WOW- Now pay to win?

[david0925]

I don't have an opinion on whether WoW is pay to win or not, but I would like to know what people that adamantly defended WoW as not being one, what games they would consider to be pay to win, and why.

I do agree that if your definition of winning is getting Glad, HoF, etc, buying tokens for BoEs isn't really going to get you there, but it definitely alleviates a chunk of the gearing process, especially when it comes to Corruptions.

The first thing that comes to my mind that's commonly perceived as pay to win are trading card games, and even then you can argue that's also just "pay to advance".

[Raelbo]

I don't have an opinion on whether WoW is pay to win or not, but I would like to know what people that adamantly defended WoW as not being one, what games they would consider to be pay to win, and why.

Any game where beating the content in a reasonable/competitive amount of time requires spending cash in order to activate some kind of in-game buff/boost. And where failing to "pay" means suffering a significant penalty/disadvantage compared to those who do pay.

I do agree that if your definition of winning is getting Glad, HoF, etc, buying tokens for BoEs isn't really going to get you there, but it definitely alleviates a chunk of the gearing process, especially when it comes to Corruptions.

Well it can, no question there. But is it mandatory? Does failing to buy gold with tokens make it very difficult to compete with those who do? I would argue not, on the basis that it's perfectly feasible to acquire all the gold you actually need in-game without needing to resort tokens. Tokens are pretty much the resort of people who either suck at making gold, or simply can't be bothered to put in even a low level of effort.

[Stardrift]

Why do you care? It does not affect you. These are...

*Edited because sperg moment*COSMETIC ITEMS THAT HAVE NO EFFECT ON ACTUAL GAME*edited because sperg moment*

Also, one is a reputation reward for Horde only and the other is an outright purchase available to both factions.

You can purchase enough gold to buy ilvl boosting.

The game's indirectly P2W.

[Viikkis]

...but I would like to know what people that adamantly defended WoW as not being one, what games they would consider to be pay to win, and why.

Many mobile games like Hayday, Clash of Clans, Sims freeplay etc. While winning is again subjective those games are really painful and grindy but it all goes away if you flash some Visa.

Basically any game where the longterm gameplay is designed to be extremely frustrating and slow if you don't pay. I don't see this in WoW. The gameplay is totally fine if you never buy a token in your life.

[Raelbo]

You can purchase enough gold to buy ilvl boosting.

The game's indirectly P2W.

P2W would be the game giving you an ilvl boost. As in, pay $$, your gear instantly upgrades.
Indirect P2W would the game gives you gold, you go find a vendor that gives you a gear upgrade in exchange for gold.


Buying a token is getting other players to help you out with the completely mundane and simple task of gathering gold - something that anyone in this game can do without too much effort or ridiculous amounts of time - in exchange for some cash. What you end up doing with the gold is entirely irrelevant and fundamentally no different from spending gold that you earned without resorting to tokens.

Buying a boost is about an exchange between different players and is an intrinsic part of a MMO game. It has nothing to do with P2W.

For tokens to be considered P2W they would have to be most expedient means of obtaining gold, and pretty much every serious player would be required to purchase them in order to be competitive. This is clearly not the case in the game, nor could it be, based on the way in which tokens work.

[Monster Hunter]

I dont think they would invest development time and resources into that.

I stand by my original theory.

its litteraly what they said when they brought out that 9mil spider mount, but OK.

[Alatie]

Fair enough, I was unaware of that particular development.

But if you actually stop and analyze it, even in this case, where a top guild is levering gold to try to gain a competitive advantage, the gold did not come from tokens. It came from other players. Which actually demonstrates, once again, that the game is not pay-to-win.

You see, pay-to-win is about a transaction between the player and the game - the player pays the game and gets something in return. The phenomenon here is something completely different - it's about co-operation between players. That fact that it's predicated on a real-money transaction is actually entirely irrelevant. If the crew at Gallywix had elected to simply donate that gold to Method, the effect would have been the same.

