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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwijello View Post
    "The MMO market is dying"

    If the video of the devs getting Booed about mobile games is any indication, it's not DYING, the stubborn jackasses pretending to be devs are KILLING it.

    "Don't you have phones?" Yes but I play on a PC and find mobile games boring and un-engaging.
    Imagine thinking mobile games are targeted at neckbeards attending a gaming convention.

    Their mistake was announcing it to an audience that was not the target, not doing it in the first place.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwijello View Post
    "The MMO market is dying"

    If the video of the devs getting Booed about mobile games is any indication, it's not DYING, the stubborn jackasses pretending to be devs are KILLING it.

    "Don't you have phones?" Yes but I play on a PC and find mobile games boring and un-engaging.
    Good for you, but mobile "gamers" outnumber pc gamers

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Good for you, but mobile "gamers" outnumber pc gamers
    Not at a blizzcon. mobile gamers aren't gamers, they're people who play games when they have to wait somewhere or shit.

    that's why blizz was booed

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.
    Because another 15 years of a declining marked where they pull out 100x as much as they invest, slowly declining to 1x is still earning a fuckton more money than just shutting it down at a whim. That's how businesses operate. Many businesses have periods where they sell at a loss because it's cheaper than halting production for the same time.

    Even if they reach a point where they don't pull out more than they put in, they might still continue just to keep customers until they're ready to launch a new product.

  5. #125
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tell me, if MMOs are in such a decline, why...

    a) FFXIV is getting bigger and better with each expansion

    and

    b) Classic was able to more than double (!) WoWs subscriber numbers during its release

    In general I agree, the genre is declining but it can be stopped if you do something about it. Turning your game into a grind fest ARPG or whatever like Blizzard did in BfA is not helping anyone. It basically ruined retail. The recent sub numbers are abysmal and so is most stuff that Blizzard throws out at the moment.
    that final fantasy was good to begin with is a opinion not a fact
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    In other countries like Canada the population has chosen to believe in hope, peace and tolerance. This we can see from the election of the Honourable Justin Trudeau who stood against the politics of hate and divisiveness.

  7. #127
    I dont think its dying, its just stale. Running an MMO cost a lot, and right now theres no new ideas, and the ones with great ideas died off because of lack of content or meaningful changes i.e. wildstar, and secret world. Its also hard for new mmos to start up because marketing teams want products that have thr potential to make the most and so far the only ones are WoW and FFXIV with a few smaller games in tow.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow
    It may be something you dislike but LOTS of people love hunting for transmogs and many casual players ( the vast majority of wow players) do LFR to get the story without having to deal with organised raids and large guilds.

    For me personally, what is causing wow's decline is the grind expected /needed to function on the higher levels of the game, especially if you enjoy playing more than 1 character at a time. I wish many of the grindy things (AP, Essences, Rep) were for your account and not per character.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow
    Yes. More things to do and more lively world killed wow.

  10. #130
    The problem with the MMO market is:

    1. Blizzard no longer knows how to design games.
    2. They have a choke hold on the MMO market.

    Blizzard is driving the MMO market into the ground by slowly turning WoW into D3. D3 was a disaster and WoW is turning into a disaster as well as they insist on going this route for some reason.

    Blizzard no longer understand show to design games. The FIRST thing you do when you sit down and design a game is ask "why does the video game market NEED the game I am about to produce?" If you cannot answer that, don't bother making the game. In other words, you need a "value add". Your game needs to offer something that gamers cannot get anywhere else. You can make a case that Path of Exile has a "value add" in that they pump out updates people really enjoy at a faster rate than any other ARPG on the market. So, if you crave fast, quality updates in your ARPG, the ONLY place to go is GGG and Path of Exile. That's a "value add".

    When I look at modern offerings by Blizzard, like Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, WoW, Heroes of the Storm, or Overwatch, none of them do anything special. There's is nothing about them that screams "you can't get this anywhere else but Blizzard". Its just blah. It feels more like Blizzard is behind the curve, trying to release new features to ride the current trend, instead of setting a trend. That's a bad place to be. Blizzard is the Zune when other gaming companies are the Apple products.

    I remember reading how Bobby Kotick got excited about Overwatch when he saw it and said "yah this is the game Blizzard should be making!!!!" He's an idiot. They should NOT have made Overwatch. He has no expertise in this. But maybe he pushed them into a bad decision. Now they have a mess over there that they are trying to fix with a sequel and I doubt that will work well.
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    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Good for you, but mobile "gamers" outnumber pc gamers
    Well then lets shit on PC gamers and make stupid excuses as to why their PC games SUCK as of late.... but then so do their mobile games. Good for you for being captain obvious...

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    If MMO market is not in decline, where did all the players go from the genre?
    MOBAS and other games. Just because one plays an MMO doesn't mean they will continually play MMOs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The problem with the MMO market is:

    1. Blizzard no longer knows how to design games.
    2. They have a choke hold on the MMO market.

    Blizzard is driving the MMO market into the ground by slowly turning WoW into D3. D3 was a disaster and WoW is turning into a disaster as well as they insist on going this route for some reason.

    Blizzard no longer understand show to design games. The FIRST thing you do when you sit down and design a game is ask "why does the video game market NEED the game I am about to produce?" If you cannot answer that, don't bother making the game. In other words, you need a "value add". Your game needs to offer something that gamers cannot get anywhere else. You can make a case that Path of Exile has a "value add" in that they pump out updates people really enjoy at a faster rate than any other ARPG on the market. So, if you crave fast, quality updates in your ARPG, the ONLY place to go is GGG and Path of Exile. That's a "value add".

