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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.

    If you think that WoW is in a decline because of some bad game design decisions, then you still believe the game can be turned around with some better game design decisions and not be in a decline anymore.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?

    Pick your battles wisely.
    I think Blizzard has numbers and trends enough to see where mmo market is going.

    It’s just a miracle that WoW survived 15 years, it will eventually die because new players are far less than freezing or leaving players.

    Market has changed, there’s less and less space for heavy time demanding games (monthly fee is not an issue).

  2. #142
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I think Blizzard has numbers and trends enough to see where mmo market is going.

    It’s just a miracle that WoW survived 15 years, it will eventually die because new players are far less than freezing or leaving players.

    Market has changed, there’s less and less space for heavy time demanding games (monthly fee is not an issue).
    Well..you are right...every game dies, though apparently a few of the "even older than WoW MMOs" still enjoy popularity and live on.

    Is it a miracle that WoW survived 15 years? Or maybe the company actually knows a thing or two about creating games that appeal to players...even if this forum doesn't like to give them credit.

    But hey....whatever. Yeah...at one point companies lose the magic touch..I get it..I was around long enough. I loved Magnetic Scrolls Adventures. I loved Bitmap Brothers. I loved what Peter Molyneux and his studio did. Loved many Sierra games. Who remembers Ultima? I owned a C64 and an Amiga...where are they now? Even ID software went through some rough patches and now it seems they might just be back with Doom Eternal.

  3. #143
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I think FFXIV as an example works quite well as it basically contradicts WoWs cycle. WoW began to drastically decline the time FFXIV launched whereas FFXIV steadily grew. Nowhere close to WoWs peaks but it's still something remarkable in a genre that seems to be dying
    Even then wow’s lost is way way bigger then FF’s growth it’s not that the market shifted to another mmo the majority of the market just up and disappeared with a comparability low amount heading to FF.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow
    Except Final Fantasy has practically all these features and continues to be a success, so maybe your personal gripes aren't indicative of the reason for the decline of wow. Next time use reason and logic instead of feelings, please.

  5. #145
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    The classical mmorpg just like the rts market has died down a lot, games like WoW and genres too are in constant competition with most other genres and even other platforms, how many people would also play pc games if there was no console/mobile platform? I actually know a handful of rl friends who switched to consoles and never touched pc gaming again.

    There is this idea in peoples heads that the only reason WoW isn't at 12~ million subs or more right now is the sheer incompetence of "aCtIvISiOn bLiZzARd" and not stuff like product lifecycles, player crunch and the above mentioned, believe me, bad game design decisions are probably the least affecting factor of those why wow bled a ton of subs.

    But hey, what would all the haters do with their free time? mold? lmao.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Which has them making far more money then prior years.
    how does more money coming from wow, equal less subs?
    You missed what I was saying. I said retail is doing really bad, not World of Warcraft in general. All of the important revenues in Q3 and Q4 2019 regarding WoW came from Classic, which is even stated in the quarterly reports.

    This is from the Q3/19 report:

    World of Warcraft® Classic added record number of subscription plans1 in Q3. In Q3, World of Warcraft Classic drove the biggest quarterly increase to subscription plans2 in franchise history, in both the West and East

    Strong World of Warcraft Classic performance in the quarter. Segment revenues lower Y/Y against a comparable that included the World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth expansion

    This is from the Q4/19 report:

    World of Warcraft exited 2019 with an active player community2 more than twice the size of its Q2-ending level

    The last statement is important. Classic more than doubled WoWs active playerbase. Retail did basically nothing in regard of the very good Q4 results. Most of that was Classic. Retail is steadily decaying. And no, Blizzard is by no means making far more money than in prior years. Revenue down, income down, margins plummeting. Q4 is the only outlier and that's to blame on Classic's phenomenal performance.

    Here are their financial numbers for you:

    Q1/17: 41M MAU, $441M revenue / $166M income / 38% margin
    Q2/17: 46M MAU, $566M revenue / $225M income / 40% margin
    Q3/17: 42M MAU, $531M revenue / $168M income / 32% margin
    Q4/17: 37M MAU, $599M revenue / $160M income / 27% margin

    Q1/18: 38M MAU, $480M revenue / $122M income / 25% margin
    Q2/18: 37M MAU, $489M revenue / $133M income / 27% margin
    Q3/18: 37M MAU, $635M revenue / $189M income / 30% margin
    Q4/18: 35M MAU, $686M revenue / $241M income / 35% margin

    Q1/19: 32M MAU, $344M revenue / $55M income / 16% margin
    Q2/19: 32M MAU, $384M revenue / $75M income / 20% margin
    Q3/19: 33M MAU, $394M revenue / $74M income / 19% margin
    Q4/19: 32M MAU, $595M revenue / $260M income / 44% margin