And if you think about it further, tokens, by virtue of the way they work, cannot be pay-to-win, because no one is creating gold from money. When you spend $$ on a token, Blizzard don't push a button and generate a bunch of gold. They transact that gold from someone else to you. The gold is all created through people playing the game. Tokens simply facilitate a transaction between two players in a safe and regulated manner.

People in general refer to p2w as in you can spend real money to get things in game and in wow you can spend 100 euro for about a 1 mill gold, now i dont agree that its p2w as it would have costed you about 700 euro for a bis boe and lets be honest only 1% of the people has that money to spare. In the end Limit who did take a loan of gold won the wf race and then did pay it all back so by that logic it's not p2w sure again your guildie can spend 700 euro get a bis piece and beat you on a meter but i dont call that p2w.

Gallywix on the other hand is a dodgy as hell company as we all knew but could not proof they did rmt for forever the top guys quit the day jobs and just sold gold to russians and made a living off it, it was more a matter of when then if when it comes to them going up in smoke.

And yeah token dont cause a infaltion like wow garrison as the gold comes from other players hands i agree but again people refer to p2w as you spend real money and get in this case gold in return.

[Hellobolis]

Mythic raiding is the pinnacle of difficulty for PvE, and there is the "hall of fame" for the first 100 guilds world-wide to kill the last raid boss in mythic difficulty.

So it's not really arbitrary.

so you only win if you are on the hall of fame? yeah i guess that would be expensive to pay to win even for oil barons.

[Raelbo]

People in general refer to p2w as in you can spend real money to get things in game

No people in general don't. Some people might, but it goes against the generally accepted consensus.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/...ish/pay-to-win

An intrinsic part of p2w is that the advantage you gain via real money is strong enough that it is basically mandatory to spend the money in order to properly play the game. Or, in other words, if you don't pay, you basically cannot win.

Now people have made valid arguments that gold does qualify as something that you pretty much need in order to be competitive. And they have validly asserted that gold can be acquired via $$. But that is not sufficient to demonstrate that it is mandatory to spend money in order to acquire gold. Not only that, but it's patently obvious if you observe what happens in WoW, that it is not mandatory to spend $$ if you want gold. Furthermore, if you consider how WoW tokens work - namely that some other player has to make the gold that buy, it's outright impossible that buying tokens could ever become mandatory.

[Hellobolis]

No people in general don't. Some people might, but it goes against the generally accepted consensus.

everybody calls it that as soon as you can buy non-cosmetics/convenience things. then it becomes "it's pay to win, but here is why it doesn't ruin the game" for the better games.

in wows case it would be "it's pay to win, but it's prohibitively expensive for the really important things and not very impactful for the regular things, so it hasn't ruined the game (yet)."

[Baneto]

It’s clear to me you are oblivious to what p2w means, so theirs no need to discuss this any further. Have a nice day tho.

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Whatever fairy tale suits your purpose friend. If you lack the intellectual capacity to understand what something means, thats fine by me.

Have a good day tho

Its clear to me you're oblivious that its completely subjective what a win is in the game.

And telling me to have a nice day after basically calling me an idiot, real nice of you.

Why do you care? It does not affect you. These are...

COSMETIC ITEMS THAT HAVE NO EFFECT ON ACTUAL GAME PLAY

Also, one is a reputation reward for Horde only and the other is an outright purchase available to both factions.

MAYBE IT AFFECTS ME BECAUSE IM NOT A WOW-BILLIONAIRE AND PREFERRED THE NORMAL PRICES?

I'm sorry, but what's going on here is actually the other way around: you are trying to enforce your arbitrary redefinition of the term to suit your narrative. "Pay-to-win" has never meant what you insist it does.

And again, it's not "my" definition of the term. It's the actual definition of the word.

- - - Updated - - -


Mythic raiding is the pinnacle of difficulty for PvE, and there is the "hall of fame" for the first 100 guilds world-wide to kill the last raid boss in mythic difficulty.

So it's not really arbitrary.

