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  1. #101
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Sadly, they don't. Hence the 1.5 mill active subs.
    Why is it sad that forum opinions have no affect on Blizzard's business decisions? ESPECIALLY since you get zero topics where anyone agrees on anything. My favorite example is the question "flying yes or no" that turned into a 1000 pages forum battle of not ppl being divided in the yes and no groups but also every shade and possibility inbetween from "it should never have been in the game" to "Pathfinder is fine" to "Pathfinder should have ended at part1" to "I want to buy it at the cap" and so on and so on.

    Who would YOU listen to if you designed a game. I bet NOT to EVERYONE on forums, because that is a surefire way to a big mess..

  2. #102
    It's most definitely not dying, the creators of most MMOs are just not developing them well. They either try too hard to emulate WoW (and fall short), or are WoW and are just fucking up royally with bad designs.

    FFXIV is okay and I love the different amount of things to do, but the combat system is horribly flawed and the Dungeons/Raid philosophy feels very outdated. Majority of my last sub on it was spent leveling alt classes by just doing daily Duty Roulettes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    If MMO market is not in decline, where did all the players go from the genre?
    Went to genres that have better developers. WoW's dev team is choosing to be horribly incompetent and not listen to feedback at all, or the higher-ups are forcing them to have such awful designs that, again, do not listen to feedback at all. Whatever the case, this kind of shit doesn't happen to plenty of other companies.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  3. #103
    It's a pretty standard type of response from a business person who has no idea what they're talking about, because they're ultimately assuming it's not possible to deliver the product people want at the price people are willing to pay.

    Then someone comes along and does everything the person who said that garbage line was incapable of doing, and "Oh my god! A sudden, unexpected resurgence!"

    The proper thing to say in most of these cases is "we can't figure out what customers actually want well enough to keep them around or bring in new ones"

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.

    If you think that WoW is in a decline because of some bad game design decisions, then you still believe the game can be turned around with some better game design decisions and not be in a decline anymore.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?

    Pick your battles wisely.
    Okay, so first of all I don't see anything wrong in saying that MMO in general is in decline. Altough I have absolutely no data and statistics to support it, I would guess that's the case. Since WoW's greatness, many new genres have been explored, especially MOBA games which in my opinion are the greatest competitor to MMO.

    MMO games take a lot of day time and I guess stricte PVP games like League of Legends, CS, HotS and and card games are much more rewarding. On top of that, I have seen an article that treated about 'millenials'. One of the points was that young people are much more impatient that previous generations. Most of the playerbase are children and teenagers in fact, so the sense of reward for them needs to be fulfilled as quickly as possible. That's precisely the reason why so many people are against Classic WoW and so much for 'boosts' and faster leveling.

    I truly think that MMO genre is dying slowly.

    On top of that, I wouldn't say that by stating that MMO is in decline, people do not care about WoW whatsoever. If that is a fact, then people just point it out - and I am one of them. I would love to enjoy WoW as I did before, but there are lots of indie games that get popularized immensively nowadays, that it's hard to me not think about WoW as a waste of time.

    Another factor is that people got burnt out. Popularity of WoW is mainly associated with ot being something new. Now, that the 'core playerbase' is no longer intrested in playing this game, there is no chance to continously attract new players. It wouldn't be far-fatched to say, that 'ups' in playerbase, whenever a new expansion/patch is launched, are due to old players returning for a while.

    WoW, apart from it's content quality, is not as much appealing to people as it has been a few years ago.
    Just because 'the market is dying' it doesn't mean they won't invest, since as you have already pointed out - Blizzard is a company - and it's main goal is the profit. As long as there is money in this game, they will invest. None does it just for 'good intentions' really

    That's the reason for so many microtransactions in WoW. They try to diversify the profits. It's nothing wrong in making as much profit from your game as possible. It only becomes a problem when it truly affects the game. By the way, it's also a PR problem.

    So, I would love WoW to become a better game in terms of quality and polishing, but it's hard for me to belive that it would ever happen again. I might be biased though. But for me they simply rehash the same ideas every single expansion since Legion. I don't see any deep development in this game. Nothing is really innovative that much - at least nit as much as I would wish for

  5. #105
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Sadly, they don't. Hence the 1.5 mill active subs.
    oh shit they released their numbers!?
    if you could link those please i would love to see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    As far as I know, none of the big guys have any ongoing projects, and not every person who worked at Blizzard at some point was a genius.
    Yes, a fair few of the big guys worked on this game called.... wildstar.
    A fair few of the old team are still at blizz/work on wow.

    and what is it "not everyone who worked at blizz at some point was a genius" or "The original blizz guys were the best" which is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Mobile gaming isn't really that big of a thing in the West.
    yes it is, it is the biggest market world wide.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    I didn't even get to raids. I got bored around level 30. The game was just MEEEEEEEEEEEH for me.
    so i guess the original blizz devs wernt that great after all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Yeah, current WoW isn't remotely near 12 million subs. They appear to be around 2 million subs (50% due to Classic).
    oh shit did blizz leak their sub numbers? you should link them to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
    What? The market is ABSOLUTELY dead.