    Quite important comparisons for my statement are the Q3/4 2018 vs. Q3/4 2019 financial results.
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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    MOBAS and other games. Just because one plays an MMO doesn't mean they will continually play MMOs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is it? You guys claim that WoW is turning into D3 and D3 is turning into WoW. It cannot be both.
    It can be both if Blizzard no longer even understands the difference between ARPGs and MMOs and starts turning it all into a hybrid hodgepodge.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    It can be both if Blizzard no longer even understands the difference between ARPGs and MMOs and starts turning it all into a hybrid hodgepodge.
    One, D3 hardly played like an MMO,
    Two, WoW hardly plays like and ARPG.
    Three, games need to evolve or else they stagnate. Blizzard has been historically good at following gaming/gamer trends. The issues seem to stem from people who do not like change and growth, and would prefer things to be as they remember them when they were "good"

    There was a satire post yesterday that perfectly describes this. And it's basically a back in my day things were better, you kinds and your long hair and Rock 'n' Roll music have it so easy today mentality.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    If MMO market is not in decline, where did all the players go from the genre?
    they stopped playing games and focus on their lives.

    teens nowadays dont play mmorpgs - most play mobile games.

    its geenration change.

  10. #150
    In the end it boils down to why care. Powerless to change it if it were and if you want to or not believe it the internet is full of shit you can twist around to make you feel better about it. Either way.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by sopeonaroap View Post
    Not at a blizzcon. mobile gamers aren't gamers, they're people who play games when they have to wait somewhere or shit.

    that's why blizz was booed
    Doesn't change the fact that mobile games are more profitable nowadays. And even on the PC market, classical mmos, because there is a much higher diversity in online gaming nowadays. The market doesn't cares about your feelings.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    But it IS dying

    Literally every MMO that isnt WoW and to a lesser extent FFXIV is struggling.

    Wildstar failed, Skyforge failed, Rift failed, Tera failed, Blade and soul failed, Black desert failed, Archeage failed. Guild wars 2 is on life support and EA is sharpening their axe to chop Swtors head off. If the 5th biggest mmo doesent have the income to make a STORY focused expansion last longer than 3 hours something is off

    Only phenomenon is Eso as they are pumping out shitloads of content. Their problem however is that they never innovate. If you look at right now and at launch there is literally no difference in gameplay save new classes

    Same way ever RTS that isnt Age of Empires and Starcraft is dead
    Wildstar did fail, however the rest of them are doing fine and are still receiving updates. Whether you enjoy them or not is an entirely different conversation, however they are all still alive and doing well enough to receive updates...which is the opposite of failing.

    SWTOR isn't going anywhere any time soon, which is good and bad. It's certainly not dying, but it's not receiving updates very quickly either, and the updates aren't substantial as you noted, but again...it's FAR from dead.

  13. #153
    Tbh it's a valid argument and should make Blizzard realize 2 things:
    1. It's more important to cater to existing players than trying to broaden your audience because there isn't that much potential to expand anymore
    2. Extreme timeconsuming and grindy games are very, very niche and also that niche is mostly taken by korean / chinese mmos, so no point trying to copy these

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    One, D3 hardly played like an MMO,
    Two, WoW hardly plays like and ARPG.
    Three, games need to evolve or else they stagnate.
    An ARPG is defined as ACTION. Tons of stuff on your screen whizzing by and you exhausted trying to keep up. Loads of monsters that can be killed in a few hits (and they can kill you in a few hits). You have few skills. The game is about macro: trying to herd and handle massive amounts of enemies at once.



    An MMO is defined as the opposite. Its you vs 1 mob. Both have huge health pools. Combat involves a huge array of skills that you use with either a rotation or priority system or a cast sequence. For example in Classic WoW, you level up in the Barrens and fight one quillboar and have to be VERY careful to not aggro another or you die, plus watch out for stealth or you die, plus kill it before it flees or you die. Combat is slow. Its a more thinking man's game. Its about micro. Social community is a huge thing.



    It was never a question of "evolving". Its more like they are two VERY different playstyles. The design is such that you play World of Warcraft for a while until you get bored of slow play, then you swap to Diablo 3 for a while to get frantic play that has you on the edge of your seat, then when you are exhausted you go back to WoW. When you mix genres, when both Diablo 3 and Wow are half MMO and half ARPG, it becomes all samey-same. It kills incentive to have BOTH games. If WoW is doing both things and becomes an MMOARPG, then there is no need to make Diablo 4.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2020-02-27 at 08:16 PM.

  15. #155
    I would argue wow hurt itself in the long term by trying to open its game up to people without much interest in mmos.

    Every expansion for the most part feels like a different game besides raiding as it struggles to reinvent the wheel by making it square...

  16. #156
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    The MMO playerbase is larger than ever before and that just means there is more opportunity in the market aswell. The thing is, that there is just SOOOO much more competion in the MMO market, that it is really hard to break through with a quality game, that can suck up a larger part of the market.

    So yeah, not only is saying "the MMO market is dying" a direct lie, but also a proven bad thing to say when it comes to valueing a market. People said that old school games were out together with metrodvanias some years ago, and suddenly we have a huge boom in that area with Shovel Knight and Hollowknight. Genres do not die out, they just need a break sometimes and then a great game to respark it.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    An ARPG is defined as ACTION. Tons of stuff on your screen whizzing by and you exhausted trying to keep up. Loads of monsters that can be killed in a few hits (and they can kill you in a few hits). You have few skills. The game is about macro: trying to herd and handle massive amounts of enemies at once. What you mean are hack and slash games, which are a sub-group of action role playing games.

