomenon here is something completely different - it's about co-operation between players. That fact that it's predicated on a real-money transaction is actually entirely irrelevant. If the crew at Gallywix had elected to simply donate that gold to Method, the effect would have been the same.

    And if you think about it further, tokens, by virtue of the way they work, cannot be pay-to-win, because no one is creating gold from money. When you spend $$ on a token, Blizzard don't push a button and generate a bunch of gold. They transact that gold from someone else to you. The gold is all created through people playing the game. Tokens simply facilitate a transaction between two players in a safe and regulated manner.

  17. #1057
    In what game can’t you pay to win if i may ask?
    If wow is p2w what people like to point out.

  18. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Nope, neither of us are either wrong or right.
    Nope, you just fail to understand what I am arguing.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Nope, you just fail to understand what I am arguing.
    I do understand what you're arguing, I just disagree with it.

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    You see, pay-to-win is about a transaction between the player and the game - the player pays the game and gets something in return. The phenomenon here is something completely different - it's about co-operation between players. That fact that it's predicated on a real-money transaction is actually entirely irrelevant. If the crew at Gallywix had elected to simply donate that gold to Method, the effect would have been the same.

    And if you think about it further, tokens, by virtue of the way they work, cannot be pay-to-win, because no one is creating gold from money. When you spend $$ on a token, Blizzard don't push a button and generate a bunch of gold. They transact that gold from someone else to you. The gold is all created through people playing the game. Tokens simply facilitate a transaction between two players in a safe and regulated manner.
    riiiight. so if blizz added a literal i win button to crafting professions, but only let you sell them for real money, that wouldn't be pay to win because a player had to make the i win button?

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