    WoW IS essentially the MMO market in North America/Europe. FFXIV exists, but WoW still dominates it in the west.

    A market is an "Area". A gathering of vendors. How many MMO distributors do you see popping up in 2020? ESPECIALLY Western MMO developers? The 2000's saw MMO after MMO launch, and all of them failed when going against WoW.
    this is overly true, and its sad, but game genre's are very specific time wise.
    Everyone remembers the legendary days of platformers right?
    Now adays how many platformers come out that are popular?
    Mario... and...? what else? anything? no, its just mario really.
    Racing games too, Now adays you have mario cart, you have a racing game or 2.
    back in the day of racing games you had like 8 racing games every 6 months. diddy kong, donky kong, mario, sonic, crash bandicoot, need for speed, tokyo drift, etc etc.

    MMO's used to be HUGE, we had tons, maplestory, runescape, star wars galaxy, toontown, wow, everquest, eve, Fallensword, and many other browser based "social mmo"
    Game genre usually are popular based on either
    1. real life effects- for example in the last 10 years people on average have less spare time then normal, people are also more depressed then normal. meanign that games that allow you to be in action constantly, and allow you to just drop in and out, with little grinding, are some of the most popular.

    2. Trends- we get one really big game that lots of people enjoy, and then suddenly for the next few years EVERY company tries to copy that, and players love the original, and they play the copies, but as time goes on it slows down.
    Example, minecraft, when that came out there wasnt really sandbox games like it, then suddenly it was EVERYWHERE it was on the news, it was being shown in classes, everyone knew about it, and for many years after tons of games copied it, and with this gained large following, but as time passed it lowered, minecraft has mostly fallen out of public eye, only recently popping back up again recently with another resurgence. (mostly brought on by pewdiepie) and now adays there is far less games like it being made, people got their fix with minecraft, and so now we no longer have "Another minecraft-like is coming out" every single month.

    i could list tons of more examples why we have these years of "This genre of game is suddenly huge" but could go forever.


    we left the MMO stage awhile back, why no mmo in the past few years has been able to survive. The only ones that are surviving right now are ones that came out MANY years ago, and still updating, but are nothing like how they used to be in legendary days past.

    tell me in the past like 8 years, an MMO that released, and is still doing good to this day? ya cant, cause every mmo that has released in like the last 10 years has died off. the only ones that are staying alive are doing so because of their long histories.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2020-02-25 at 11:23 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    This. And this is literally the opposite of the market dying. Finally there is a market not just one complacent game with a monopoly on the genre. There is an incentive to really improve. You give your all in Shadowlands or subs go bye bye.
    Though the market is probably by far smaller than during the 00 years and the early 10 years. Back then, MMORPGs where the biggest genre when it comes to online gaming and World of Warcraft held a near monopoly with the exception of the oldschool ones with a niche audience, because the expectations where so ridiculously high and anything below a few million subscribers and being the WoW killer was deemed a failure and put on life support. MMORPGs are not the biggest online genre anymore, battle royal games are and the entire online gaming market is by far more diverse now and a more social experience accross most genres, when back in the Day MMORPGs where the kind of games where you build a community, hang out with friends and make new ones. Combined with the smaller audience, there are a few steady competitors nowadays, with Teso and FF14 being the biggest. They are still nowhere near as big as WoW, but they have their numbers and they have reached a point where they are going nowhere, looking at the history of FF11, FF14 will probably be updated until the entire story is finished and the next Online Final Fantasy is on the way.

  7. #107
    Scarab Lord Asmodias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    If MMO market is not in decline, where did all the players go from the genre?
    They found porn... or Jesus... or both.


    Retired | Avatar and Signature by Shyama

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Sadly, they don't. Hence the 1.5 mill active subs.
    Link proving that sub number, please.

  9. #109
    When mmo's first gained popularity, online multi player gaming as a whole was in its infancy. Now, pretty much everything has some form of online multiplayer. For those whose main attraction was competition and online gaming, WoW was a strong contender. Over the years, the options have grown substantially. Racing games, FPS, fighting, RPG, Sports, Indie - nearly all have countless online multiplayer options.

    Quality RPG releases over the years, some of the best in a long time over the last 5 or so years, have given those wanting a story driven RPG a superior alternative, in terms of story telling, gameplay, and visuals. Consoles have no doubt had an impact as well, with them producing stunning 4k visuals on massive screens and the comfort of your couch, that is pretty hard to resist.