Its okay for you to have your opinion, but just dont try shove it down everybodys throats would ya?

I can't believe 10 pages later and this guy is still arguing that the game is pay to win while changing definitions and moving goalposts just to avoid admitting his take is wrong lol

Im not changing any goalposts or definitions, people are free to have their opinions.
This is getting ridiculous at this point, 20 pages ago I said agree to disagree and people are like the donkey in this family guy skit.

In this situation, you are wrong, as explained multiple times. You trying to say "neither of us are wrong or right" or "agree to disagree" just feels like a desperate attempt from your part to save face.

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Just wanted to point out: gold is not getting me a spot in the Mythic Hall of Fame.

Its quite amusing to see you still believe your opinion is the right one, even when its completely subjectivie and you have been told so several pages now.

Technically speaking there is no actual definition of the term "pay-to-win" since there is no valid authority to define it. There is therefore some level of subjectivity in the definition.

That being said there are broadly accepted definitions. There are also subjective interpretations that make sense and then there are those don't. I would agree with you that @Vidhjerta's definition is neither in alignment with the broadly accepted definitions, nor does it make any real sense on any level. Even accepting that the possibility of multiple correct definitions, his definitely is not one of those.

Broadly accepted by you, not me. I dont give a rats ass if my definitions or opinions are broadly accepted or not.

[ymirsson]

Broadly accepted by you, not me. I dont give a rats ass if my definitions or opinions are broadly accepted or not.

There's a word for that, delusional.

[Halfaheart]

It's okay to just admit you were wrong rather than quote 10 people and say that "your opinion is your opinion". Wow isn't pay to win. Have a nice day =)

[Accendor]

It's okay to just admit you were wrong rather than quote 10 people and say that "your opinion is your opinion". Wow isn't pay to win. Have a nice day =)

I have no idea how you can play the game in 2020 (and 8.3 of all patches!) And unironically claim its not p2w.

[Ielenia]

Its okay for you to have your opinion, but just dont try shove it down everybodys throats would ya?

What you wrote is nothing but projection, since the one doing "shove your opinion down others' throats" here is you, as you try to push your arbitrary definition of "pay-to-win" as something as valid as the actual definition of the term.

[Halfaheart]

I have no idea how you can play the game in 2020 (and 8.3 of all patches!) And unironically claim its not p2w.

Because it isn't. Anything you pay for can be earned organically albeit at a much slower pace. And if you're spending earned gold on gear/carries/whatnot (which has literally been done since the game's inception) then you're just shortcutting the process. If there was a rank of gear above Mythic that was locked behind a paywall then yeah, that's pay to win. Use some logic and you'll find the argument to be silly

[Gerardlin]

I think the same

[ketsui]

I have no idea how you can play the game in 2020 (and 8.3 of all patches!) And unironically claim its not p2w.

Words of an LFR player

[Baneto]

It's okay to just admit you were wrong rather than quote 10 people and say that "your opinion is your opinion". Wow isn't pay to win. Have a nice day =)

But Im right, its only your opinion and I disagree with it - WoW is pay to win.

Have a nice day =)

[Alatie]

No people in general don't. Some people might, but it goes against the generally accepted consensus.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/...ish/pay-to-win

An intrinsic part of p2w is that the advantage you gain via real money is strong enough that it is basically mandatory to spend the money in order to properly play the game. Or, in other words, if you don't pay, you basically cannot win.

Now people have made valid arguments that gold does qualify as something that you pretty much need in order to be competitive. And they have validly asserted that gold can be acquired via $$. But that is not sufficient to demonstrate that it is mandatory to spend money in order to acquire gold. Not only that, but it's patently obvious if you observe what happens in WoW, that it is not mandatory to spend $$ if you want gold. Furthermore, if you consider how WoW tokens work - namely that some other player has to make the gold that buy, it's outright impossible that buying tokens could ever become mandatory.

Right i know i aint saying wow is p2w but people haven taken it upon themself to call every game p2w the moment it has the option to spend money on it.