    When I look at modern offerings by Blizzard, like Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, WoW, Heroes of the Storm, or Overwatch, none of them do anything special. There's is nothing about them that screams "you can't get this anywhere else but Blizzard". Its just blah. It feels more like Blizzard is behind the curve, trying to release new features to ride the current trend, instead of setting a trend. That's a bad place to be. Blizzard is the Zune when other gaming companies are the Apple products.

    I remember reading how Bobby Kotick got excited about Overwatch when he saw it and said "yah this is the game Blizzard should be making!!!!" He's an idiot. They should NOT have made Overwatch. He has no expertise in this. But maybe he pushed them into a bad decision. Now they have a mess over there that they are trying to fix with a sequel and I doubt that will work well.
    Which is it? You guys claim that WoW is turning into D3 and D3 is turning into WoW. It cannot be both.

  13. #133
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    oh shit they released their numbers!?
    if you could link those please i would love to see them.
    Actually, if you want to claim that Blizz has 12 million subs, you are the one making the Russell's Teapot claim, so it rests on you to support your claim.

    Blizz stopped reporting WoW subscriptions after the WoD debacle. If WoW was remotely near being back to 12 million subscriptions, they would absolutely be crowing about it across all corners of the web, and it would be on the first page of their financial reports.

    Instead, they talk about all their online properties (including, for example, Overwatch and Hearthstone) in terms of MAU (monthly active users) which is a bit deceptive since all someone has to do is log into 3 games one time each in a month, and you have 3 MAUs. And that number has been clearly in decline.

    I'm sure you'll doubt this statement as well, so I will point you to their financial reports where you can see for yourself. Click each annual report, note the MAUs for Blizz properties and notice the trend is overall very much down, not up.

    https://investor.activision.com/annual-reports

  14. #134
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Actually, if you want to claim that Blizz has 12 million subs, you are the one making the Russell's Teapot claim, so it rests on you to support your claim.

    Blizz stopped reporting WoW subscriptions after the WoD debacle. If WoW was remotely near being back to 12 million subscriptions, they would absolutely be crowing about it across all corners of the web, and it would be on the first page of their financial reports.

    Instead, they talk about all their online properties (including, for example, Overwatch and Hearthstone) in terms of MAU (monthly active users) which is a bit deceptive since all someone has to do is log into 3 games one time each in a month, and you have 3 MAUs. And that number has been clearly in decline.

    I'm sure you'll doubt this statement as well, so I will point you to their financial reports where you can see for yourself. Click each annual report, note the MAUs for Blizz properties and notice the trend is overall very much down, not up.

    https://investor.activision.com/annual-reports
    Where did i claim it has 12 million subs?
    Im asking you where you got your number, and instead of providing evidence, you start trying to lie about what i said.
    that is for sure what someone with actual evidence does.
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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    How do you know the sub numbers are abysmal
    Financial results and the statements they made in the quarterly reports.
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  16. #136
    I tried several MMOs. I wanted to like Rift and Warhammer for example

    WoW just kept being the better game...

    In the “Look at me” age other types of games are better at promoting the individual and hence are more popular.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    FFXIV is not a good example of the mmo market being alive and well it’s grow is pathetically small compared to say wow’s lunch or even tbc when mmos were at there peak.
    I think FFXIV as an example works quite well as it basically contradicts WoWs cycle. WoW began to drastically decline the time FFXIV launched whereas FFXIV steadily grew. Nowhere close to WoWs peaks but it's still something remarkable in a genre that seems to be dying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    that final fantasy was good to begin with is a opinion not a fact
    That can be said about WoW as well. Critical and fanbase appreciation got better and better though for FFXIV with Shadowbringers being praised by mostly everyone.
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  18. #138
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Financial results and the statements they made in the quarterly reports.
    Which has them making far more money then prior years.
    how does more money coming from wow, equal less subs?
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  19. #139
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Gave it a bit of a thought....maybe the MMO market is where it was in 2003? And WoW was just that lightning in a bottle that attracted ppl who would never played MMOs. Obviously they sucked in millions and millions of ppl who never tried and MMO before. Then when they lost interest in WoW, they possibly never looked for another MMO. Or dabbled in GW, SW, LotRo or whatever and were disappointed. Quit MMOs for good.

    I know I won't....

    Also..I distinctively remember ppl in early 1990(game magazines) proclaiming the RPG market being dead...and then Diablo happened.

    Yeah..so what if a market dies. You'll find something else and meanwhile I have 2 more years of ppl bitching how Shadowlands killed WoW to look forward to.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkaTOS View Post
    I think Blizzard is fully capable of doing this type of market research even without the help of The Experts in the forums.
    But also - at the heyday of 11M subs, 90M players had played WoW, what MMO are they playing now?
    Probably a similar situation as I am in. I have played shoot em ups...and FPS...dungeon crawlers, city builders. Diablo. Run and Jumps. Even Text adventures and games that dodge typecasting like Sentinel or Populous.

    You don't need to forever stick to one genre as we who still play WoW do. I mean..I started playing games in 1985 on a C64 and I think I played every genre that was out there
    Last edited by det; 2020-02-26 at 07:29 PM.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW.
    I think Blizzard is fully capable of doing this type of market research even without the help of The Experts in the forums.
    But also - at the heyday of 11M subs, 90M players had played WoW, what MMO are they playing now?

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