    Actually not. An action rpg is defined by being a gamethat emphasizes physical challenges, including hand–eye coordination and reaction-time while also incorperating typical rpg mechanics, like a leveling system, classes or an equipment system. For example the Dark Souls games and Soulsborne games in general are action games where you predominantly fight single or smaller sizes of opponents at once which emphasizes a more tactical, careful and reaction based playstyle compared to other games in the genre which for example emphasize button smashing against armies of opponents.

    An MMO is defined as the opposite. Its you vs 1 mob. Both have huge health pools. Combat involves a huge array of skills that you use with either a rotation or priority system or a cast sequence. For example in Classic WoW, you level up in the Barrens and fight one quillboar and have to be VERY careful to not aggro another or you die, plus watch out for stealth or you die, plus kill it before it flees or you die. Combat is slow. Its a more thinking man's game. Its about micro. Social community is a huge thing.



    It was never a question of "evolving". Its more like they are two VERY different playstyles. The design is such that you play World of Warcraft for a while until you get bored of slow play, then you swap to Diablo 3 for a while to get frantic play that has you on the edge of your seat, then when you are exhausted you go back to WoW. When you mix genres, when both Diablo 3 and Wow are half MMO and half ARPG, it becomes all samey-same. It kills incentive to have BOTH games. If WoW is doing both things and becomes an MMOARPG, then there is no need to make Diablo 4.
    Not really. A MMO simply defines video games which are designed to play online with dozens up to thousands of other players on a server, as opposed to regular multi-player games which also could be played offline, for example through LAN or a shared console and which consists of a smaller number of players who share the game world with you, regularily 4, sometimes more, sometimes less.

    And World of Warcraft are actually rather similar in terms of playstyle, considering how the battle-system in both games is designed around abilities which are placed on an action bar and which are accessed through mouseclicks or a hotkey, which have a global cooldown but also can possess individual cooldown timers, as opposed to more direct combat methods like for example in Dark Souls, which favor a Controller for controls. Diablo is different due to movement being point and click based, while you can move directly with your keyboard buttons in World of Warcraft. They are and always were similar in that regard and the difference was always on enemy density as well as difficulty, where World of Warcraft is still more based on smaller scale fights with at most a hand full opponents in most cases, because individual enemies to this day inflict more damage to the player. The pacing was only increased, but so was also the complexity of the ability rotations.

    And while combat in classic was slow, it wasn't that much of a thinkin mans game compared to modern wow. Rotations where highly simple with fights consisting mostly of auto-attacks and happening passively and whether or not you could pull single mobs, multiple mobs were managable or you were stuck with multiple mobs you couldn't possibly defeat was based on the whims of the designer from camp to camp. Classic WoW wasn't hard, it just created the illusion of difficulty by being unfair.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    The MMO playerbase is larger than ever before and that just means there is more opportunity in the market aswell. The thing is, that there is just SOOOO much more competion in the MMO market, that it is really hard to break through with a quality game, that can suck up a larger part of the market.

    So yeah, not only is saying "the MMO market is dying" a direct lie, but also a proven bad thing to say when it comes to valueing a market. People said that old school games were out together with metrodvanias some years ago, and suddenly we have a huge boom in that area with Shovel Knight and Hollowknight. Genres do not die out, they just need a break sometimes and then a great game to respark it.
    The classical MMORPG markt is decreasing though, due to a broader diversity of online game genres being available and forms of multiplayer games being currently more popular, especially when it comes to younger players. MMORPGs aren't simply that popular anymore as they were during the hight of World of Warcraft. Survival and Battle Royal games are currently the most popular ones. It could change and classical MMORPGs see a come back or they may slowly die out, we don't know, but their popularity certainly decreased over the last few years.

  18. #158
    Legendary! Nnyco's Avatar
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    Probably because its not an excuse but rather a statement.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by sopeonaroap View Post
    Not at a blizzcon. mobile gamers aren't gamers, they're people who play games when they have to wait somewhere or shit.

    that's why blizz was booed
    Wow. You must feel so proud and special to be a gamer then.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tell me, if MMOs are in such a decline, why...

    a) FFXIV is getting bigger and better with each expansion
    This is just factually wrong. We are actively getting less and less content with each expansion cycle, and the content we are getting is becoming smaller and smaller. We've gone from having multiple dungeons per patch to a single dungeon per patch, 8-man raids that actually had dungeons tied to them to circular arenas, and the "new" content we are getting is recycled from previous expansions with a different coat of paint.

    XIV is probably the worst example to use in defense of the MMO Market not being on the decline. It's actively getting less content as the years go by, which in fact only helps the counterargument, rather than disprove it.
    Last edited by Bladesyphon; 2020-02-28 at 12:53 AM.

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