    The competition is strong, alternatives are strong, and we are graced with more options than ever before.

    - RPG on both console and pc with far superior stories, visuals, and more engaging combat
    - Endless alternatives for online gaming in general
    - Competitive PvP is better suited to Mobas, and there are plenty of choices there as well
    - The lure of F2P games

    Players are were once condensed into wows playerbase because there was considered no real competition if you wanted a great multiplayer RPG, RPG pvp, strong story telling, decent visuals etc etc. But like i said, over the years, they have been surpassed in every aspect other than Raids, and even then, many prefer 'raiding' in other games (not me, havnt found anything close, although SWTOR showed some promise in this area)

    Once, WoW was an industry leader, and although its still no doubt successful, it is just one of the many options available now.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Sadly, they don't. Hence the 1.5 mill active subs.
    I would love a source for that number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Only an incompetent team cannot please most of the haters AND most of those who like the status-quo.
    You do know it's impossible to please both sides, even "most" of both sides, right? By trying to appease both sides, you'll end up appeasing neither.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Link proving that sub number, please.
    Do you really believe they have a link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I would love a source for that number.
    Again, do you really think they have a source?

  12. #112
    if i was a teen in current year i would probably also avoid old clunky MMO's and play modern online games instead.

  13. #113
    Epic! Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Do you really believe they have a link?

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    Again, do you really think they have a source?
    Of course they don't, everyone knows spreading sub numbers is basically pulling from your ass, since they aren't advertised anymore.

    That said, yeah the MMO market is in decline, especially for making them. MMOs cost a metric ton more than a regular game, and have even more in maintenance costs. Making a new one is a huge risk for any company trying to spread into it, and with a sub price especially you already have hard set competition. For the most part the big three (WoW, FFXIV, ESO) take up the majority of peoples time, but MMO's and forced group/online play is becoming less popular with people. Hell a lot of the newer ideologies in WoW are based on those from other, non-MMO games.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.

    If you think that WoW is in a decline because of some bad game design decisions, then you still believe the game can be turned around with some better game design decisions and not be in a decline anymore.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?

    Pick your battles wisely.
    MMO Market was never that big. The swollen 12m number was just word of mouth.

  15. #115
    "The MMO market is dying"

    If the video of the devs getting Booed about mobile games is any indication, it's not DYING, the stubborn jackasses pretending to be devs are KILLING it.

    "Don't you have phones?" Yes but I play on a PC and find mobile games boring and un-engaging.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Again, do you really think they have a source?
    Oh, I am 99.9999999999% sure they don't have a link for actual numbers, but every once in a blue moon you get to see someone going "AH-HAH!" and showing a link... only for said link to be proven to either be fudged data, or incomplete data.

    I mean, I still remember when people used to use Warcraft Census and the now defunct RealmPop websites as source of actual information regarding subscriber and active players numbers.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    It pretty much is. Some people have apparently missed tho MOBA craze, replaced by the Battle Royale craze and who knows what will come next. Their popularity crushes whatever miniscule growth FF14 might have had, if any. Do they even post official numbers? WoW certainly doesn't, but people still keep spouting random numbers which supposedly prove their point.
    The only numbers they post are accounts made afaik.
    As of August 2018, 14m accounts. December 2019, 18m accounts. Thats about a 28% increase.
    Now, are the subs that high? No. I wanna say its around 1-3m and has been the case for a while but they haven’t ever released any sub numbers.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?
    Or maybe the business model is in decline? Subscription based model is good. Look at the internet. Look at the phone. Look Netflix. All these are subscription based. So the business model is valid and good.

    Part of the problem I think is that Blizzard needs to continue to push regular content as part of their subscription model. A year long without meaningful content will cause decline. They also seems to mix different revenue streams within the game. Paid services like server change. That might have worked 10 years ago. Micro-transaction. Expansion cost.

    Now, expectation are higher and some would consider some of their services should be part of the subscription rather than an additional charge.

    I think Blizzard needs to revise their business model because I think many consider Blizzard to be milking their brand with all these additional charges. They really did not have much serious competition which made them sit too comfortable in their throne without worry.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    MMO Market was never that big. The swollen 12m number was just word of mouth.
    Not to mention the inflated number due to hour to hour subscription model in china.

  20. #120
    MMO genre is absolutely in decline. Just like MOBAs are. And soon to be the Battle Royale genre.

    These are essentially niche markets that experienced very explosive but temporary popularity. The "newness" is gone and the majority of gamers have moved on. In WoW's case its popularity was largely due to the success of WC3 but also that its release coincided with time that most Americans were switching from dial-up to high-speed internet.


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